Micheal Moore, fat clown or champion of truth?

Annoying self serving cúnt!

I did enjoy his documentary entitled 'Canadian Bacon' though.

Biggins wrote: »

Its on record even by the CIA that they trained and funded his men during the Afgan war with the Russians and their occupation of that country.
This is WELL, WELL known.

See:
* http://www.futurepower.net/paz/cia_trained_bin_laden.htm
* http://www.rense.com/general71/al.htm

Now others say different and say its all spin. Only to be expected to be honest.

Funding the mujahideen does not equal training Bin Laden. Also rense.com and Wayne Madsen... Seriously?

Gnobe wrote: »

Greatest American alive today.

No.


See Noam Chomsky.

Gnobe wrote: »

Charlton Heston was the head of the NRA, the association that was promoting gun culture at rallys nearby right after columbine, and many other shootings across the country. Can't he answer tough questions? Moore was well in his rights to ask him, since nobody else does probably.

The footage they showed of Heston speaking was not all footage from the NRA event that Moore said took place after Columbine. He spliced together footage from different events and made it look like they were said at the event that happened immediately after Columbine.

The rifle he got on the spot for opening a bank account: his production team had to specifically arrange that a gun could be there for the purposes of the film. They did not keep them on the premises for obvious reasons.

George Bush talking about the "haves and the have mores" - this was made at a speech where the speakers take the piss out of themselves and the party.

You can say "ah well, he's just making a point", but surely there must be limit to his credibility when his films are littered with half-truths and lies. I definitely support the idea of the dissenting voice, but it should be based in truth.

Biggins wrote: »

So your saying that (when the CIA funded/trained the mujahideen for a decade at least) Bin Laden himself, a mujahideen stayed at home all that time? :rolleyes:

...Because of he didn't, he was indeed involved with the mujahideen and subsequently equally gained knowledge and training from the CIA.
I would have though that was plainly obvious!

not trying to derail this thread but that is not really accurate. there were multiple levels of money flooding into Afghanistan. one was from the USA, one from Saudi and the ME to fund islamic fundamentalism and as it happens to protect their own country. The US was funding anyone who would fight a proxy war and the CIA was deployed because otherwise the US would have risked WW3. Bin Laden was even then anti American and lead the charge managing funds from Saudi. Initially he built transition houses for middle eastern men looking for adventure. actually most were considered nutty and big into the whole suicide thing, something most afghans at the time thought was useless on the battlefield. for instance the weapons bin laden died with (you see them in his videos were taken from a dead russian officer, according to legend...others said he found them). in fact the latter was more likely as bin laden was not a fighter he was an organiser. I honestly cannot remember how many billions flooded in, but it was a lot. It was billions from the US and billions from Saudi and the ME and the US only lead by a small margin.

To give you an example there was a ITV reporter Sandy (sorry cant remember his last name, Gall or Hall was it??). He gave an example when passing through a Bin Laden controlled area that he had to shut up as they tended to execute anyone speaking english as they were assumed to be from the CIA. The CIA routed its money thru the ISI in Pakistan (and that was to remove american fingerprints off the money to avoid pissing the russians off). What America didnt know is that the ISI was not funding Ahmad Shah Massoud (later of the northern league) for example to the same level as others as he was from a different tribe.( Massoud was later killed in a suicide bomb sent from none other then bin laden 2-3 days before the 9/11 assault. in fact by then Massoud was in close contact with the CIA and they supplied him in his fight against the taliban (a small fact Moore leaves out) and had warned the US of the dangers of bin laden. he had tried for years to get CIA help to execute bin laden, but none other then clinton would not approve it even though massoud had the ability and the details of his location. another fact is that masood had warned that his death would be the signal for an attack on the USA. ) Also initially the war was a disaster, the communists were winning and the PDPA who if you want to follow the letter of the law invited the russians in to prop up their regime. the russians had deployed everything from high level assassination teams, sniper teams right up to bombing runs with great success. remember 11 countries had fallen to communism in the previous 5-6 years. the west was loosing the war against communism and badly.

Without the CIA delivering stinger missiles, the war would have ended in favour of communism. bin laden thought it was him but the reality the turning point was a shoulder mounted missile and obviously the horrible fighting on the ground. the deployment of stingers meant limited air cover and stopped the dreaded chopper raids. incidentally the CIA paid 20grand a pop at the end of the war to collect stingers. To say the CIA supported Bin Laden is not borne by the facts. Did they flood money, yes they did, did they train mujahadeen yes they did, were they bin laden's...no. (this is why bin laden felt his 'army' could defeat saddams, as he had just beaten russia in his eyes, and was appalled at the saudis rejecting them and calling in the US in the first gulf war) he refused and he had more than enough money from saudi. Now will you find someone on his team that may have, i am sure you can...it was a rag tag army at best but was bin laden in weekly comms calls with Langley..no he wasnt, he didnt need to be he had all the money he needed and the skills from his father construction company in saudi.

That is yet another meme but is not true. bin laden was even then a big man for the whole caliphate thing. also hindsight is a wonderful thing in these situations and can be twisted to say what you want. the US had no interest in building up a country (something michael moore and the left said we should NOT do NOW in afghanistan but yet complained at the time that they let the taliban win, sorry you cant have it both ways) so when the war ended they did as well. what i find almost laughable is the left for years blamed Reagan for abandoning Afghanistan and letting it fall to the islamists BUT are now saying we should do exactly that again! really is a case of history repeating.

so what has this to do with michael moore...a lot actually. he may have cool one liners, slick comments that are funny, but the truth needs a page...and thats the sad reality with the truth...it never is quite as cool as a lie...

apologies for the long post...

aint that the truth...;)