Shíte flats and Rent supplement not accepted

Ray Palmer · 09-05-2011 04:50PM

It's really funny that people who obviously know nothing about being a landlords perpetuate incorrect beliefs as pure fact.

If you ever had to deal with rent allowance you would discover why a landlords doesn't want to deal with it. Namely you might not get paid either due to the tenant or the system. This is the main reason LL avoid the system.

The tax office cannot access the health boards records for investigation with out express permission on an individual record.

If you ever see somebody and you think they look a state think what they do to a flat that they don't own nor pay for. Most flats end up the way they are because of tenants. Looker at the flats less than 10 years old and think who got it like that. I was made help clean a place my parents owned on more than one occasion and could not understand how they could live like that. One couple had two black bags of rubbish (including nappies) behind the sofa, we came down to see if they were alright as tenants though there may be something dead in the flat.

Cuddlesworth · 09-05-2011 04:56PM

Kinetic^ wrote: »

Banks are actually doing their jobs these days and being careful about their lending. Add to that the high interest rates which only going up and people can't afford to buy. This is putting landlords back in the driving seat when it comes to rents.

Lol, not when property prices keep decreasing. Rent is still decreasing steadily.

Cool Mo D · 09-05-2011 04:58PM

How do landlords know if someone is on rent supplement? Isn't it paid directly to the tenant, and passed on to the landlord in whatever way?

RainbowRose81 · 09-05-2011 07:31PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

It's really funny that people who obviously know nothing about being a landlords perpetuate incorrect beliefs as pure fact.

If you ever had to deal with rent allowance you would discover why a landlords doesn't want to deal with it. Namely you might not get paid either due to the tenant or the system. This is the main reason LL avoid the system.

The tax office cannot access the health boards records for investigation with out express permission on an individual record.

If you ever see somebody and you think they look a state think what they do to a flat that they don't own nor pay for. Most flats end up the way they are because of tenants. Looker at the flats less than 10 years old and think who got it like that. I was made help clean a place my parents owned on more than one occasion and could not understand how they could live like that. One couple had two black bags of rubbish (including nappies) behind the sofa, we came down to see if they were alright as tenants though there may be something dead in the flat.

Well, the problem is in the system. If they they didn't accept rent allowance where are all the unemployed and lower income earning people going to live? It would be extra hard for landlords to rent then. The whole system is not right anyways, the welfare system is paying landlords for the unemployed people to rent. I heard it can take up to 8 years for people on welfare that can't afford to buy their own house to be housed by the council. In the uk its six months, most systems is not working here.

Most landlords have the ability to suss potential tenants out to know if they will be good tenants or not. Some landlords don't really care much about their property as long as it's still standing thats why there are so many flats in bad conditions for years of not being cared for and the inevitable wear and tear long through the years.

BostonB · 09-05-2011 11:46PM

Cool Mo D wrote: »

How do landlords know if someone is on rent supplement? Isn't it paid directly to the tenant, and passed on to the landlord in whatever way?

Part of the form will need to be filled in by your landlord or their agent.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/rent_supplement.html#ld1a9a

Darlughda · 10-05-2011 12:03AM

Ok, I fess up. I was rather drunk starting this thread. Golly, did any of you guess?:D
However, my op stands. Even if the dodgy fonts are tricky to read.

I do not accept the bs argument about RA tenants being more dodgy paying their rent than your average salary paid PAYE workers.

No landlord expects a direct payment from a salary to their account.

The argument that Rent Supplement is payed first to the tenant and then the landlord who might not see it because the RS tenant is less reliable than a PAYE worker is just ridiculous.

No worker has a payment direct to their landlord before their salary arrives in their account.
The idea that the Rent Supplement person is somehow less trustworthy than your average joe is simply socio-economic discrimination, borne out of nothing other that targetting all recepients of Rent Supplement with the same brush.

There are many, many reasons why a person may be in receipt of rent allowance.
Disability, illness, old age, being widowed are just a few of the many, yet check out daft and you will see the RA not accepted proving that the stereotype of skanger joe downing de cans as he shoots up more heroin for the craic, is more a priority for these landlords than any recession and the realities facing people.

I went to see a few places today. I am looking myself, but I also work voluntarily to assist others who do not have English as their first language to find accomodation.

It is shocking what slum landlords are out there, and the exhorbitant rents they expect for dodgy places. To even describe what I mean regarding dodgy is another long post. Possibly with bad fonts again.

This post is long enough, but I am sickened by what I have seen here in Dublin, knowing by seeing with my own eyes the reality of what people are forced to accept.

steddyeddy · 10-05-2011 12:05AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Haggle like a cattle dealer!
The landlord haggled over the price, the mortage, the agents fee, the banks rates, the banks terms, the tradesmen and any furnishing bought
Yet some seem offended if you try to haggle the rent :rolleyes:

I lived in a bedsit in Drumcondra, there were presses above my bed which collapsed on me as I slept and I got concussion and a bleeding cut on my head. Could have been a lot worse. You'd read about me in some freak accident newspaper report, tenant died as they slept.

Landlord did feck all and took seven weeks to replace them and I lost two days from work

Do landlords understand every day the place is vacant they lose money? It's better to have a reliable tenant paying a steady rent then asking too much and losing good tenants?
Short term greed over long term gain? Seems not

You got it in one. Some landlords seem to think they will get away with ridiculous prices for ever. A lot havent a clue in fairness.

Darlughda · 10-05-2011 12:25AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

You got it in one. Some landlords seem to think they will get away with ridiculous prices for ever. A lot havent a clue in fairness.

The mad thing is eddy, even though we are supposedly coming up to the glut in the market time (students vacating etc), most of the shytty bedsits (in Dublin), have suddenly become €600 pm and Rent Allowance not accepted. (Just check Daft if ya don't believe me).

Yet, the very ceiling on rent allowance at the moment(in Dublin), is between 520-528 per month (for a single person like myself, who comprise the majority of the Rent Supplement beneficiarys),depending on the community welfare officer.

So, how on earth can people maintain that Rent Allowance or Supplement to give its correct title, is maintaining an artificial market rate??

mikemac · 10-05-2011 12:35AM

Darlughda wrote: »

The mad thing is eddy, even though we are supposedly coming up to the glut in the market time (students vacating etc), most of the shytty bedsits (in Dublin), have suddenly become €600 pm and Rent Allowance not accepted. (Just check Daft if ya don't believe me).

Yet, the very ceiling on rent allowance at the moment(in Dublin), is between 520-528 per month (for a single person like myself, who comprise the majority of the Rent Supplement beneficiarys),depending on the community welfare officer.

So, how on earth can people maintain that Rent Allowance or Supplement to give its correct title, is maintaining an artificial market rate??

There is a hierarchy to it
Go look at daft and landlords just love their "young professionals".
Sure ring a landlord and the first question is if you're working.
If they can't get a worker then can go with a student. Many students get grants or help from parents or work part time so non paying students are rare enough. And it's not like you'll be having a party in a bedsit. In fact, you may be embarressed to bring people back to the bedsit!

Sadly to say, landlords last option is rent allowance tenants. They'd do anything for a working person over a person on welfare.

Finally the social welfare don't pay the full rent, you pay an additional amount. It's not a huge amount but you do pay extra. So if it's €528 per month, the tenant tops that up. I don't know the exact amount but we're not far off €600. (maybe you can correct me on this

)

The reason the landlords advertises when you leave and states no rent allowance is they want a working person

And yes, rent allowance is creating a floor and people working have to compete against this.
Cut rent allowance, the landlord has no option but to drop and rents go down for everyone

Darlughda · 10-05-2011 12:40AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

There is a hierarchy to it
Go look at daft and landlords just love their "young professionals".
Sure ring a landlord and the first question is if you're working.
If they can't get a worker then can go with a student. Many students get grants or help from parents or work part time so non paying students are rare enough. And it's not like you'll be having a party in a bedsit. In fact, you may be embarressed to bring people back to the bedsit!

Sadly to say, landlords last option is rent allowance tenants. They'd do anything for a working person over a person on welfare.

Finally the social welfare don't pay the full rent, you pay an additional amount. It's not a huge amount but you do pay extra. So if it's €528 per month, the tenant tops that up. I don't know the exact amount but we're not far off €600. (maybe you can correct me on this )

The reason the landlords advertises when you leave and states no rent allowance is they want a working person

And yes, rent allowance is creating a floor and people working have to compete against this.
Cut rent allowance, the landlord has no option but to drop and rents go down for everyone

The outrageously, ironic and fcuked thing about this is, a student is more likely to wreck a gaff, not give a rats ass and do a runner without payin rent than a person who is older, has struggled hard and is on the welfare through circumstance and chance!

AskMyChocolate · 10-05-2011 01:22AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

There is a hierarchy to it
Go look at daft and landlords just love their "young professionals".
Sure ring a landlord and the first question is if you're working.
If they can't get a worker then can go with a student. Many students get grants or help from parents or work part time so non paying students are rare enough. And it's not like you'll be having a party in a bedsit. In fact, you may be embarressed to bring people back to the bedsit!

Sadly to say, landlords last option is rent allowance tenants. They'd do anything for a working person over a person on welfare.

Finally the social welfare don't pay the full rent, you pay an additional amount. It's not a huge amount but you do pay extra. So if it's €528 per month, the tenant tops that up. I don't know the exact amount but we're not far off €600. (maybe you can correct me on this )

The reason the landlords advertises when you leave and states no rent allowance is they want a working person

And yes, rent allowance is creating a floor and people working have to compete against this.
Cut rent allowance, the landlord has no option but to drop and rents go down for everyone

It's €520 p/m. Max including the tenant's contribution. The rent allowance is €90.50 p/w and the tenant pays €29.50 p/w. I would imagine that the reason that they are advertised at €600 is because a) the LL is hoping that (s)he can rent it at this price to a working person and b) if (s)he can't it enables them to pick and choose from possible welfare tenants, while being able to give a legitimate excuse for not letting it to somebody they don't like the look of (i.e. the rent is non-negotiable).

You are right with the floor though. My LL dropped my rent (reluctantly)from €550 to €520 when the Max. was lowered, as I was able to explain to him that I wasn't legally allowed to pay that amount even if I wanted to make up the difference out of my pension. I don't think he fancied the idea of evicting a good tenant even though he would have had the right to as €550 was what was agreed in the lease.

mikemac · 10-05-2011 01:29AM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

I don't think he fancied the idea of evicting a good tenant even though he would have had the right to as €550 was what was agreed in the lease.

Thanks for the correction.

Sadly, there are a lot of short sighted landlords and for the sake of €30 would let their good tenants leave and then wonder why the place is empty two months later.
Good tenants are golden, for the sake of a few extra euro a month they are worth hanging onto.

Just one month vacant and that would wipe out any extra gains from higher rent

When I rented a bedsit in Drumcondra the landlord put the rent up €50. I was a long term tenant, there over two years. Said no way, left and it was still on daft six weeks later. So around €700 in rent lost for the sake of insisting on an extra €50 a month.

When I moved in Dublin in 2004, tenants queued to see rooms and flats and if it was half decent you brought your deposit in cash. Those days are gone!

BostonB · 10-05-2011 01:32AM

Darlughda wrote: »

The outrageously, ironic and fcuked thing about this is, a student is more likely to wreck a gaff, not give a rats ass and do a runner without payin rent than a person who is older, has struggled hard and is on the welfare through circumstance and chance!

A student will pay in advance and doing a runner isn't really the problem. The LL gets the place back then and can re-rent it. Its tenants, paying in arrears, who stop paying and who don't leave who are the problem. An ad looking for "professional" people doesn't want students.

Jesus Wept · 10-05-2011 01:34AM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Whoops, hold on a minute there, that's an illegal anticompetitive practise.

If anyone hears about this or has any complaints, I'd recommend going to the EU competition authority, since you're unlikely to get much satisfaction from the public sector landlord types here.

Its not as unlikely as you think, the first ever anticompetitive convictions in the EU were in Galway, levied on petrol station owners operating as a cartel. The more complaints the better!

YFlyer · 10-05-2011 01:46AM

From those in Limerick, Ollie Hassett, enough said.

Ray Palmer · 10-05-2011 09:15AM

RainbowRose81 wrote: »

Well, the problem is in the system. If they they didn't accept rent allowance where are all the unemployed and lower income earning people going to live? It would be extra hard for landlords to rent then. The whole system is not right anyways, the welfare system is paying landlords for the unemployed people to rent. I heard it can take up to 8 years for people on welfare that can't afford to buy their own house to be housed by the council. In the uk its six months, most systems is not working here.

Most landlords have the ability to suss potential tenants out to know if they will be good tenants or not. Some landlords don't really care much about their property as long as it's still standing thats why there are so many flats in bad conditions for years of not being cared for and the inevitable wear and tear long through the years.

I think you missed a major point. These place are for people who are on the lower income levels and don't get rent allowance. These landlords don't accept rent allowance.
Ireland has used a points based system for housing lists which favored single parent families up until recently. They changed it as they realized single men were staying on the list indefinitely. Hence people could stay on the list a very long time. I have heard in the uK it can take a couple of years too depending on the area. Bare in mind they have had much more money than Ireland for years and most of their council housing was built a while ago. It is a bit like wondering why RTE is not as big a BBC is simple economics and history.
Go to any council estate in Ireland and look how people live. These houses started the same and quite often stay in families. Wonder why some are nice and others aren't.
Simply lack of social skills by some people who also go into private rental properties with a chip on their shoulders about landlords like some people here.

RainbowRose81 · 10-05-2011 01:07PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I think you missed a major point. These place are for people who are on the lower income levels and don't get rent allowance. These landlords don't accept rent allowance.
Ireland has used a points based system for housing lists which favored single parent families up until recently. They changed it as they realized single men were staying on the list indefinitely. Hence people could stay on the list a very long time. I have heard in the uK it can take a couple of years too depending on the area. Bare in mind they have had much more money than Ireland for years and most of their council housing was built a while ago. It is a bit like wondering why RTE is not as big a BBC is simple economics and history.
Go to any council estate in Ireland and look how people live. These houses started the same and quite often stay in families. Wonder why some are nice and others aren't.
Simply lack of social skills by some people who also go into private rental properties with a chip on their shoulders about landlords like some people here.

I know many people renting a low incomes they look after their apartments/bedsits very well. There is others who are in privated rented accommodation who don't take care of the place they are living in. You say they lack social skills that is true because their social needs are not met because of the social services and support in this country is poor. So it's no wonder how things are they way they are. Those people who have not much social skills who are livign and behaving the way they are is a result of how they were raised in most cases because their parents didn't have social skills either. They is no point in criticising them they are not entirely to blame how are they to know how to live a normal life. Those people are far far worse of than landlords.

steddyeddy · 10-05-2011 01:28PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Thanks for the correction.

Sadly, there are a lot of short sighted landlords and for the sake of €30 would let their good tenants leave and then wonder why the place is empty two months later.
Good tenants are golden, for the sake of a few extra euro a month they are worth hanging onto.

Just one month vacant and that would wipe out any extra gains from higher rent

When I rented a bedsit in Drumcondra the landlord put the rent up €50. I was a long term tenant, there over two years. Said no way, left and it was still on daft six weeks later. So around €700 in rent lost for the sake of insisting on an extra €50 a month.

When I moved in Dublin in 2004, tenants queued to see rooms and flats and if it was half decent you brought your deposit in cash. Those days are gone!

Thats the problem with the property markey. Your not dealing with business men in any shape or for a lot havent got basic business sense I cant remember the amount of times when I was younger that I had to insist on getting a rent book only to hear the landlord ask me whts that. A lot of landlords bought a few houses during the boom for stupid prices and are using the rent to try and re coup some of their losses. There are some geniune landlords there but there has to be far more regulation out there.

Housing is a social need and when you have a social need controlled by those who either through luck inherited a house or bought a few houses stupidly for insane prices trying to recoup losses things are going to go wrong. Bad landlords needed to be educated as to how to run a business and remember their potentially dealing with long term customers.

A point to rememeber regarding the rent allowance is that a few landlords dont like giving their details or even registering tenants due to whatever ineptitude or dodgy dealings they have going on. There are genuine people in this country who need social housing and require rent allowance before they get that so landlords who refuse rent allowance because they thing that all recipitents of rent allowance are scume havent a clue. A lot of people on rent allowance, some people I grew up with for instance needed rent allowance to get out of abusive houses they lived in and often had landlords refuse to accept rent allowance. Things need to change. Writing to The eu commision is a good idea as some things in this country wont change without outside intervention.

steddyeddy · 10-05-2011 01:31PM

okiss wrote: »

Reading this brings back memories of looking for flats and getting rent allowance.
Places I saw a) had a bare wooden stairs, a room so small a cat could not live in it and the renter was still there smoking since the day he first moved in. b) the place with the carpet there since 1970 or before.The cooker from the same time along with the bed which had seen more action than the local knocking shop. c) the down stairs bedsit with a window the size of 1ft square, the rusty taps and the plug in heater that would have to be on 20 hours a day to heat up the room. Words could not describe some of the places I saw and the rent they wanted for these hovels was unreal.
The best revenge I heard on a scum bag landlord was a from a young I guy I knew living in a student town. The landlord was paid on time, the house was minded but the landlord would not replace or repair anything. The landlord then refused to give them back there deposit. The guy I knew started to asked other students about the LL and found out the address of all the properties he owned before sending a letter to revenue.

That quality I heard of several people contacting revenue lately actually! Things will change. Landlords who take advantage of students who are poor, those who left an abusive home or poor people down on their luck are scum and need to be treated as such.

steddyeddy · 10-05-2011 01:33PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Whoops, hold on a minute there, that's an illegal anticompetitive practise.

If anyone hears about this or has any complaints, I'd recommend going to the EU competition authority, since you're unlikely to get much satisfaction from the public sector landlord types here.

Its not as unlikely as you think, the first ever anticompetitive convictions in the EU were in Galway, levied on petrol station owners operating as a cartel. The more complaints the better!

Fair play to you im glad to see someone knows their rights and is willing to recitfy an injustce.

wild_cat · 10-05-2011 01:43PM

When we were looking for houses a few months ago we had a landlord in Dublin 8 refuse us because we were private and not RA recipients....

He talked about "the health board" the whole time we were viewing and his face dropped when we told him we told him we were private. We left it an hour before calling him to say we were interested and he suddenly had an offer from someone who had viewed it the night before.

We ended up going with a propery managment company who completely vetted us for a kip.

Oh_Noes · 10-05-2011 01:43PM

BostonB wrote: »

RA doesn't not mean getting rent is a sure thing. In many cases its not paid direct to the LL, so a tenant can hold on to it while claiming its delayed, and then do a runner a 3 or 4 months time.

So while I have no doubt tax evasion may be one reason for it, there are also LL who pay tax but who will still not take RA because its puts the LL at a disadvantage. If it works out fine. But it can be abused.

This is a silly argument, why would anything be paid directly from the department to the landlord on behalf on the tenant? People in employment don't have their employer set up a direct debit to the landlord.

Anyone can live in a place and then do a runner without paying the bills whether or not they're in employment.

BostonB · 10-05-2011 01:57PM

Oh_Noes wrote: »

This is a silly argument, why would anything be paid directly from the department to the landlord on behalf on the tenant? People in employment don't have their employer set up a direct debit to the landlord.

Anyone can live in a place and then do a runner without paying the bills whether or not they're in employment.

Indeed. But someone short of money is more likely to miss rent. If the RA is paid directly that can't happen, well not to the RA part anyway.

Oh_Noes · 11-05-2011 12:31AM

BostonB wrote: »

Indeed. But someone short of money is more likely to miss rent. If the RA is paid directly that can't happen, well not to the RA part anyway.

Nope. I'd argue that some RA recipients won't be short of money and some employed people will, and vice versa. The central insinuation your post makes is that because someone isn't in a job, they're less trustworthy than employed tenants. Which would be a very broad brushstroke indeed, particularly in light of the current economic landscape.

Going over the tenant's head straight to the source of the tenant's income opens up a whole can of worms and opportunities for shady dealings on the part of landlords. You'll get bad eggs, on both sides. Linking employment to moral character is, as I said in my previous post; just silly.

sdanseo · 11-05-2011 12:45AM

Rent allowance is too much anyway. People are turning down €25k jobs because they can get €26k tax free when it's included.

Darlughda · 11-05-2011 01:12AM

BostonB wrote: »

Indeed. But someone short of money is more likely to miss rent. If the RA is paid directly that can't happen, well not to the RA part anyway.

Assumptions, again BB, that shows your true colours, particulary those of of a socio-economic discriminatory measure.

A: Many people are frugal, careful, aware of their weekly budgets. They never live beyond their means.

B:Others are reckless, gamble, owe a great deal of debts, pretend everything is ok but might be penniless when it comes to rent day.

Why do you make the assumption that recepients of rent supplement, who do after all include not just the unemployed, but also the sick, the disabled, old age, and widowed are more likely to be B rather than A?

sdonn wrote: »

Rent allowance is too much anyway. People are turning down €25k jobs because they can get €26k tax free when it's included.

Well, you have not a clue about the reality of what life is like for some people. Why on earth do people like you stick your oar in? Where on earth are you getting your ridicolous statement of "People are turning down €25k jobs because they can get €26k tax free when it's included".

It is because of ignorance like this that causes further suffering.

BostonB · 11-05-2011 01:24AM

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Nope. I'd argue that some RA recipients won't be short of money and some employed people will, and vice versa. The central insinuation your post makes is that because someone isn't in a job, they're less trustworthy than employed tenants. Which would be a very broad brushstroke indeed, particularly in light of the current economic landscape.

Going over the tenant's head straight to the source of the tenant's income opens up a whole can of worms and opportunities for shady dealings on the part of landlords. You'll get bad eggs, on both sides. Linking employment to moral character is, as I said in my previous post; just silly.

Theres no problem with sweeping generalizations of LL morals though...

Morality is entirely your insinuation not mine. Its simple logic if you are working you probably have more money. The LL can't go over the tenants head, thats just nonsense. The tenant dictates what way they pay rent. At the end of the day its about making money. If LL felt they could make the same money with the same work, or less work, with RA they wouldn't have no problem accepting it. So theres either a problem with perception, experience, or they are all crooks.

bobmalooka · 11-05-2011 01:27AM

sdonn wrote: »

Rent allowance is too much anyway. People are turning down €25k jobs because they can get €26k tax free when it's included.

and they steal our wimmins too

BostonB · 11-05-2011 01:46AM

Darlughda wrote: »

Assumptions, again BB, that shows your true colours, particulary those of of a socio-economic discriminatory measure.

A: Many people are frugal, careful, aware of their weekly budgets. They never live beyond their means.

B:Others are reckless, gamble, owe a great deal of debts, pretend everything is ok but might be penniless when it comes to rent day.

Why do you make the assumption that recepients of rent supplement, who do after all include not just the unemployed, but also the sick, the disabled, old age, and widowed are more likely to be B rather than A?...

I could suggest it shows you are only looking for discrimination, and are not open to any possibility that its not about that at all.

A LL has no way of knowing if someone is A or B. So its not relevant at all. You can only go on references and a judgment on someones ability to pay. No matter if someone is in A or B, the better the job they have, the better their ability to pay. Its not going to be correct all the time. But its logical guess, no more than that. You can argue I'm wrong, that equally valid in the absence of any stats on it. There are LL who prefer RA as they think at least they'll get the RA each month, its guaranteed. But its not guaranteed at all, AFAIK.

Lets flip it around and you answer the question. How would know if someone is A or B. How would you judge someones ability to pay.

BostonB · 11-05-2011 01:50AM

The Govt at fault here for putting in place such a flawed system. If RA was made more attractive to LL like it was actually guaranteed, it might meet less resistance.

Shíte flats and Rent supplement not accepted

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