Very rural Ireland

Kevin joyce · 07-05-2011 10:59am #1

Do very rural parts of ireland have a future? From 2001-2006 when everybody could get a job places like south connemara had no real jobs.

Jo King · 07-05-2011 11:37am

The reality is that people are going to have to start living in reasonable conurbations. The post office will soon close, the primary school will soon close, the pub has already gone, postal deliveries will drop in frequency and possibly go to the mail box system.Utility providers will be extremely reluctant to service remote areas. When the transport subsidy comes to an end and it becomes too expensive to maintain private vehicles, people will have to leave and move to the towns. Farms are increasing in size with holdings amalgamating. Soon the farmer will no longer live on his land but travel out from a nearby town.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 07-05-2011 2:07pm

I grew up in a rural area, and while it has its advantages, I can't imagine I'll ever live here again.

mikemac · 07-05-2011 2:17pm

I came from such an area, you know, small village but five pubs

There is only one pub nowadays, post office closed and the biggest employer is the local Spar shop. Only shop in the place

There was construction and a lot of the locals made good money labouring but that's all gone

Garda station was a one man operation with a house for the garda but when the garda retired they closed the station.
Well the station is still there and can be used but it's unmanned.

Repeated it every county in Ireland. I see no future or employment in the future for such areas

Denerick · 07-05-2011 2:44pm

These areas rely on farming. Agriculture is the economic activity of rural areas; forget the fantasy of planting a multinational factory in the wilds of Donegal; it makes neither economic or logical sense. Back to basics; small market towns which act as a service provider to the agricultural hinterland. Many towns lack a raison d'etre without these fundamental economic building blocks. Hopefully the global rise in food prices will help spring a rural renewal.

pragmatic1 · 07-05-2011 4:56pm

Its very sad but I think most rural areas are in huge trouble. As Denerick pointed out, the only way for rural areas to survive is by going back to the old reliables such as farming, fishing and tourism.

However, many people I know raise their kids in rural areas and commute to city jobs during the week. If I had a family I'd like to do the same because a rural Irish upbringing is a pretty good one.

Clareboy · 07-05-2011 5:28pm

Bad planning is at the root cause of the problems in rural Ireland. By allowing widespread one off housing and uncontrolled ribbon development, the life blood has been drained out of the villages and small towns with the result that many of our traditional settlements are now devoid of essential services. The fabric of many of our towns has been destroyed giving these places an air of dereliction and decay. Due to our scattered pattern of rural housing, we can never have a functioning public trasport system. Basically, we have screwed up big time!

Harps · 07-05-2011 5:54pm

Yep, one off housing is commonly overlooked but is one of the biggest disasters of the boom. Most N and R roads in the country are littered with housing for their entire length with tiny, dead villages dotted about every 10 miles or so. If the population was centred around towns and density prioritised then at least it'd be possible to provide basic services. Someone builds their house 10 miles from the nearest town and then complains when theres no public transport, no broadband, no local services etc.

We're a country with a population of 5 million yet we only have 5 cities with more than 50,000 people. No major company with any sense is going to set up in a sparsely populated area with no services

LG3 · 07-05-2011 6:21pm

defently prefer rural ireland to the city, livin in dub, i'm realising as my child gets older that, i'd prefer to be livin in the west,.

ninty9er · 07-05-2011 6:52pm

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Its very sad but I think most rural areas are in huge trouble. As Denerick pointed out, the only way for rural areas to survive is by going back to the old reliables such as farming, fishing and tourism.

However, many people I know raise their kids in rural areas and commute to city jobs during the week. If I had a family I'd like to do the same because a rural Irish upbringing is a pretty good one.

It's not sad, it's reality. It's 2011 not 1961. The world has changed, but Irish rural communities haven't. There were never jobs in those rural communities, ask the people there. I'm a huge advocate of farm amalgamations, subsidies should only be paid to farm groups farming a collective 500 acres or more.

Very rural Ireland has a future, but it's a residential and tourist future, we need to move past the fact there are no jobs and work with it. There are certain things dear to my heart that I don't like to see change or decline, but there's fighting a battle and then there's pissing into a hurricane.

Clareboy · 07-05-2011 8:26pm

Harps wrote: »

Yep, one off housing is commonly overlooked but is one of the biggest disasters of the boom. Most N and R roads in the country are littered with housing for their entire length with tiny, dead villages dotted about every 10 miles or so. If the population was centred around towns and density prioritised then at least it'd be possible to provide basic services. Someone builds their house 10 miles from the nearest town and then complains when theres no public transport, no broadband, no local services etc.

We're a country with a population of 5 million yet we only have 5 cities with more than 50,000 people. No major company with any sense is going to set up in a sparsely populated area with no services

I agree with you 100%. The proliferation of totally inappropriate housing in rural areas and the resulting dereliction and decay in the towns and villages has seriously damaged Ireland's overall attraction as a tourist destination. Irrepreable damage has been done to some of our most scenic landscapes in a generation, landscapes that have inspired writers, poets and painters in the past.

This rather peculiar Irish tendancy to want to build in the open countryside began in the 1950s when the first of the ' new bungalows ' went up. Since then, we have had decades of ' bungalow blight' and the most recent trend - ' mansion mania'. All this scattered development has resulted in a totally unsustainable and unhealthy car bound lifestyle. We are certainly facing huge social and environmental problems in this country in the near future.

cyclopath2001 · 07-05-2011 9:15pm

Harps wrote: »

No major company with any sense is going to set up in a sparsely populated area with no services

'decentralisation', anyone?

Reekwind · 07-05-2011 9:35pm

Denerick wrote: »

These areas rely on farming. Agriculture is the economic activity of rural areas; forget the fantasy of planting a multinational factory in the wilds of Donegal; it makes neither economic or logical sense. Back to basics; small market towns which act as a service provider to the agricultural hinterland. Many towns lack a raison d'etre without these fundamental economic building blocks

Somewhat short-sighted, no? If we followed this advice then Ireland would have no industry at all

Historically factories do not go to people; people go to factories. Or, to put it another way, if you build it then they will come. That is, in essence, the whole point of urbanisation. Restricting industry to currently industrialised regions - and relying on "small market towns which act as a service provider to the agricultural hinterland" - is a recipe for nothing short of depopulating half the country. Instead of abandoning small towns, there should be a focus on building industry in them to provide jobs and attract people into the town. Which is an age-old patten: small market town because larger manufacturing town

The problem with past regional development schemes is that there was not enough investment in infrastructure; not enough planning as to where industry should be located; and a reliance on foreign firms to do the job. So instead of a coherent strategy for industrialisation, you got random factories plonked here or there because the land was cheaper or because the local TD was owed a favour

Hopefully the global rise in food prices will help spring a rural renewal

Leaving aside the role of CAP in sustaining the unsustainable, modern-day agriculture not particularly labour intensive. Or rather, its not manpower intensive. Attractions of city life aside, there simply aren't the jobs in farming these days to populate the countryside in the manner of the pre-mechanisation eras

bath handle · 07-05-2011 10:15pm

Factories will only set up where basic services are available in the area. Power supply, telecommunications, transport links etc. There is an article in today Irish independent written by a woman who settled in a remote rural area 20 years ago. Her kids hate it, the place is noise, hours have to be spent driving and the cost of fuel is increasing.

Reekwind · 07-05-2011 11:10pm

bath handle wrote: »

Factories will only set up where basic services are available in the area

By private enterprise, yes. Which is where Ireland has erred for the past three decades - assuming that foreign companies will provide everything. In reality it takes state investment and planning to ensure that both the supporting infrastructure is provided and that the factories are located in accordance with this. As it is the IDA's approach has largely been to wave large tax breaks at US investors and hoping for the best

madison2011 · 07-05-2011 11:17pm

I do the 9 - 5 grind and all that crap. Today I went to 'rural ireland' in the rain and spent time with a goat, a pony, calves, chickens, horses and cows. Came home with a half dozen yummy eggs and two chicks on order.
Am so jealous of life in the hills. Have to make do with a poly tunnell

thebman · 07-05-2011 11:36pm

Semi-rural life is the best TBH. Living on the outskirts of a town. Easy access to facilities and the countryside on your doorstep.

City life is depressing TBH. I think towns with facilities in centre and housing on outskirts is the ideal scenario for most people with good public transport in the centre to get people to work. Best of both worlds.

Inverse to the power of one! · 08-05-2011 12:49am

From 2001-2006 when everybody could get a job places like south connemara had no real jobs.

Errr....wut? I know that remote areas of South Connemara can be bad, but in comparison to North Connemara, they've been running rings around us. From Galway city out as far as Carraroe you have IT service companies, RnaG and associated media companies, Rosaveel fishing harbour and tourist gateway to Aran. Not to mention that Enterprise receives a much needed support from the likes of Udras and there's probably more support for entrepreneurship there then most other places in the country on account of the Gaeltacht.

And in fact, I think this is as good an example as we will have for maintaining social and economic life in rural Ireland. I've seen with my own eye's professionals who move as far as NZ for lifestyle choices, and I know many in my own Industry who would move back to rural Ireland in a heartbeat if they could work there.

I've also seen the decline of the rural area, and acknowledge that unless some of the issues previously mentioned in this thread are reversed it will continue. But I also believe that we live in an age where decentralization, information technology, and improved infrastructure can give us the means to address this.

Unfortunately I don't see this happening in Ireland any time too soon. Another thing I feel that is strangling rural Ireland are the cynical practices of established families in small towns, I've seen this with my own eyes and it disgusts me! Reason I suppose I don't live there anymore along with many others.

bauderline · 08-05-2011 9:37am

Infinitely more perplexing than the trend for one off housing is the aversion to it by a certain strand of Irish society.... really, you would think someone shot your grandmother....

Milk & Honey · 08-05-2011 10:20am

bauderline wrote: »

Infinitely more perplexing than the trend for one off housing is the aversion to it by a certain strand of Irish society.... really, you would think someone shot your grandmother....

One off housing has been an absolute curse. The only people who benefited from it are the site-farmers. People adopting the live in a car lifestyle are selfish morons. Overheads are being place on the state to supply them, the water and sewage services are not adequate and cannot be made adequate, fossil fuel is being burned at a rapid rate, scenery and consequently tourism is being destroyed.

Permabear · 08-05-2011 10:35am

This post has been deleted.

Milk & Honey · 08-05-2011 10:58am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The state that failed to stop it.
The pattern of development was facilitated by gombeen politicians. The state did not actively encourage it but did little or nothing to stop it. My grandmother may not have been shot but my grandchildren will be paying for this. When travelling around rural France I notice that there are no houses between towns. Villages destroyed in the First World war are marked with a sign post but were not rebuilt. Instead of three postmen having to spend a full day each delivering a handful of mail to 500 people on a peninsula, one postman can do it in two hours. The list of efficiencies goes on and on.

Ste.phen · 08-05-2011 10:59am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yes, absolutely. But that doesn't mean it should be encouraged in future.

Amhran Nua · 08-05-2011 11:26am

Anyone considered the possibilities offered by telecommuting? Most office jobs don't require you to actually be in the office any more, and the number that do are decreasing daily. You could be living halfway up a hill in Connemara and doing your accounting or secretary work perfectly. It's an inescapable and welcome trend. This is why the single most important infrastructure to build up is the information infrastructure.

Clareboy · 08-05-2011 11:29am

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The state that failed to stop it.
The pattern of development was facilitated by gombeen politicians. The state did not actively encourage it but did little or nothing to stop it. My grandmother may not have been shot but my grandchildren will be paying for this. When travelling around rural France I notice that there are no houses between towns. Villages destroyed in the First World war are marked with a sign post but were not rebuilt. Instead of three postmen having to spend a full day each delivering a handful of mail to 500 people on a peninsula, one postman can do it in two hours. The list of efficiencies goes on and on.

Yes indeed, the combined forces of gombeenism, greed and rabid individualism have done immense damage to our once beautiful country. In the UK and in other European countries, people can live in villages, often in houses that are hundreds of years old. But in this country, most people seem to want a bungalow or a mini mansion on a half acre.

My country has been destroyed both economically and physically and I curse those who are responsible. Our national obsession with building has landed us in some trouble! " Paddy the builder has dug the biggest black hole in ecomonic history". The economic damage will probably be sorted out sometime in the distant future, but the physical damage to our countryside is irreparable.

shoegirl · 08-05-2011 11:33am

bauderline wrote: »

Infinitely more perplexing than the trend for one off housing is the aversion to it by a certain strand of Irish society.... really, you would think someone shot your grandmother....

Exactly, one off housing never did half the harm that the practice of building urban style housing like large estates and apartment blocks in country villages or the middle of nowhere did. Look at places like Carraigaline or Watergrasshill in Cork - they are basically country villages with huge housing developments tacked on. No schools, no resources, don't know how the sewage system or ESB distribution cope.

Clareboy · 08-05-2011 11:35am

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Anyone considered the possibilities offered by telecommuting? Most office jobs don't require you to actually be in the office any more, and the number that do are decreasing daily. You could be living halfway up a hill in Connemara and doing your accounting or secretary work perfectly. It's an inescapable and welcome trend. This is why the single most important infrastructure to build up is the information infrastructure.

One could even be living in China or India!

Amhran Nua · 08-05-2011 11:47am

Clareboy wrote: »

One could even be living in China or India!

If one wanted to hand over all one's IP to the Chinese authorities or have to manage intercontinental personnel from a very different culture. Seriously, to not take advantage of efficiency gains for fear that someone with a cheaper wage advantage might steal your job is to avoid the fact that nine of the top ten exporters are fully developed countries. Even today, around a third of the Chinese trade advantage is down solely to currency manipulation, which India indulges in also.

Pete_Cavan · 08-05-2011 11:53am

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Anyone considered the possibilities offered by telecommuting? Most office jobs don't require you to actually be in the office any more, and the number that do are decreasing daily. You could be living halfway up a hill in Connemara and doing your accounting or secretary work perfectly. It's an inescapable and welcome trend. This is why the single most important infrastructure to build up is the information infrastructure.

The problem is one-off housing has made it impossible for us to provide decent infrastructure in this country. What you are talking about would require FTTH (Fibre To The Home) broadband for each house in the country. To install fibre to every home in the country would cost hundreds of millions of euro because of the dispersed nature of the houses. The MANs is a good way of providing telecoms services but, by its nature, only happens in urban areas. The guy living halfway up a hill in Connemara should either have to pay to have fibre extended to his house or make do with a crappy mobile internet dongle (meaning he can compete with the guy in town on the MAN).

This also highlights why we have crap infrastructure in this country, our resources are too thinly spread. We spend a fortune providing broadband, water, sewerage, electricity, etc. to every house in the country with the result being everyone gets a crap service and those in urban areas subsidies those in rural areas.

Our roads are crap because all our original N roads are lined with one-off houses making online upgrades impossible. Instead we had to buy up new land and build the new road from scratch. We still incur the cost of maintaining the old road except now we have to maintain twice as much road going forward.

Most of our public transport is crap because, in order to reach a critical mass to provide sufficient passenger numbers to make a service feasible, a train has to stop at every one horse town enroute. This makes the service extremely slow and can not compete with private transport. As a result we have a car dependant society who are being hammered by the rising cost of petrol.

Never mind very rural Ireland, Ireland itself is heading for huge problems unless we change our planning policy to increase densities in urban areas. IMO we should adopt a planning policy similar to in Britain where only those we live off the land can build one-off houses in the middle of nowhere.

Clareboy · 08-05-2011 11:54am

shoegirl wrote: »

Exactly, one off housing never did half the harm that the practice of building urban style housing like large estates and apartment blocks in country villages or the middle of nowhere did. Look at places like Carraigaline or Watergrasshill in Cork - they are basically country villages with huge housing developments tacked on. No schools, no resources, don't know how the sewage system or ESB distribution cope.

Yes, the fabric of many our traditional villages have been destroyed by developer led construction projects. Infill development and the restoration of existing houses would have been preferable.

Amhran Nua · 08-05-2011 12:04pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What you are talking about would require FTTH (Fibre To The Home) broadband for each house in the country.

No it wouldn't, at leasy not initially. You can get great speeds out of wireless connections these days.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This also highlights why we have crap infrastructure in this country, our resources are two thinly spread. We spend a fortune providing broadband, water, sewerage, electricity, etc. to every house in the country with the result being everyone gets a crap service and those in urban areas subsidies those in rural areas.

Electricity is its own can of worms, with significant government failures on that front. Likewise water is the victim of inattention which results in half the water leaking from the pipes before it ever reaches your tap, nothing to do with urban versus rural. Most rural people pay their own water rates anyway.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

As a result we have a car dependant society who are being hammered by the rising cost of petrol.

There are already plans on the table to move to a higher proportion of electric vehicles by 2020. The price of petrol is going to become less and less a factor as we move along.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Never mind very rural Ireland, Ireland itself is heading for huge problems unless we change our planning policy to increase densities in urban areas. IMO we should adopt a planning policy similar to in Britain where only those we live off the land can build one-off houses in the middle of nowhere.

Maybe, it's not a simple picture no matter how you paint it.

ArtSmart · 08-05-2011 12:09pm

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Errr....wut? I know that remote areas of South Connemara can be bad, but in comparison to North Connemara, they've been running rings around us. From Galway city out as far as Carraroe you have IT service companies, RnaG and associated media companies, Rosaveel fishing harbour and tourist gateway to Aran. Not to mention that Enterprise receives a much needed support from the likes of Udras and there's probably more support for entrepreneurship there then most other places in the country on account of the Gaeltacht.

And in fact, I think this is as good an example as we will have for maintaining social and economic life in rural Ireland. I've seen with my own eye's professionals who move as far as NZ for lifestyle choices, and I know many in my own Industry who would move back to rural Ireland in a heartbeat if they could work there.

I've also seen the decline of the rural area, and acknowledge that unless some of the issues previously mentioned in this thread are reversed it will continue. But I also believe that we live in an age where decentralization, information technology, and improved infrastructure can give us the means to address this.

Unfortunately I don't see this happening in Ireland any time too soon. Another thing I feel that is strangling rural Ireland are the cynical practices of established families in small towns, I've seen this with my own eyes and it disgusts me! Reason I suppose I don't live there anymore along with many others.

spot on.
I think there will be an increase in community/ rural development thanks in no small part to our third level institutions emphasis on same (encouraged by the EU's Leader and other progs)

as for the actions of the rural mafia - also evident in the business 'community' of larger towns, that'll take time.

Pete_Cavan · 08-05-2011 12:37pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There are already plans on the table to move to a higher proportion of electric vehicles by 2020. The price of petrol is going to become less and less a factor as we move along.

As you pointed out, electricity is its own can of worms. I dont think electric vehicles will be the solution in this country where our energy policy involves subsidising inefficient producers (windfarms) and I would not be surprised to the cost of powering an electric vehicle reaching a similar cost per kilometer as we now see with petrol in the not too distant future. The price of petrol is going to become less and less a factor but the price of electricity will be more and more of a factor, and this effects every home and business in the country. I would not be surprised if we are phasing out EVs soon enough.

murphaph · 08-05-2011 1:14pm

Reekwind wrote: »

Historically factories do not go to people; people go to factories.

This was the case at the very beginnings of the industrial revolution...raw materials exist in location so factory built and people move from rural life to factory to work in't mill or whatever.

We have however moved well beyond industry "building" cities (at least in Western Europe) in this way. Cities now exist in their own right and industry does indeed nowadays find its way to the people in these existing cities. Industry wants to have as large a pool of available labour as possible. Industry usually has to be coerced into locating in an otherwise non-sensical location (often with overly generous tax breaks etc.).

Let's face it...rural Ireland is and should be no different to rural Germany or rural France or Spain etc. Do people think rural locations in these countries are teaming with jobs and industry? Think again...Germans from Brandenburg up sticks when they're 18 and go to study and find work in Berlin. Bavarians go to Munich etc. (there is obviously wider spread but these are typical). Bavaria is a wealthy state but rural Bavaria is still not a place you will find work. They have large farms and strong provincial towns. One off housing is rare-people live in settlements.

If people chosse to stay in a rural location in Germany they would not expect jobs to be brought to them. The Irish didn't either until recently and I don't really know where that came from tbh. We should focus our energy of building up our cities to be decent places to live and protect the countryside from further destruction. There are enough one off house built at this stage.

murphaph · 08-05-2011 1:34pm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Anyone considered the possibilities offered by telecommuting? Most office jobs don't require you to actually be in the office any more, and the number that do are decreasing daily. You could be living halfway up a hill in Connemara and doing your accounting or secretary work perfectly. It's an inescapable and welcome trend. This is why the single most important infrastructure to build up is the information infrastructure.

There's only so far this can go. I work as a web developer and it is just easier to work in an office where you can ask the guy face to face what bit of his code does x, y or z. He can come over to your desk and point at things. I work on a project at the minute that will be deployed in Brazil. The Brazilian team are hard to communicate with over skype no matter what people say. It is less efficient than everyone working in the same office. We had the Brazilians over for a month to see the new setup that will replace their existing one and we got loads done. As soon as they went back it was like the brakes being put on. Telecommutiung has a place but most people who do it generally manage only a few days a week as meetings etc. still go better when they are face to face.

Lots of industries of course preclude telecommuting by their very nature.

bath handle · 08-05-2011 2:43pm

Children can't telecommute to school or to play with friends or play sports. Shops have to be physically visited as do doctors and hospitals. Telecommute does not overcome the problems caused by dispersed settlement. It might reduce the travelling done by one member of a household. All the other downsides to scattered settlement remain.

gigino · 08-05-2011 3:14pm

8 or so main centres around the country would be best. Critical mass etc.

Those small town / villages with ghost estates should never have been built.

Brussels Sprout · 08-05-2011 5:08pm

gigino wrote: »

8 or so main centres around the country would be best. Critical mass etc.

Those small town / villages with ghost estates should never have been built.

The national spatial strategy was a joke. They basically went and made every big town and city in the country seem important. A sure way to keep all of the TDs happy so that they could go back to their constituents. TWENTY TWO gateways and hubs!

Harps · 08-05-2011 8:14pm

Every town in the west with more than a few thousand people is on that list, as you say its just down to local politics and keeping everyone happy. The likes of Ballina, Monaghan and Tuam as nationwide hubs!

Not that that plan actually meant anything anyway, I cant say I've ever noticed anything attributed to being a gateway town around here

bath handle · 08-05-2011 8:40pm

They are reasonable towns in my view. There should be severe restrictions on building one off housing in their hinterlands. There will be no GPs in rural areas soon and priests are also becoming scarce. Larger farms and smaller farm families will make the remaining businesses in rural areas less viable.

gigino · 08-05-2011 8:55pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

The national spatial strategy was a joke. They basically went and made every big town and city in the country seem important. A sure way to keep all of the TDs happy so that they could go back to their constituents. TWENTY TWO gateways and hubs!

not only that but they made the mistake of developing smaller, previously picturesque villages too.

many have ghost estates now

bulldoze em

srsly78 · 08-05-2011 11:44pm

My registered office is in rural Ireland, but the internet is too **** to work from there

0.2Mb dsl... GJ Eircom. People 200m away have 12Mb :rolleyes: So anyway I work from Dublin instead. Have been trying to get it sorted for years.

Batsy · 09-05-2011 12:45pm

Kevin joyce wrote: »

Do very rural parts of ireland have a future? From 2001-2006 when everybody could get a job places like south connemara had no real jobs.

Apart from Dublin, the whole of the Republic of Ireland is comparatively rural.

What amazes me is that the Republic's second largest "city", Cork, is slightly smaller than Bolton (where I live), near Manchester, which is only the 32nd largest place in the UK, behind the likes of Wirral, Wakefield, Coventry, Sunderland, Doncaster, Wigan, Sefton, Stockport, Leicester, Sunderland and even Sandwell.

Bolton!!

If you count the metroplitan areas of those places, Cork is only slightly larger than Bolton.

The town of Bolton has a population of 139,403, whilst the wider metropolitan borough has a population of 262,400. Cork has a population of 119,418. Metropolitan Cork has a population of approximately 274,000

All of those places, including my home town, are bigger than the Republic of Ireland's second largest city.

And then take a look at my county of Greater Manchester (which, for centuries, was part of Lancashire until, like Merseyside and parts of southern Cumbria, it "gained its independence" from Lancashire in 1974).

Greater Manchester, an urban, metropolitan county which comprises ten metropolitan boroughs - Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford and Wigan - measures just 493 sq mi (1,276 sq km in funny measures) in area. This makes Greater Manchester not much larger than County Carlow, which is the Republic of Ireland's second smallest county, with an area of 346 sq mi (896 sq km in funny measures).

But whereas County Carlow has a population of around 50,500, Greater Manchester has a population of 2.6 million. So, to get an idea of how crowded Greater Manchester is, imagine that 2.6 million of the Republic of Ireland's 4.5 million people were crowded together in County Carlow.

I don't think you realise sometimes just how small your nation is.

K-9 · 09-05-2011 1:43pm

Batsy wrote: »

Apart from Dublin, the whole of the Republic of Ireland is comparatively rural.

What amazes me is that the Republic's second largest "city", Cork, is slightly smaller than Bolton (where I live), near Manchester, which is only the 32nd largest place in the UK, behind the likes of Wirral, Wakefield, Coventry, Sunderland, Doncaster, Wigan, Sefton, Stockport, Leicester, Sunderland and even Sandwell.

[img][/img]http://www.my-hospitality.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/bolton-town-hall.jpg
Bolton!!

If you count the metroplitan areas of those places, Cork is only slightly larger than Bolton.

The town of Bolton has a population of 139,403, whilst the wider metropolitan borough has a population of 262,400. Cork has a population of 119,418. Metropolitan Cork has a population of approximately 274,000

All of those places, including my home town, are bigger than the Republic of Ireland's second largest city.

I don't think you realise sometimes just how small your nation is.

The difference there is Cork is the second city here and naturally is more important and well known than what is a relatively small city in NW England, nearly a suburb of Manchester. Cork is recognised as the centre of our pharmaceutical industry which is the main reason for strong export performance.

Batsy · 09-05-2011 1:58pm

K-9 wrote: »

The difference there is Cork is the second city here and naturally is more important and well known than what is a relatively small city in NW England, nearly a suburb of Manchester. Cork is recognised as the centre of our pharmaceutical industry which is the main reason for strong export performance.

I'm not trying to deny that. I'm just giving a comparison of how small towns and cities are in the Republic compared to the UK, in that Cork would only be around the 31st or 32nd largest place if it was in the UK rather than the Republic.

Compared to the UK, the Republic is a much more rural place.

Cú Giobach · 09-05-2011 2:09pm

Batsy wrote: »

Apart from Dublin, the whole of the Republic of Ireland is comparatively rural.

What amazes me is that the Republic's second largest "city", Cork, is slightly smaller than Bolton (where I live), near Manchester, which is only the 32nd largest place in the UK, behind the likes of Wirral, Wakefield, Coventry, Sunderland, Doncaster, Wigan, Sefton, Stockport, Leicester, Sunderland and even Sandwell.

Bolton!!

If you count the metroplitan areas of those places, Cork is only slightly larger than Bolton.

The town of Bolton has a population of 139,403, whilst the wider metropolitan borough has a population of 262,400. Cork has a population of 119,418. Metropolitan Cork has a population of approximately 274,000

All of those places, including my home town, are bigger than the Republic of Ireland's second largest city.

And then take a look at my county of Greater Manchester (which, for centuries, was part of Lancashire until, like Merseyside and parts of southern Cumbria, it "gained its independence" from Lancashire in 1974).

Greater Manchester, an urban, metropolitan county which comprises ten metropolitan boroughs - Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford and Wigan - measures just 493 sq mi (1,276 sq km in funny measures) in area. This makes Greater Manchester not much larger than County Carlow, which is the Republic of Ireland's second smallest county, with an area of 346 sq mi (896 sq km in funny measures).

But whereas County Carlow has a population of around 50,500, Greater Manchester has a population of 2.6 million. So, to get an idea of how crowded Greater Manchester is, imagine that 2.6 million of the Republic of Ireland's 4.5 million people were crowded together in County Carlow.

I don't think you realise sometimes just how small your nation is.

I think you will find we are quite aware (and thankful) of the size of our country, and don't need to have it pointed out to us like naive little children.

Bulldoze all the holiday homes and ghost estates and leave those of us who actually live in the countryside and would go mad living in a city, town or village alone.

Brussels Sprout · 09-05-2011 2:13pm

Batsy wrote: »

I'm not trying to deny that. I'm just giving a comparison of how small towns and cities are in the Republic compared to the UK, in that Cork would only be around the 31st or 32nd largest place if it was in the UK rather than the Republic.

Compared to the UK, the Republic is a much more rural place.

If you travel by rail from Cork to Dublin all you see is fields for the most part whereas If you travel by rail from London to Birmingham or Newcastle it just seems to be town after town after town.

I agree that before we try and develop everywhere all at once we should start by trying to develop our other cities outside of Dublin.

Cú Giobach · 09-05-2011 2:18pm

Batsy wrote: »

What amazes me is that the Republic's second largest "city", Cork, is slightly smaller than Bolton (where I live),.

Just out of curiosity, why does the fact that another country is different to yours "amaze you"?

CerebralCortex · 09-05-2011 2:59pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, why does the fact that another country is different to yours "amaze you"?

It makes it clear how small our population actually is.

Brussels Sprout · 09-05-2011 3:03pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, why does the fact that another country is different to yours "amaze you"?

Well I'm from Cork and I think it's amazing that it's the 2nd biggest city in a country. I also think that the fact that the Elysian is the tallest building (17 floors) in the country is amazing as well.

I spent a lot of time living in New Zealand which has a lot of parallels with here. Same size populations, both in the OECD, both with strong agricultural histories and both dominated by one city.

However as can be seen in the tables below there is a massive difference in the drop off after the first city. The top 4 cities in NZ are bigger than Ireland's second city and the top 7 cities in NZ are bigger than Ireland's third city Limerick.

1 Dublin[a] & Suburbs 1,045,769
2 Cork[a] & Suburbs 190,384
3 Limerick[a] & Suburbs 90,757
4 Galway[a] & Suburbs 72,729
5 Waterford & Suburbs 49,213
6 Drogheda & Environs 35,090
7 Dundalk[a] & Suburbs 35,085
8 Swords[a] 33,998
9 Bray & Environs 31,901
10 Navan[a] & Environs 24,851

1 Auckland 1,354,900
2 Christchurch 390,300
3 Wellington 389,700
4 Hamilton Urban Area 203,400
5 Napier-Hastings Urban Area 124,400
6 Tauranga 120,000
7 Dunedin 116,600
8 Palmerston North 81,600
9 Nelson 59,800
10 Rotorua 55,900

So if the populations are the same but the urban population profiles are so markedly different then this points to a massive amount of people in Ireland living in either very small communities or one off houses in the middle of rural areas.

CerebralCortex · 09-05-2011 3:34pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Well I'm from Cork and I think it's amazing that it's the 2nd biggest city in a country. I also think that the fact that the Elysian is the tallest building (17 floors) in the country is amazing as well.

I spent a lot of time living in New Zealand which has a lot of parallels with here. Same size populations, both in the OECD, both with strong agricultural histories and both dominated by one city.

However as can be seen in the tables below there is a massive difference in the drop off after the first city. The top 4 cities in NZ are bigger than Ireland's second city and the top 7 cities in NZ are bigger than Ireland's third city Limerick.

So if the populations are the same but the urban population profiles are so markedly different then this points to a massive amount of people in Ireland living in either very small communities or one off houses in the middle of rural areas.

What's remarkable about NZ to due to this fact is swathes of unspoilt landscape. I am aware however that it's land mass is 3.5 times that of Ireland.

Very rural Ireland

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