Emigration to Europe

syklops · 04-05-2011 02:02PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Spain is not exactly plush with jobs though.

Neither is Scotland or Wales. An obscure comment IMO.

prinz · 04-05-2011 02:02PM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

That didn't really answer my question.

I'd say most people know a good deal. Usually more than they think they do. Then again it's not really taught in primary or secondary levels which is sad.

pickarooney · 04-05-2011 02:07PM

syklops wrote: »

Neither is Scotland or Wales. An obscure comment IMO.

Those are largely English-speaking areas and irrelevant to the thread.

prinz wrote: »

I'd say most people know a good deal. Usually more than they think they do. Then again it's not really taught in primary or secondary levels which is sad.

IME a person who speaks several languages is much more likely to be aware of etymology than someone who speaks one.

prinz · 04-05-2011 02:10PM

pickarooney wrote: »

IME a person who speaks several languages is much more likely to be aware of etymology than someone who speaks one.

Eh true.

michelledoh · 04-05-2011 02:12PM

A lot of my friends are looking at teaching jobs in both Spain and London. Apparently there is a real need for teachers in those areas! They even send scouts over to Ireland. The schools in Spain are mainly international schools aswell so i think you could easily cope with a lot of spanish!

kraggy · 04-05-2011 02:17PM

Jenna Thundering Thermometer wrote: »

I am thinking about looking for work in another country but I'm not that interested in going to America or Australia. I am wondering say if I were to emigrate to somewhere like the Netherlands, France or Sweden or somewhere would it be possible to learn the languages quickly? Have any of you done it? How long does it take to become proficient and be able to read local news papers etc. I don't want to be an alien and feel stupid. Obviously for a while I'd only be able to speak English but I think I could learn.

Going to Europe just seems like a much better option in terms of visas etc. Don't need to worry about that. And they are not far away? Just wondering has anyone ****ed off to france and learned the langauge from scratch within a reasonable timeframe. There are tonnes of jobs in my field in all of these places. In Germany for example there doesn't even seem to be a recession!

Emigrants I want your experinece learning languages and working in Europe.

I'd say move to Russia.

With a name like Whodyanickthebollockov you'll do fine x

RachaelVO · 04-05-2011 02:47PM

malkmoose wrote: »

Moved to Helsinki recently, starting to learn Finnish but very hard especially because everyone is so good at English and are eager to practice their English with a native speaker. I am at an instant disadvantage when it comes to looking for work as most employers ask for native Finnish as part of their requirements, luckily I came over to work for a company that uses English as their business language. My advise would be to apply for work in the country you are interested in before you go and move over to a job.

Have that exact same thing in the nethlerlands, although I can speak dutch anyway, as soon as they hear my heavily accented dutch they switch to English all the time! I'm married to a dutch fella and out kids switch from one language to the other very quickly (they're 2 and 4).

ejmaztec · 04-05-2011 02:51PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Those are largely English-speaking areas and irrelevant to the thread.

One has to be fluent in dumb insolence in those places, or have a native bearer to act as interpreter.

RachaelVO · 04-05-2011 02:51PM

inforfun wrote: »

I think there is a big difference being able to speak a language when socialising and having to speak that same language in a business environment.
I am Dutch and have no issues speaking English but I would feel a whole lot less comfortable having to do my job speaking English.

Op,
If you move to Holland dont bother about learning Dutch. Most Dutch people speak English and there are already in between 1 and 2 million imports who didnt bother to learn Dutch despite the fact they live there 20+ years.

YEP! Even if you address people in Dutch they will answer in English, sometimes to improve their English, sometimes just to show off in front of their colleagues or family (rarely in front of friends).

Captain Havoc · 04-05-2011 03:45PM

I'm not going to read through this thread but I've experience in this area. When I was in college I was sent to do a years work experience in Switzerland. I failed leaving cert French and was terrible at it in college, getting under 10% in tests etc..... I kinda felt uncomfortable being a worker in another country and not being able to speak the language so I spoke as much as I could, I found some drinking buddies, was playing soccer and stuff and started to get my head around it, after a year I went back to college and went from being the worst of the worst into the top class of French. After college I went and worked for a year in Paris, the French there was a lot quicker than what I was used to in Switzerland and I found myself learning again. Later I moved to the UK and was working for a French hotel group, the same I was working for in Paris, so I was still speaking French and I was working with French people quite a bit. Five years after I first moved to Switzerland I moved back there, only this time to the German speaking region. I spoke mostly English and French with people as I was still working for the same French hotel group and as the headquarters for Switzerland were in the French region a lot of our reports were in French or English. It was a bit confusing there also as they speak two forms of German, Swiss-German and normal German, so I never really knew which I was using but people understood me so meh. After a year in Zurich I had passable German and I was able to use it over here. Since then, I've changed careers and have no real use for the languages. Best of luck.

Solair · 04-05-2011 04:13PM

RachaelVO wrote: »

YEP! Even if you address people in Dutch they will answer in English, sometimes to improve their English, sometimes just to show off in front of their colleagues or family (rarely in front of friends).

You can completely freak them out by pretending that you have severe difficulty understanding them and speaking back in REALLY SLOW CLEAR ENGLISH and then switching back to Dutch

(Read in received pronunciation) - I am terribly sorry, but I haven't got the foggiest idea what you are talking about old boy! Have you been learning English for long?

pickarooney · 04-05-2011 04:34PM

I used to do the opposite and speak really fast in a variety of regional accents and smile innocently while they reluctantly admitted they might not have caught absolutely everything I said.

mawk · 04-05-2011 04:37PM

landsleaving wrote: »

I went to Denmark and tried to learn a bit of Danish. It was f'n impossible.

flemish probably would have been easier. Being an actual language and all

Luxie · 04-05-2011 04:45PM

Many many moons ago I took myself off to Paris with school French (plus one year of business French in college). It's fair to say in France at least you'll be proficient if not fluent within a year. Assuming you make the effort, which in France you would have to do.

Moved onto Brussels where people were more eager to practise their English (English mother tongue people were always in demand there on account of all the international organisations there). However I shared an office with a lady who had little or no English which meant my 'business' French improved drastically.

However these days English and French are the working languages where I work but in reality English is by far the dominant language.

RachaelVO · 04-05-2011 05:33PM

Solair wrote: »

You can completely freak them out by pretending that you have severe difficulty understanding them and speaking back in REALLY SLOW CLEAR ENGLISH and then switching back to Dutch

(Read in received pronunciation) - I am terribly sorry, but I haven't got the foggiest idea what you are talking about old boy! Have you been learning English for long?

Ha ha ha, I must try that one!

pickarooney · 04-05-2011 05:39PM

mawk wrote: »

flemish probably would have been easier. Being an actual language and all

Maybe a little easier, but not the most useful language to know in Denmark I would have thought.

Seloth · 04-05-2011 06:20PM

I can grasp how you can learn a new language by moving there.

In conversation do the native speakers tell you new words or what hah?

My mother can speak 4 languages,with German and Russia she picked up from living there for a few months in each. :eek:

04-05-2011 08:18PM

Apanachi wrote: »

I would define "fluent" as being able to speak the language effortlessly (which I did after less than 6 months - I did have basic school German first though, so that would have been a great help)

Speaking a language fluently doesn't necessarily mean speaking it flawlessly

I think people could argue all year about what 'fluent' means. It's a matter of opinion. I would also define it as being able to speak without thinking about it, but only if you're able to talk about a wide variety of topics. Perhaps not everything, but if you can only have shallow conversations about yourself and very general topics (like Benny the Irish Polyglot), I wouldn't call that fluent. I also think that accuracy is a big factor. Nobody speaks any language perfectly, but if you're making a lot of non-native mistakes, then you're not really fluent, IMO.

prinz wrote: »

If that's the criterion then there are middle aged men running our country who aren't fluent in English . So you are saying in less than six months you had the ability to discuss any topic in depth, an understanding of idioms/adages, wordplays, were able to recognise references to the classics of German literature, the etymology of German words and grammar for example? My respects. Nozzferrahhtoo said it best above, about tying the language into the history and culture of a people.

Depends again on what you consider fluent I suppose. Knowing enough of a language to 'get by' is not what I'd consider fluent, until you can express yourself as well as someone born, and raised in a certain language then IMO you are not fluent.

I definitely don't think 'fluency' = speaking as well as a native. I don't think you can ever express yourself as well as someone born and brought up in the country. I know people with Irish parents who were brought up abroad and they make the odd grammar mistake and don't have a good understanding of the culture (humour, idioms, wordplays) but they're definitely fluent in English.

tolosenc · 04-05-2011 10:02PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Kids learn languages much faster than any adult. Past a certain age it becomes increasingly hard.

Not true. The Critical Period Hypothesis has been largely discredited.

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

Well yeah, but very young children soak up languages so it's not exactly the same.

Absolutely no reason why an adult learner can't perform as well as a child.

ejmaztec wrote: »

I suppose it's possible if you've got a brain the size of a pumpkin, and can store in three months what one of the natives has spent 20 odd years learning.

Fluency, not native like command. If you apply yourself, fluency is possible in a matter of months.

prinz wrote: »

Benny is talking through his backside. You may become conversant enough to survive a holiday, basic meetings etc. but there's not a hope you are going to become 'fluent'. Fluent is one of the most misused words in the English language.

And you're misusing it. Fluency is not synonymous with being a native speaker.

prinz wrote: »

If that's the criterion then there are middle aged men running our country who aren't fluent in English . So you are saying in less than six months you had the ability to discuss any topic in depth, an understanding of idioms/adages, wordplays, were able to recognise references to the classics of German literature, the etymology of German words and grammar for example? My respects. Nozzferrahhtoo said it best above, about tying the language into the history and culture of a people.

Depends again on what you consider fluent I suppose. Knowing enough of a language to 'get by' is not what I'd consider fluent, until you can express yourself as well as someone born, and raised in a certain language then IMO you are not fluent.

You seem to be completely missing the middle ground between phrasebook standard, and university-educated local.

And really, if you immerse yourself in the language, and accept that you have to learn it (basically, don't be a "Brit Abroad" type) there's no reason why you couldn't be very fluent in 6 months.

RachaelVO · 04-05-2011 10:53PM

tolosenc wrote: »

Not true. The Critical Period Hypothesis has been largely discredited.

I don't know if that's true, but having bilingual children, I think it does have some credibility. I'm no expert on it now, by my experience gives it some substance. I speak, read and write Dutch, and I learnt it LONG before I had children and I can safely say their Dutch is by far and away better than mine and their English better than their fathers (bearing in mind his English is better than my Dutch, but that's normal for The Netherlands)!

tolosenc wrote: »

Absolutely no reason why an adult learner can't perform as well as a child.

I think you're right there. I think the main difference is that as an adult you have lots of other preoccupations, which kids don't necessarily have, so that could be what makes it easier for children.

Aidric · 05-05-2011 07:11PM

syklops wrote: »

I moved to the Czech Republic two years ago and really recommend it...It is a very difficult language as words change depending on the situation and gender.

Je pravda syklops! I too moved to the Czech Republic 9 months ago, Prague to be exact. It is possible to get by in Prague with English only, not very comfortably however. I also work for an American multinational where the business language is English but most of my colleagues are Czech.

I made a conscious decision to immerse myself fully in the language once I got here as it shows a healthy respect for the locals and also makes life a hell of a lot easier. Czech is widely considered one of the most difficult languages in the world so it will take some time to be reach full proficiency. I enrolled in language school about a month after getting here and have tuition twice a week for a total of 3 hours. Further I practice as much as possible amongst my friends and in day to day life. I am lucky in that my girlfriend of 4 years is Czech and so I can practice at home as well. She is as hard as any teacher!!

I can converse to an acceptable level and am learning all the time. I know it isn't nice when some of the locals laugh at your efforts sometimes but I find it focuses the mind quite quickly and so the same mistake won't be made twice. Conversely the locals really appreciate the efforts in learning the language and that is a nice payoff.

My advice to you OP is to go for it and immerse yourself fully in to the new surroundings. I have made a load of new friends from all over the world whilst living in one of the most beautiful cities in the world. If I need to get home I'm only a few hours flight away. The weather will almost certainly be better than back home also which is a nice bonus.

liah · 05-05-2011 07:23PM

Apanachi wrote: »

I moved to Germany a long time ago and became fluent very fast. When it comes to learning a new language, you have to make sure to use whatever little you know, incorporating any new words you learn into your speech and be adamant that the natives speak to you in their language, most people abroad are only to happy to practise their english on you, defeating the purpose of learning a new language.

When I first moved here I lived directly on the Danish border, that language is so hard to speak, they have the weirdest accents - it's like talking with a hot potato in your mouth, on the other hand, the language itself is easy enough to learn, just the pronunciation of the words is hard. I watched a lot of Danish TV when I first moved to Germany as most TV series/films are in English with Danish subtitles and it's amazing how much Danish I actually learned (to read, not speak)

Directly on the Danish border, huh? Anywhere near Flensburg? Never thought I'd see the day :eek:

Anyway, German grammar is very, very different to English and I'm still struggling with it a year later. French and Spanish are incredibly easy to learn, Swedish is meant to be pretty easy too. But I wouldn't exactly call German one of the easier ones.

05-05-2011 10:22PM

liah wrote: »

Directly on the Danish border, huh? Anywhere near Flensburg? Never thought I'd see the day :eek:

Anyway, German grammar is very, very different to English and I'm still struggling with it a year later. French and Spanish are incredibly easy to learn, Swedish is meant to be pretty easy too. But I wouldn't exactly call German one of the easier ones.

I don't think French and Spanish are easier than German. I think they're easy/difficult in their own ways.

population · 05-05-2011 10:57PM

I arrived in Italy with no Italian apart from a few pleasantries, ciao grazie prego etc, but I was good at German and Irish in school so I thought I could probably learn Italian if I got stuck in. I must admit that Italian is a tough language and it has taken me a little bit by surprise as to quite how awkward the grammar can be but at about the 1 year mark things started to make a bit of sense. At 2 years I can understand about 75% of what is being said and have a fairly decent chat myself. But my biggest barriers to learning have been my job of teaching English, my homelife as I obviously chat with my English speaking wife in English, and the fact that Neopolitans rarely speak amongst themselves in Italian, opting instead for dialect which is completely different to Italian, therefore learning by ozmosis is out. So OP it is possible but it takes time and effort. However the reward of the sensation of bantering in another language is just fantastic:)

liah · 05-05-2011 10:58PM

Lilly Cold Gorilla wrote: »

I don't think French and Spanish are easier than German. I think they're easy/difficult in their own ways.

Meh. I found them both a hell of a lot easier than German, but that could also be because I've had absolutely no formal education in German (and don't get much of a chance to use it since my friends prefer English), and was in French Immersion for a couple years and took a semester in Spanish.

Still, Spanish (outside of pronunciation) is known for being one of the easier languages to learn.

I could adapt very easily to the grammar of both, but the grammar in German is just bizarre. And I have trouble with the 'ch' sound and dropping my r's, but no one really cares about that. Even my German friends say German grammar is weird.

Eve_Dublin · 05-05-2011 11:05PM

population wrote: »

I arrived in Italy with no Italian apart from a few pleasantries, ciao grazie prego etc, but I was good at German and Irish in school so I thought I could probably learn Italian if I got stuck in. I must admit that Italian is a tough language and it has taken me a little bit by surprise as to quite how awkward the grammar can be but at about the 1 year mark things started to make a bit of sense. At 2 years I can understand about 75% of what is being said and have a fairly decent chat myself. But my biggest barriers to learning have been my job of teaching English, my homelife as I obviously chat with my English speaking wife in English, and the fact that Neopolitans rarely speak amongst themselves in Italian, opting instead for dialect which is completely different to Italian, therefore learning by ozmosis is out. So OP it is possible but it takes time and effort. However the reward of the sensation of bantering in another language is just fantastic:)

I'm jealous of your determination. Living in Madrid, teaching English (worst job to have if you want to learn a second language...I study English grammar in my spare time and put classes together in English) and living with a Canadian and most of my friends are fellow English teachers or Spanish who want to practise their English. I'm getting there but I thought afer 1 year and 9 months, I thought I'd be better. I suppose it'll keep getting better but I thought I'd get there quicker to be honest.

population · 05-05-2011 11:10PM

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I'm jealous of your determination. Living in Madrid, teaching English (worst job to have if you want to learn a second language...I study English grammar in my spare time and put classes together in English) and living with a Canadian and most of my friends are fellow English teachers or Spanish who want to practise their English. I'm getting there but I thought afer 1 year and 9 months, I thought I'd be better. I suppose it'll keep getting better but I thought I'd get there quicker to be honest.

Well I am sure you are not giving yourself enough credit and you have possibly had a bad day trying to speak Spanish today. I find I wake up some days and I cannot speak Italian for the life of me. Tongue is tied, confidence low etc, but then I get days where I say things effortlessly and feel really good about it. It really is one step forward and two steps back but you have done the hardest part already:)

dj jarvis · 05-05-2011 11:19PM

landsleaving wrote: »

I went to Denmark and tried to learn a bit of Danish. It was f'n impossible.

I know someone over there and he's been learning, still a long, long way from fluency.

I'd say German might be easiest to learn, since it's closest to English (as far as I know, linguists, prepare to attack with your semantics!)

im the same - trying to learn Finnish and my god what a fecking language :eek:

on germany i lived and worked in Germany for 3 years and picked up enough to get by - but if your considering Germany remember they opened the flood gates from eastern europe 3 days ago so good luck getting a job

they will regret that move me thinks

but would recommend europe , dont let the lingo put you off , it will be hard going first off but worth the effort in the end
just give it time

05-05-2011 11:56PM

liah wrote: »

Meh. I found them both a hell of a lot easier than German, but that could also be because I've had absolutely no formal education in German (and don't get much of a chance to use it since my friends prefer English), and was in French Immersion for a couple years and took a semester in Spanish.

Still, Spanish (outside of pronunciation) is known for being one of the easier languages to learn.

I could adapt very easily to the grammar of both, but the grammar in German is just bizarre. And I have trouble with the 'ch' sound and dropping my r's, but no one really cares about that. Even my German friends say German grammar is weird.

Yeah, German grammar takes some getting used to, but I would say the pronunciation is fairly natural for an English speaker. The French accent is an absolute bitch to get right and it sounds awful if you don't get it right. I think Spanish is easy enough to pick up, but hard to speak well. Much like English. The concept of 'easy' or 'difficult' obviously varies from person to person, though as it largely depends on interest, motivation and the type of learner you are. It also depends what you're comparing it to. I found German grammar a bit tricky when I studied it at school, but having learned some Japanese and Korean, it seems fairly straightforward now. I think my brain is more open to accepting new languages than it used to be.

Apanachi · 06-05-2011 12:51PM

liah wrote: »

Directly on the Danish border, huh? Anywhere near Flensburg? Never thought I'd see the day :eek:

Not just near Flensburg, but actually Flensburg itself

Still miss that place, is Papa's Pita Imbiss still there? (near the Irish Pub on the fjord)

Emigration to Europe

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