Emigration to Europe

2ygb4cmqetsjhx

I am thinking about looking for work in another country but I'm not that interested in going to America or Australia. I am wondering say if I were to emigrate to somewhere like the Netherlands, France or Sweden or somewhere would it be possible to learn the languages quickly? Have any of you done it? How long does it take to become proficient and be able to read local news papers etc. I don't want to be an alien and feel stupid. Obviously for a while I'd only be able to speak English but I think I could learn.

Going to Europe just seems like a much better option in terms of visas etc. Don't need to worry about that. And they are not far away? Just wondering has anyone ****ed off to france and learned the langauge from scratch within a reasonable timeframe. There are tonnes of jobs in my field in all of these places. In Germany for example there doesn't even seem to be a recession!

Emigrants I want your experinece learning languages and working in Europe.

pragmatic1

I'd like to do the same but I'm shyte at languages.

landsleaving

I went to Denmark and tried to learn a bit of Danish. It was f'n impossible.

I know someone over there and he's been learning, still a long, long way from fluency.

I'd say German might be easiest to learn, since it's closest to English (as far as I know, linguists, prepare to attack with your semantics!)

Predalien

Not a personal experience but a friend of mine who had bad leaving cert french moved over there and was pretty much fluent within six months.

If you can afford to move over for a bit with enough saved to keep you going until you get a job I say go for it.

InTheTrees

Not much help from me, i went to an english speaking country...

But I hear german is fairly easy to learn, very like english.

i think I'd be more tempted by southern europe though, somehwre you could be dealing with tourists where your english would be an asset perhaps?

Sykk

Germany or one of the Baltic countries...

The Princess Bride

Have some friends who went to Netherlands ,with no dutch and learnt lingo relatively quickly-( some still live there decade later) most natives speak english anyway.
Also friends who went to France- and did likewise.
If babies can be multilingual,methinks adults could surely learn if they put their mind to it.
Bon chance!

2ygb4cmqetsjhx

landsleaving wrote: »

I went to Denmark and tried to learn a bit of Danish. It was f'n impossible.

I know someone over there and he's been learning, still a long, long way from fluency.

I'd say German might be easiest to learn, since it's closest to English (as far as I know, linguists, prepare to attack with your semantics!)

Still getting by though? How long has he been there?

The Princess Bride

pragmatic1 wrote: »

I'd like to do the same but I'm shyte at languages.

Really?:rolleyes:

orourkeda

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqTuN-35580

landsleaving

Jenna Thundering Thermometer wrote: »

Still getting by though? How long has he been there?

I think about 6 years now, everyone speaks fluent English there though, so that makes it a lot easier, probably makes actually learning Danish easy to avoid as well mind.

It's a great place to live by all accounts, I was talking to loads of people who emigrated there from here, the UK, America and China while I was there and they all love it, and mostly had little Danish, so you could get by without being fluent.

landsleaving

msthe80s wrote: »

Really?:rolleyes:

Swear filter, smart a**e.

malkmoose

Moved to Helsinki recently, starting to learn Finnish but very hard especially because everyone is so good at English and are eager to practice their English with a native speaker. I am at an instant disadvantage when it comes to looking for work as most employers ask for native Finnish as part of their requirements, luckily I came over to work for a company that uses English as their business language. My advise would be to apply for work in the country you are interested in before you go and move over to a job.

cosmicfart

I havent bothered looking at this thread, I just LOLLED at the OPs name LOL

pragmatic1

msthe80s wrote: »

Have some friends who went to Netherlands ,with no dutch and learnt lingo relatively quickly-( some still live there decade later) most natives speak english anyway.
Also friends who went to France- and did likewise.
If babies can be multilingual,methinks adults could surely learn if they put their mind to it.
Bon chance!

Kids learn languages much faster than any adult. Past a certain age it becomes increasingly hard.

JohnMearsheimer

I always loved the thought of moving to Italy or the south of France. Shame I'm crap at languages though.

TaraFoxglove

msthe80s wrote: »

If babies can be multilingual,methinks adults could surely learn if they put their mind to it.

Well yeah, but very young children soak up languages so it's not exactly the same.

Ouchette

Swedish is way easier than German and very closely related to English. Word order is mostly the same as English and the grammar kind of goes "I am, you am, he/she am, we am, they am". None of that complicated verb conjugation rubbish. You'd probably be reasonably proficient in a few months.

Finnish though.. different story. Got a mate who moved there and she's great at languages but Finnish is insane and not like English at all.

starbelgrade

Spanish is an easy enough language to learn. If you learn the basic rules of pronunciation of Spanish, you can read anything as all the words are pronounced phonetically.

Understanding what you are reading is a bit more difficult, but it's very doable.

The trick with learning any language is just to immerse yourself in it & try to avoid hanging around with English speaking people for the majority of the time, otherwise you'll learn nothing.

Coeurdepirate

Ouchette wrote: »

Swedish is way easier than German and very closely related to English. Word order is mostly the same as English and the grammar kind of goes "I am, you am, he/she am, we am, they am". None of that complicated verb conjugation rubbish. You'd probably be reasonably proficient in a few months.

Finnish though.. different story. Got a mate who moved there and she's great at languages but Finnish is insane and not like English at all.

+1

I have to say it's a relatively easy language for English speakers compared to others. WAY easier than Irish, considerably easier than French.

Apanachi

I moved to Germany a long time ago and became fluent very fast. When it comes to learning a new language, you have to make sure to use whatever little you know, incorporating any new words you learn into your speech and be adamant that the natives speak to you in their language, most people abroad are only to happy to practise their english on you, defeating the purpose of learning a new language.

When I first moved here I lived directly on the Danish border, that language is so hard to speak, they have the weirdest accents - it's like talking with a hot potato in your mouth, on the other hand, the language itself is easy enough to learn, just the pronunciation of the words is hard. I watched a lot of Danish TV when I first moved to Germany as most TV series/films are in English with Danish subtitles and it's amazing how much Danish I actually learned (to read, not speak)

Saila

mmmmmmm.. daniiiiish

I'm crap at languages... Which doens't bode well for me trying to learn Vietnamese. 6 fuking tones for each word. For European speakers, it's one of the most difficult in the world.. Even Mandarin only has 4 tones. Eg. Pronounce "pho" wrong and instead of noodle soup, you say prostitute.
I still can't pronounce one of the girl's names after a few weeks so I've resorted to calling her Sarah.

Azureus

Im in the process of getting together basic Spanish and I want to travel around/possibly live in South America one day-Id rather have the basics before getting there otherwise Id feel lost. Im gonna do a few little trips to Spain aswell just to get a bit of confidence with it. I hope...
My friend from Argentina is probably joining me on at least one of these to laugh at how shocking my attempts are.

I only have leaving cert French aswell though, and I find from using it ocassionally to native speakers in work the last few months its improved tenfold! Its all about the confidence

jester77

German is an easy language to learn, a hard one to master. How quick you become fluent will depend on how you approach it. My first job in Germany was working for an American multinational and all business was conducted through English. German was spoken in the office but everyone spoke English to me. I picked up the basics but not enough. I then worked for a German company. Initially people spoke to me in English but I insisted I could speak German and shortly afterwards everyone was speaking to me in only German. My German improved very quickly from there. Try and have a basic understanding of the native language before you go, otherwise people will speak only English with you and it will take much longer to grasp the language.

prinz

Jenna Thundering Thermometer wrote: »

Emigrants I want your experinece learning languages and working in Europe.

Pick your country and do some language courses before you go.

Cliona99

Don't lose hope, read these:

http://zenhabits.net/fluent/

http://www.fluentin3months.com/

Benny the Irish polyglot says you can become fluent in three months if you really put your mind to it

Good luck.

prinz

Cliona99 wrote: »

Benny the Irish polyglot says you can become fluent in three months if you really put your mind to it

Benny is talking through his backside. You may become conversant enough to survive a holiday, basic meetings etc. but there's not a hope you are going to become 'fluent'. Fluent is one of the most misused words in the English language.

ejmaztec

prinz wrote: »

Benny is talking through his backside. You may become conversant enough to survive a holiday, basic meetings etc. but there's not a hope you are going to become 'fluent'. Fluent is one of the most misused words in the English language.

I suppose it's possible if you've got a brain the size of a pumpkin, and can store in three months what one of the natives has spent 20 odd years learning.

Solair

I've lived on the continent an to be quite honest, the cultural differences are usually vastly overstated and, in reality, you'll find most of Europe pretty similar to home, once you crack the language barrier.

The main thing you need to be sure of is that you are prepared to and have an ability to pick up a language. This can be quite a bit of work and you will need to actually open the books, preferably and crack the grammar when you are there. It's not all that difficult when you are actually totally immersed in a language to do that as the grammar and vocabulary suddenly makes sense as you're hearing it and using it every day.

Simply picking it up on the fly will give you enough to get by, but you will not get the details right without formal classes and study.

If you're looking at some of the Northern European countries where English is widely spoken as a second language e.g. Scandinavia & Finland and the Netherlands, then you might struggle somewhat to pick up languages as you simply won't get the opportunity to practice. My experience of the Dutch is they will kind of turn around and go "I speak English! FFS!" when you're trying to practice your Dutch.

The situation in France is that basically they speak about as much English as we speak French, so you'll learn fast.
Spain's the same! Don't expect *any* English outside of the coastal resorts.
Germany, likewise, people do speak English but you certainly will have to learn German to get by on a normal basis.

Depending on your ability, and it does vary a lot from person to person, it could take you anything from 12 months to 5 years to become proficient in a language. It also very much depends on how different the target language is from English. For example, you're unlikely to pick up say Finnish or Hungarian very quickly as they're radically different from most European languages. Most English speakers will pick up Swedish/Danish/Norwegian, Dutch, German, French, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese quite quickly. The Germanic languages share a common root with English so, once you crack the vocabulary the grammar and structure tends to feel fairly familiar. French, Spanish and the romance languages are also very familiar as English has a huge chunk of Latin (particularly French-origin) vocabulary and most of us have been exposed to French at school.
When you look at Slavic languages, you won't really be very familiar and you'll have to do a lot of learning of basics.

Closer European languages also have the advantage of having similar phonemes (basic sounds) to English. Or, at least they're similar enough to survive using proximate ones from English, although your accent will sound very foreign. After a certain age, your brain stops recognising anything other than the phonemes in your native language(s). So, many people can find it quite difficult to crack the sound system in other languages after childhood. However, it can be done, particularly if you're totally immersed in a language all the time. Again, some people lose this ability more than other as they age. If you've a musical ear, or you're a good mimic / pick up accents easily, you're quite likely not to have a huge problem with this.

One thing that can be very worth doing is to do an English-teaching qualification, particularly CELTA (at UCC or International House in Dublin) before you travel. It only takes a few weeks, but it can be a useful source of income while you're building up your new language. However, don't expect to be able to make a huge income out of it.

To teach in many countries, you will need at least this AND an undergraduate degree.

It can be a good money-spinner while you're setting yourself up and acclimatising though.

Just be ware that there are loads of scam-like English teaching qualifications out there which aren't recognised. So, seek advice from ACELS (Advisory Council for English Language Schools) if you're looking at something that isn't from Cambridge (CELTA/DELTA etc) http://www.acels.ie/

Also, bare in mind that you can have vast variations between regions in EU countries. E.g. if you take our nearest neighbour, compare say London, Newcastle and Glasgow, they're very different places. The same kinds of differences apply in all EU countries and certain cities can also have very difficult accents and dialects, so ALWAYS seek local advice / advise from a national of that country living in Ireland before you go

The main thing is, if you do go, throw yourself into the local culture and just absorb and be part of it and you'll get on really well!

The absolute worst thing you can do in the long term is spend your time hanging out with the local Irish/Brits and Americans all the time. Some people seem to exclusively hang out with expats and, they never really manage to connect with their new surrounding sand language.

ejmaztec

ejmaztec wrote: »

I suppose it's possible if you've got a brain the size of a pumpkin, and can store in three months what one of the natives has spent 20 odd years learning.

Which is not the case for Benny It's impressive how easily he gets the basics down, but that's all he does. He's good at pretending he speaks languages, IMO.

I think the key factor here is motivation. If you have a genuine interest in a language, you'll learn it. If you're doing it because you have to or you think you should, it'll be an uphill struggle.

nozzferrahhtoo

Jenna Thundering Thermometer wrote: »

Emigrants I want your experinece learning languages and working in Europe.

I moved to Germany a few years ago. Actually during "the good times" in Ireland and I had a good job so it was a big decision to move. I certainly have no motivation to go back home given the state Ireland is in at the moment.

I am really terrible at languages and my attempts to learn German and to even motivate myself to keep trying have been terrible. I have gotten by with English very well all this time though. It is an embarrassment coming from an English language speaking country, where we do not even speak our own language let alone know a second one.... and find a country where people speak their own perfectly, English very very well most of the time, and usually a third language like French or Spanish to some proficiency.

Although I do get by with English I would still describe living in Germany without German as feeling somewhat like having a handicap. I can think of no better analogy to describe what it feels like. People are always happy to look past your handicaps and make you feel like they are not an issue... but they are always still there.

Despite that feeling the quality of life here, the weather, the medical system, the transport system and much more mean that I am happy to stay here and likely would not be tempted to move home even if Ireland cleaned up all the current problems. There are some things that might motivate me to return in the future, but they are not things that are currently an issue now.

Apanachi

prinz wrote: »

You may become conversant enough to survive a holiday, basic meetings etc. but there's not a hope you are going to become 'fluent'. Fluent is one of the most misused words in the English language.

I would define "fluent" as being able to speak the language effortlessly (which I did after less than 6 months - I did have basic school German first though, so that would have been a great help)

Speaking a language fluently doesn't necessarily mean speaking it flawlessly

ejmaztec

Lilly Cold Gorilla wrote: »

Which is not the case for Benny It's impressive how easily he gets the basics down, but that's all he does. He's good at pretending he speaks languages, IMO.

I think the key factor here is motivation. If you have a genuine interest in a language, you'll learn it. If you're doing it because you have to or you think you should, it'll be an uphill struggle.

Benny's probably fluent in Bullsh1t, and all related dialects.:D

Solair

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

...

I am really terrible at languages and my attempts to learn German and to even motivate myself to keep trying have been terrible. I have gotten by with English very well all this time though. It is an embarrassment coming from an English language speaking country, where we do not even speak our own language let alone know a second one.... and find a country where people speak their own perfectly, English very very well most of the time, and usually a third language like French or Spanish to some proficiency.
.

I think it's just a case of coming from a country that speaks the de facto global language. It's basically, the new Latin. You can't really avoid learning English anymore if you intend to do international business. So, don't feel too bad about the fact that we don't speak fluent German in Ireland. The reality is that we don't have to. It might be an advantage to learn it, but it's much more of an optional add-on than learning English is for a German.

With the rise of Asia, and movements away from European countries being 'big', English is rising even faster as it's become the international second language that the business community and global media communicate in.

The internet has also driven this even faster, as if you want to access the majority of the web and of online media, you need to understand English.

Native English-speakers also just don't consume almost any non-English speaking media, other than watching the odd art-house film. That's just because we usually don't have any need to. Everything that we need is presented to us in English and the English-speaking media is just vast. So, we don't really tend explore beyond that and if we do, it's translated.

A similar situation exists in Spain for example, Spanish is just such a huge global language, that it is quite possible to go through life, listening almost entirely to Spanish media, Spanish-speaking music etc that you will never have to use anything else. You'll also find that a lot of business transactions can take place entirely in Spanish and that Spanish-speakers will be accommodated.

If you're from say Denmark, not very many people outside Denmark speak Danish so you have to learn English or German.

German is basically just a large European language, it's not global.

French is only spoken in a few places and not all that many people speak it as a second language.

The only languages that really hit the mark of being truly enormous languages are English, Spanish and Mandarin Chinese.

English-speakers in all English-speaking countries are amongst the least likely to speak a second language. It's simply because they don't have to. It's not because we're somehow lazy / intellectually inferior.

The reality is that something close to 90% of school children globally learn English vs ~ 30% of any other language e.g. French.

nozzferrahhtoo

Solair wrote: »

I think it's just a case of coming from a country that speaks the de facto global language.

Oh I am fully aware of the motivational factors that you so effectively adumbrate as to why people in English speaking countries do not learn foreign languages well, or in some cases at all. It still does not make it any less embarrassing to lack the capabilities that some people make look so easy is all I am saying.

I have an innate but massive respect for anyone who is able to speak more than one language. To me language is not just about communication but is also about culture and history too. It is near impossible to learn a language without learning much about a countries culture too, as that is where most of our words, and how we use them, come from.

So as you say there are motivational factors as to why we do not learn it, but that does not mean there is not also some laziness involved too. A good analogy is history. There is not all that much motivation for people to be aware of history, even the history of their own country. There is a lot to be said for those that learn it anyway and I respect people who learn simply for the sake of learning.

IvyTheTerrible

Solair wrote: »

French is only spoken in a few places and not all that many people speak it as a second language.

In fairness 200 million people speak french as a first or second language. There are enormous amounts of people speaking french in Africa.

Solair

I agree, and I think particularly in Ireland and Britain a lot more needs to be done to teach languages at primary level. We don't bother picking up languages at school until we're far too old to pick them up quickly.

There's also probably far too much focus on French in Britain and Ireland which ignores major languages like German and Spanish.

I always found it strange in Spain (away from the costas) that Americans suddenly become the educated and sophisticated tourists, unlike their stereotype in France, as they tend to speak very good Spanish! Where as the French, British, Irish, Germans etc are struggling or trying to speak English at Spanish people!!

syklops

I moved to the Czech Republic two years ago and really recommend it. Language wise, I know enough to get buy. I can ask for directions, order food, buy beer. I have a vocabulary of about 2000 words now, but I can't converse. It is a very difficult language as words change depending on the situation and gender.

For example, in the fourth case, an 'a' at the end of a word gets replaced with a 'u', unless it is a masculine inanimate object, then it does not change. To be grammatically correct, I need to draw out little diagrams. Plus I dont really know when to use the fourth case, so I just guess and get it right about 50% of the time.

That said I work for an American multinational so I dont need to for my job, and I hang out with a diverse group of people spanning Irish, Scottish, Macedonian and others, and we all speak english. Also I dont have a TV. If I did, I would watch a bit of Czech TV and pick up a bit more.

When I came over I learnt a few strategic phrases, and they helped me out a lot. Its also amazing how much you can converse with body language. Very often people ask me something, and by their body language I know what they are saying.

The other thing to remember is that in continental europe English is taught in schools to a much higher standard than French is taught in our schools, so if you are ever in real trouble, just get a teenager to translate for you and buy them a coke or something in return.

The company I am working for is desperate for programmers, QA engineers, and a variety of other things. What area are you in?

Whereever you go, I say definitely do it!

pickarooney

I could speak/write Dutch fluently after a year, but only after I got a job in a 100% Dutch-speaking environment. It can be really hard to get the practice when working with English-speaking locals.

No such problems in France. It's sink or swim and 6 months should be enough if you make the effort.

prinz

Apanachi wrote: »

I would define "fluent" as being able to speak the language effortlessly...

If that's the criterion then there are middle aged men running our country who aren't fluent in English . So you are saying in less than six months you had the ability to discuss any topic in depth, an understanding of idioms/adages, wordplays, were able to recognise references to the classics of German literature, the etymology of German words and grammar for example? My respects. Nozzferrahhtoo said it best above, about tying the language into the history and culture of a people.

Apanachi wrote: »

Speaking a language fluently doesn't necessarily mean speaking it flawlessly

Depends again on what you consider fluent I suppose. Knowing enough of a language to 'get by' is not what I'd consider fluent, until you can express yourself as well as someone born, and raised in a certain language then IMO you are not fluent.

Solair

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

In fairness 200 million people speak french as a first or second language. There are enormous amounts of people speaking french in Africa.

True, but as a business language in Europe it's not all that useful compared to German which is still a minority language in schools in Ireland.

phill106

Jenna Thundering Thermometer wrote: »

Emigrants I want your experinece learning languages and working in Europe.

It takes balls to learn another language as an adult...
Considering your username, should be no problem!

Solair

prinz wrote: »

If that's the criterion then there are middle aged men running our country who aren't fluent in English . So you are saying in less than six months you had the ability to discuss any topic in depth, an understanding of idioms/adages, wordplays, were able to recognise references to the classics of German literature, the etymology of German words and grammar for example? My respects. Nozzferrahhtoo said it best above, about tying the language into the history and culture of a people.



Depends again on what you consider fluent I suppose. Knowing enough of a language to 'get by' is not what I'd consider fluent, until you can express yourself as well as someone born, and raised in a certain language then IMO you are not fluent.

There are plenty of awl-fellas up the mountains in Germany who aren't all that fluent in standard German either

pickarooney

prinz wrote: »

Depends again on what you consider fluent I suppose. Knowing enough of a language to 'get by' is not what I'd consider fluent, until you can express yourself as well as someone born, and raised in a certain language then IMO you are not fluent.

By its very definition 'fluent' refers only to the ability to speak a language without hesitation and knowledge of a culture, history or any of the rest bears no relation to fluency. If it did, you wouldn't describe a three-year-old as fluent in his native language when he quite clearly is. As for being able to express yourself clearly, this varies so much from person to person within a linguistic subset that it's a vague enough notion at best. Many native speakers have a poor enough grasp of their own language and even poorer levels of self-expression. They would still be fluent, but not quite proficient, which is what you're describing.

Apanachi

prinz wrote: »

the ability to discuss any topic in depth

Not ANY topic e.g. scientific or specialised topics, no (but even in English I can't discuss any random specialty topic) but, yes, I could hold in depth conversations in German

an understanding of idioms/adages, wordplays

Quite a lot of them, yes

were able to recognise references to the classics of German literature

No, but I know a hell of a lot of Germans who can't do that either (that has nothing to do with language understanding, I just hadn't read any classics of German literature...

the etymology of German words and grammar for example?

I actually enjoy researching word origins, so for a lot of new words I picked up, I would have looked into them, so partially, yes .

As for the grammar, I had a very good grasp of that before I arrived in Germany


But as I said, I spoke effortlessly (of let's say with little effort) not perfectly

pickarooney wrote: »

By its very definition 'fluent' refers only to the ability to speak a language without hesitation and knowledge of a culture, history or any of the rest bears no relation to fluency. If it did, you wouldn't describe a three-year-old as fluent in his native language when he quite clearly is. As for being able to express yourself clearly, this varies so much from person to person within a linguistic subset that it's a vague enough notion at best. Many native speakers have a poor enough grasp of their own language and even poorer levels of self-expression. They would still be fluent, but not quite proficient, which is what you're describing.

+1

inforfun

I think there is a big difference being able to speak a language when socialising and having to speak that same language in a business environment.
I am Dutch and have no issues speaking English but I would feel a whole lot less comfortable having to do my job speaking English.

Op,
If you move to Holland dont bother about learning Dutch. Most Dutch people speak English and there are already in between 1 and 2 million imports who didnt bother to learn Dutch despite the fact they live there 20+ years.

syklops

Apanachi wrote: »

Not ANY topic e.g. scientific or specialised topics, no (but even in English I can't discuss any random specialty topic)


Quite a lot of them, yes



No, but I know a hell of a lot of germans who can't do that either (that has nothing to do with language understanding, I just hadn't read any classics of German literature...



I actually enjoy researching word origins, so for a lot of new words I picked up, I would have looked into them, so partially, yes .

As for the grammar, I had a very good grasp of that before I arrived in Germany


But as I said, I spoke effortlessly (of let's say with little effort) not perfectly

I envy you.

Speaking of cultures, do Germans encourage you to speak well? I get the feeling they would friendly encourage you. I am not using it as an excuse for my limited czech, but a bigger group of grammar nazis you will not find.

It can get very annoying when I make tiny little mistakes and they say things like "Thats all wrong". I once got very pissed off with a guy in work. I wrote a sentence in a chatroom, and he said "Thats completely wrong". It turned out I had forgottent o change an 'a' to a 'u'. I replied back that since we are on the subject of pedantry, the phrase "Thats completely wrong" would suggest that the entire sentence was wrong, when it is not, and therefore your sentence is incorrect also Or words along those lines. I was fuming at the time.

IvyTheTerrible

pickarooney wrote: »

By its very definition 'fluent' refers only to the ability to speak a language without hesitation and knowledge of a culture, history or any of the rest bears no relation to fluency. If it did, you wouldn't describe a three-year-old as fluent in his native language when he quite clearly is. As for being able to express yourself clearly, this varies so much from person to person within a linguistic subset that it's a vague enough notion at best. Many native speakers have a poor enough grasp of their own language and even poorer levels of self-expression. They would still be fluent, but not quite proficient, which is what you're describing.

I agree with this. I've been in France 2 years (arriving with Leaving Cert level french) and now I'm very comfortable speaking (even though I do make grammar mistakes) and I can have in-depth discussions on lots of subjects. However, I'm certainly not "culturally fluent", there are lots of famous people I don't know of etc etc. It's a complete different thing, in my opinion.

Apanachi

syklops wrote: »

Speaking of cultures, do Germans encourage you to speak well? I get the feeling they would friendly encourage you. I am not using it as an excuse for my limited czech, but a bigger group of grammar nazis you will not find.

I found they did encourage me (only after i insisted on speaking German though - at first they thought speaking to me would be a great chance to practise their English )

They didn't correct every single little mistake, but definitely the larger ones and I have to say they did it in a non-condescending way, they were impressed that I made use of the basics I had and that I made the effort to learn the language

I envy you.

I think having a love of languages was a great help to me, some people are good at science, maths, sports etc... my strength was languages (and I was (am) terrible at physics and chemistry )

prinz

pickarooney wrote: »

By its very definition 'fluent' refers only to the ability to speak a language without hesitation and knowledge of a culture, history or any of the rest bears no relation to fluency..

..and I don't think you can speak a language without hesitation, including a massive knowledge of vocabulary and using and recognising all the linguistic quirks I alluded to earlier, in six months plus an Irish secondary level education. Like I said you may be able to get by but personally I wouldn't describe it as being fluent. If you can bamboozle someone with one straightforward sentence then I wouldn't consider that person fluent.

Again I'd consider someone fluent at ILR Level 5, and I don't believe that is something that vast majority of people can pick up in six months, note ILR Level 5 also relates language to the culture.