Irish women forced to cancel assisted-suicide trip

Biggins · 05-05-2011 02:54PM

irelandrover wrote: »

I didn't mean to make it look like you did actually. I apologise. Just wanted to point out that they weren't forced to cancel their trip.

No problem.

Certainly if they cancelled their trip, I would hazard a guess that some sort of pressure from the Gardi was applied to do so.
Some might use the word "forced" in that context then.

CD. · 05-05-2011 02:57PM

how can she be prosecuted for something that is illegal here, but is legal in the country that it was commited in?

i do not understand how ireland would have any jurisdiction in a case like that?

by those standards if i went to amsterdam and tried hash i could be prosecuted here because it's illegal here.

seamus · 05-05-2011 03:00PM

Amalgam wrote: »

My understanding is that Dignitas have a system where the 'patient' starts the process themselves, through 'body input', visual, or some sort of mechanism, blowing into a tube, etc..

What kind of charge could they level at the partner, being in the same room, accessory?

jc84 wrote: »

it doesn't even come under there jurisdiction surely

ShooterSF wrote: »

Is Dignitas illegal in Switzerland or do our national laws now extend our boundaries?

It's illegal to aid & abet someone in committing suicide or attempting to commit suicide. The word "abet" is the important one, because it basically means that if you provide any support or encouragement, then you have committed an offence. Travelling with someone who is intent on ending their life would be seen as providing support & encouragement. That is, if you didn't want them to do it, you wouldn't go with them.

It doesn't matter where the suicide takes place so long as the "aid & abet" bit takes place in Ireland.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0011/sec0002.html#sec2

the_syco · 05-05-2011 03:08PM

KH25 wrote: »

I wonder how did the gardaí find out about their plans?

I'd say some pro-lifer or "good christian" informed the Gardai.

Apart from walking in front of a high-speed train (happens every few months, it seems), there's not much she'll be able to do.

05-05-2011 03:11PM

Avah Tiny Ivy wrote: »

The women, one of whom is in the final stage of multiple sclerosis

MS is only directly life threatening in less than 1% of cases.
It is a degenerative condition, there is no final stage as such.

Biggins · 05-05-2011 03:11PM

the_syco wrote: »

I'd say some pro-lifer or "good christian" informed the Gardai.

I'm guessing but I might say it could be more close to home?
A member of family who got wind of the poor inflicted persons actions.

g_moriarty · 05-05-2011 03:11PM

TheZohan wrote: »

Only one would be dead. It's an emotive subject, especially when the lady in question is suffering, and that's the key word, from MS.

I had been suffering with MS for years, finally made the switch to Ubuntu 11.04 and have been happier since

seamus · 05-05-2011 03:11PM

the_syco wrote: »

Apart from walking in front of a high-speed train (happens every few months, it seems), there's not much she'll be able to do.

There's plenty she can do and may end up doing. But she clearly wanted to die with some painless dignity and instead the law requires that she opts for more painful methods (both for her and her loved ones).

mconigol · 05-05-2011 03:15PM

What implications does this have for women who travel abroad for abortions?

seamus · 05-05-2011 03:19PM

mconigol wrote: »

What implications does this have for women who travel abroad for abortions?

None.

It's not a precedent or any kind of new thing. Despite the headline, no-one has been "forced" to do anything.

The women were informed of the law and what may happen on the living woman's return. They were not however actually prevented from going abroad, and they certainly cannot stop the ill woman from going on her own.

Biggins · 05-05-2011 03:23PM

mconigol wrote: »

What implications does this have for women who travel abroad for abortions?

There was a case a number of years ago when a girl wanted to travel to England for an abortion.
She was stopped.
It ended up in the Irish courts and its was decided that her right to travel had been infringed upon.
At the time it was a so called landmark case.

ShooterSF · 05-05-2011 03:23PM

seamus wrote: »

It's illegal to aid & abet someone in committing suicide or attempting to commit suicide. The word "abet" is the important one, because it basically means that if you provide any support or encouragement, then you have committed an offence. Travelling with someone who is intent on ending their life would be seen as providing support & encouragement. That is, if you didn't want them to do it, you wouldn't go with them.

It doesn't matter where the suicide takes place so long as the "aid & abet" bit takes place in Ireland.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0011/sec0002.html#sec2

Thanks for clarifying the law.

That is terrible. So she has to leave her family and friends and go to another country alone to die yet no political party seems concerned over our lack of rights when it comes to euthanasia

mconigol · 05-05-2011 03:24PM

seamus wrote: »

None.

It's not a precedent or any kind of new thing. Despite the headline, no-one has been "forced" to do anything.

The women were informed of the law and what may happen on the living woman's return. They were not however actually prevented from going abroad, and they certainly cannot stop the ill woman from going on her own.

Yeah I understand that.

I'm just wondering if it's a similar crime to "assist" with an abortion for example?

mconigol · 05-05-2011 03:25PM

Biggins wrote: »

There was a case a number of years ago when a girl wanted to travel to England for an abortion.
She was stopped.
It ended up in the Irish courts and its was decided that her right to travel had been infringed upon.
At the time it was a so called landmark case.

Yeah I seem to remember that now actually.

Biggins · 05-05-2011 03:27PM

mconigol wrote: »

Yeah I seem to remember that now actually.

Flashback:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6618911.stm

Dravokivich · 05-05-2011 03:28PM

Sounds like it coulda been the holiday of a lifetime...

:pac:

aido179 · 05-05-2011 03:35PM

g_moriarty wrote: »

I had been suffering with MS for years, finally made the switch to Ubuntu 11.04 and have been happier since

I really don't want to laugh at that but that was funny...

endabob1 · 05-05-2011 03:37PM

What a Farce, it's the Miss X case all over again, how can the Govt restrict an individual's right to travel.
I voted in that referendum in the early 90's that was supposed to allow travel for abortion, surely this falls under the same categorisation?

seamus · 05-05-2011 03:38PM

mconigol wrote: »

I'm just wondering if it's a similar crime to "assist" with an abortion for example?

No, the last constitutional amendment on abortion specifically made it legal to make information services on abortion available within the state. If it was illegal to "aid, abet, assist in procuring" an abortion, then that would be in direct conflict with the constitution.

Afaik, the "Offences against the Person Act 1861" is still the law on abortion in this country. Which goes to show just how behind we are.

mconigol · 05-05-2011 03:50PM

seamus wrote: »

No, the last constitutional amendment on abortion specifically made it legal to make information services on abortion available within the state. If it was illegal to "aid, abet, assist in procuring" an abortion, then that would be in direct conflict with the constitution.

Afaik, the "Offences against the Person Act 1861" is still the law on abortion in this country. Which goes to show just how behind we are.

Ah right, thanks for the explanation, cheers!

Don't really see how assisted suicide should be treated any different then to be honest. At least the person has the choice in that case!

Biggins · 05-05-2011 03:55PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

...So she has to leave her family and friends and go to another country alone to die yet no political party seems concerned over our lack of rights when it comes to euthanasia

...And you will see no time soon, any of the main parties wishing to get involved with this issue either.
All will be trying to avoid total involvement/comment/opinion of the matter for their own party reasons.

Best not to rock the boat and effect any one voting community that might shy away from them giving their any possible stance on the issue!

Cool_CM · 05-05-2011 04:01PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

Is Dignitas illegal in Switzerland or do our national laws now extend our boundaries?

Not illegal, but generally viewed as the ryanair of assisted suicide organisations in Switzerland. They are also the reason that I don't go swimming in Lake Zurich.

ShooterSF · 05-05-2011 04:40PM

Cool_CM wrote: »

Not illegal, but generally viewed as the ryanair of assisted suicide organisations in Switzerland. They are also the reason that I don't go swimming in Lake Zurich.

Interesting read. I'd much rather they go to a landfill tbh but why would you not go swimming? the ashes are hardly an environmental risk. You're not afraid of a Cartman and Kenny situation are you? :P (Sorry if you don't get the reference)

vampire of kilmainham · 07-05-2011 12:11AM

id just kill myself at home and wouldent involve anyone fcuking governments and laws stating that you should live in agoney load of bollix

Capt'n Midnight · 07-05-2011 12:57AM

poisonedstream wrote: »

The women would be dead....how could they be charged?

Actually not so long back suicide was a crime in this country. (technically speaking someone was murdered, even if by themselves)

Not sure if true but I've heard that way way back in Europe you'd be hanged if you attempted suicide and failed

Capt'n Midnight · 07-05-2011 12:58AM

Biggins wrote: »

Aye, a strange case.
If they were forced to cancel their trip, I think there are legal implications here that need to be looked at again by someone!

Switzerland isn't in the EU.
If it were somewhere in the EU then the whole goods and services thing applies

Is this the whole right to travel refernedum again ?

[edit] oh yeah seen your other post

Irish women forced to cancel assisted-suicide trip

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