Irish women forced to cancel assisted-suicide trip

7sr2z3fely84g5 · 05-05-2011 12:19pm #1

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2011/0505/ireland/pro-choice-group-shocked-as-irish-women-forced-to-cancel-assisted-suicide-trip-503792.html

Pro-choice grop Exit International Ireland has described as "shocking" the case of two Irish women who tried to travel to Switzerland for assisted suicide, but learned they could be liable for prosecution if they did so and then cancelled their plans.

The women, one of whom is in the final stage of multiple sclerosis, had booked flights to Switzerland
and were due to attend the Dignitas clinic.

However, gardaí became aware of their plans and the women were forced to cancel their trip when they learned they could be prosecuted if they availaed of the assisted-suicide services available att he clinic.

Assisted suicide is a criminal offence in Ireland. Anyone found guilty of the offence could face up to 14 years in prison.

Tom Curran from Exit International Ireland, which is a pro-choice group, is calling on the Government to take action:

said that help should be made available to "rational people that decide that their terminal illness is no longer something that they can tolerate", and that "that should get assistance to hasten the end of their life".

Nanny state strikes again.

thefinalstage · 05-05-2011 12:21pm

The women would be dead....how could they be charged?

FatherLen · 05-05-2011 12:21pm

imo, if someone is in an incredible amount of pain and nothing can be done to improve the quality of life then the person should be allowed to do what they want.

TheZohanS · 05-05-2011 12:23pm

poisonedstream wrote: »

The women would be dead....how could they be charged?

Only one would be dead. It's an emotive subject, especially when the lady in question is suffering, and that's the key word, from MS.

sensibleken · 05-05-2011 12:23pm

wait......what?

If they commited suicide they would be prosecuted

Biggins · 05-05-2011 12:25pm

sensibleken wrote: »

wait......what?

If they commited suicide they would be prosecuted

Aye, a strange case.
If they were forced to cancel their trip, I think there are legal implications here that need to be looked at again by someone!

Duggy747 · 05-05-2011 12:25pm

The woman returning would be arrested.

You have the right to life but apparently not the right to die.

volvick · 05-05-2011 12:25pm

FatherLen wrote: »

imo, if someone is in an incredible amount of pain and nothing can be done to improve the quality of life then the person should be allowed to do what they want.

I agree!

People put pets down who have a bad quality of life, sick, in pain, when it is cruel to keep them alive but yet people are expected to keep going. This country needs to change!

krudler · 05-05-2011 12:26pm

We shoot horses when they break their legs and put dogs down when they have to live in pain as the humane thing to do, but other humans have to live a life of suffering, it boggles the mind.

landsleaving · 05-05-2011 12:28pm

Surely they could have just said they were going on holidays, then when the woman who wasn't suffering from MS returned, she could just say "Oh I can't believe it, she was only going to die, I never knew, etc." What could they do?

How did the Gardai find out? And why did they actually stop her? Some common sense from them would have gone a long way.

KH25 · 05-05-2011 12:30pm

I'd like to hear more about this. I wonder how did the gardaí find out about their plans? My heart really goes out to the woman with multiple sclerosis. I would never want to live like that and she should be free to end her life as she sees fit. Its not like she's going through a hard time and wants to kill herself, she's suffering from a horrible illness thats just going to keep getting worse.

Cupcake_Crisis · 05-05-2011 12:33pm

It's completely ridiculous imo. If she is in severe pain and there's no sign of relief then her suffering shouldn't be prolonged. It cruel! And her family/ friends shouldn't be punished for carrying out her wishes

KH25 · 05-05-2011 12:33pm

Duggy747 wrote: »

The woman returning would be arrested.

You have the right to life but apparently not the right to die.

Actually, you have the right to die 'a natural death'. Unfortunately that basically means you are allowed to die when your body finally gives up regardless of whatever pain and suffering you went through.

dr gonzo · 05-05-2011 12:43pm

FatherLen wrote: »

imo, if someone is in an incredible amount of pain and nothing can be done to improve the quality of life then the person should be allowed to do what they want.

A person should be allowed to do what they want regardless, no? In relation to themselves i mean.

thefinalstage · 05-05-2011 12:45pm

I understand now....that's just crazy. People should be allowed to choose. While I believe it should only be offered after a psychological analysis to be sure they are of sound mind.

Biggins · 05-05-2011 12:47pm

poisonedstream wrote: »

I understand now....that's just crazy. People should be allowed to choose. While I believe it should only be offered after a psychological analysis to be sure they are of sound mind.

We're back to the debate of whats right and whats wrong in taking ones life.

...But in this case, the uniqueness of the situation is that of traveling just to a country could be forced to be stopped - that alone has worrying legal implications!

opinion guy · 05-05-2011 12:52pm

As I said on the other thread there might well be more to this story than what we are privvy too.
Someone tipped off the guards. Which means other people know about this plan and disagree with it. Now this may well be out of conviction that assissted suicide is wrong, but it could equally be that the person travelign to die is under the influence of the person assisting in some way.

The cops can't just stop people from travelling. Makes me think there is more to this story

Pepe LeFrits · 05-05-2011 12:57pm

Does this mean the Gardai will now start prosecuting long-haired students who go to Amsterdam?

old_aussie · 05-05-2011 1:01pm

How can you stop a person from going on holidays?

Only in Ireland :rolleyes:

Micky Dolenz · 05-05-2011 1:07pm

poisonedstream wrote: »

I understand now....that's just crazy. People should be allowed to choose. While I believe it should only be offered after a psychological analysis to be sure they are of sound mind.

Very hard to have a sound mind when you are in constant and relentless agony. It wears you down mentally .

Amalgam · 05-05-2011 1:09pm

Don't worry, this is all a last twitch of resistance to 'new thinking'.. give it ten to twenty years and they'll be giving you tax breaks during your life, in return for wearing some miraculously painless patch or similar, that pops your clogs at a defined age.

SirenX · 05-05-2011 1:12pm

I think anyone who is in that much pain should be allowed to take there own life, if illness is terminal

I'd like to think that I will be in charge of my own death.
but that will never happen in this country

landsleaving · 05-05-2011 1:12pm

Amalgam wrote: »

Don't worry, this is all a last twitch of resistance to 'new thinking'.. give it ten to twenty years and they'll be giving you tax breaks during your life, in return for wearing some miraculously painless patch or similar, that pops your clogs at a defined age.

Logan's Run?

Amalgam · 05-05-2011 1:17pm

Not quite that umm.. 'active', but I do think once the demographics (lots of OAP's) start burdening the system, at least one or more European country will make things far easier.

I am convinced you'll be encouraged within 20 years.. Life option, choose where and when to die..

irelandrover · 05-05-2011 1:23pm

Biggins wrote: »

We're back to the debate of whats right and whats wrong in taking ones life.

...But in this case, the uniqueness of the situation is that of traveling just to a country could be forced to be stopped - that alone has worrying legal implications!

Judging from the article they weren't forced to cancel their flight as you claim. They were told that the woman would be arrested on returning to the country and due to this they cancelled the trip.

Amalgam · 05-05-2011 1:27pm

My understanding is that Dignitas have a system where the 'patient' starts the process themselves, through 'body input', visual, or some sort of mechanism, blowing into a tube, etc..

What kind of charge could they level at the partner, being in the same room, accessory?

UK Government tried this with a family that were in the same room as a person that started the process of Euthanasia. Not sure what the outcome was..

onlyrocknroll · 05-05-2011 1:33pm

The Gardai "became aware of their plans"?

Nice to know that some nosy p**ck heard about the poor woman's attempts to end her own suffering with dignity and thought f**k her I'll tell the Gaurds.

Biggins · 05-05-2011 1:42pm

irelandrover wrote: »

Judging from the article they weren't forced to cancel their flight as you claim. They were told that the woman would be arrested on returning to the country and due to this they cancelled the trip.

For the record - I don't claim that their trip was canceled - the first poster does - as does another poster of a similar thread.

I have said that IF this was the case if it turns out to be true, it could have further legal implications.

irelandrover · 05-05-2011 1:46pm

Biggins wrote: »

For the record - I don't claim that their trip was canceled - the first poster does - as does another poster of a similar thread.

I have said that IF this was the case if it turns out to be true, it could have further legal implications.

I didn't mean to make it look like you did actually. I apologise. Just wanted to point out that they weren't forced to cancel their trip.

jc84 · 05-05-2011 1:47pm

Why make her suffer any longer, she wouldn't be doing this if sum thing could be done for her, maybe the gardai should be prosecuted for causing her more pain, it doesn't even come under there jurisdiction surely

ShooterSF · 05-05-2011 1:51pm

Is Dignitas illegal in Switzerland or do our national laws now extend our boundaries?

Biggins · 05-05-2011 1:54pm

irelandrover wrote: »

I didn't mean to make it look like you did actually. I apologise. Just wanted to point out that they weren't forced to cancel their trip.

No problem.

Certainly if they cancelled their trip, I would hazard a guess that some sort of pressure from the Gardi was applied to do so.
Some might use the word "forced" in that context then.

CD. · 05-05-2011 1:57pm

how can she be prosecuted for something that is illegal here, but is legal in the country that it was commited in?

i do not understand how ireland would have any jurisdiction in a case like that?

by those standards if i went to amsterdam and tried hash i could be prosecuted here because it's illegal here.

seamus · 05-05-2011 2:00pm

Amalgam wrote: »

My understanding is that Dignitas have a system where the 'patient' starts the process themselves, through 'body input', visual, or some sort of mechanism, blowing into a tube, etc..

What kind of charge could they level at the partner, being in the same room, accessory?

jc84 wrote: »

it doesn't even come under there jurisdiction surely

ShooterSF wrote: »

Is Dignitas illegal in Switzerland or do our national laws now extend our boundaries?

It's illegal to aid & abet someone in committing suicide or attempting to commit suicide. The word "abet" is the important one, because it basically means that if you provide any support or encouragement, then you have committed an offence. Travelling with someone who is intent on ending their life would be seen as providing support & encouragement. That is, if you didn't want them to do it, you wouldn't go with them.

It doesn't matter where the suicide takes place so long as the "aid & abet" bit takes place in Ireland.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0011/sec0002.html#sec2

the_syco · 05-05-2011 2:08pm

KH25 wrote: »

I wonder how did the gardaí find out about their plans?

I'd say some pro-lifer or "good christian" informed the Gardai.

Apart from walking in front of a high-speed train (happens every few months, it seems), there's not much she'll be able to do.

05-05-2011 2:11pm

Avah Tiny Ivy wrote: »

The women, one of whom is in the final stage of multiple sclerosis

MS is only directly life threatening in less than 1% of cases.
It is a degenerative condition, there is no final stage as such.

Biggins · 05-05-2011 2:11pm

the_syco wrote: »

I'd say some pro-lifer or "good christian" informed the Gardai.

I'm guessing but I might say it could be more close to home?
A member of family who got wind of the poor inflicted persons actions.

g_moriarty · 05-05-2011 2:11pm

TheZohan wrote: »

Only one would be dead. It's an emotive subject, especially when the lady in question is suffering, and that's the key word, from MS.

I had been suffering with MS for years, finally made the switch to Ubuntu 11.04 and have been happier since

seamus · 05-05-2011 2:11pm

the_syco wrote: »

Apart from walking in front of a high-speed train (happens every few months, it seems), there's not much she'll be able to do.

There's plenty she can do and may end up doing. But she clearly wanted to die with some painless dignity and instead the law requires that she opts for more painful methods (both for her and her loved ones).

mconigol · 05-05-2011 2:15pm

What implications does this have for women who travel abroad for abortions?

seamus · 05-05-2011 2:19pm

mconigol wrote: »

What implications does this have for women who travel abroad for abortions?

None.

It's not a precedent or any kind of new thing. Despite the headline, no-one has been "forced" to do anything.

The women were informed of the law and what may happen on the living woman's return. They were not however actually prevented from going abroad, and they certainly cannot stop the ill woman from going on her own.

Biggins · 05-05-2011 2:23pm

mconigol wrote: »

What implications does this have for women who travel abroad for abortions?

There was a case a number of years ago when a girl wanted to travel to England for an abortion.
She was stopped.
It ended up in the Irish courts and its was decided that her right to travel had been infringed upon.
At the time it was a so called landmark case.

ShooterSF · 05-05-2011 2:23pm

seamus wrote: »

It's illegal to aid & abet someone in committing suicide or attempting to commit suicide. The word "abet" is the important one, because it basically means that if you provide any support or encouragement, then you have committed an offence. Travelling with someone who is intent on ending their life would be seen as providing support & encouragement. That is, if you didn't want them to do it, you wouldn't go with them.

It doesn't matter where the suicide takes place so long as the "aid & abet" bit takes place in Ireland.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0011/sec0002.html#sec2

Thanks for clarifying the law.

That is terrible. So she has to leave her family and friends and go to another country alone to die yet no political party seems concerned over our lack of rights when it comes to euthanasia

mconigol · 05-05-2011 2:24pm

seamus wrote: »

None.

It's not a precedent or any kind of new thing. Despite the headline, no-one has been "forced" to do anything.

The women were informed of the law and what may happen on the living woman's return. They were not however actually prevented from going abroad, and they certainly cannot stop the ill woman from going on her own.

Yeah I understand that.

I'm just wondering if it's a similar crime to "assist" with an abortion for example?

mconigol · 05-05-2011 2:25pm

Biggins wrote: »

There was a case a number of years ago when a girl wanted to travel to England for an abortion.
She was stopped.
It ended up in the Irish courts and its was decided that her right to travel had been infringed upon.
At the time it was a so called landmark case.

Yeah I seem to remember that now actually.

Biggins · 05-05-2011 2:27pm

mconigol wrote: »

Yeah I seem to remember that now actually.

Flashback:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6618911.stm

Dravokivich · 05-05-2011 2:28pm

Sounds like it coulda been the holiday of a lifetime...

:pac:

aido179 · 05-05-2011 2:35pm

g_moriarty wrote: »

I had been suffering with MS for years, finally made the switch to Ubuntu 11.04 and have been happier since

I really don't want to laugh at that but that was funny...

endabob1 · 05-05-2011 2:37pm

What a Farce, it's the Miss X case all over again, how can the Govt restrict an individual's right to travel.
I voted in that referendum in the early 90's that was supposed to allow travel for abortion, surely this falls under the same categorisation?

seamus · 05-05-2011 2:38pm

mconigol wrote: »

I'm just wondering if it's a similar crime to "assist" with an abortion for example?

No, the last constitutional amendment on abortion specifically made it legal to make information services on abortion available within the state. If it was illegal to "aid, abet, assist in procuring" an abortion, then that would be in direct conflict with the constitution.

Afaik, the "Offences against the Person Act 1861" is still the law on abortion in this country. Which goes to show just how behind we are.

mconigol · 05-05-2011 2:50pm

seamus wrote: »

No, the last constitutional amendment on abortion specifically made it legal to make information services on abortion available within the state. If it was illegal to "aid, abet, assist in procuring" an abortion, then that would be in direct conflict with the constitution.

Afaik, the "Offences against the Person Act 1861" is still the law on abortion in this country. Which goes to show just how behind we are.

Ah right, thanks for the explanation, cheers!

Don't really see how assisted suicide should be treated any different then to be honest. At least the person has the choice in that case!

Irish women forced to cancel assisted-suicide trip

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