Emigration to Europe

nozzferrahhtoo · 04-05-2011 09:49AM

Jenna Thundering Thermometer wrote: »

Emigrants I want your experinece learning languages and working in Europe.

I moved to Germany a few years ago. Actually during "the good times" in Ireland and I had a good job so it was a big decision to move. I certainly have no motivation to go back home given the state Ireland is in at the moment.

I am really terrible at languages and my attempts to learn German and to even motivate myself to keep trying have been terrible. I have gotten by with English very well all this time though. It is an embarrassment coming from an English language speaking country, where we do not even speak our own language let alone know a second one.... and find a country where people speak their own perfectly, English very very well most of the time, and usually a third language like French or Spanish to some proficiency.

Although I do get by with English I would still describe living in Germany without German as feeling somewhat like having a handicap. I can think of no better analogy to describe what it feels like. People are always happy to look past your handicaps and make you feel like they are not an issue... but they are always still there.

Despite that feeling the quality of life here, the weather, the medical system, the transport system and much more mean that I am happy to stay here and likely would not be tempted to move home even if Ireland cleaned up all the current problems. There are some things that might motivate me to return in the future, but they are not things that are currently an issue now.

Apanachi · 04-05-2011 09:55AM

prinz wrote: »

You may become conversant enough to survive a holiday, basic meetings etc. but there's not a hope you are going to become 'fluent'. Fluent is one of the most misused words in the English language.

I would define "fluent" as being able to speak the language effortlessly (which I did after less than 6 months - I did have basic school German first though, so that would have been a great help)

Speaking a language fluently doesn't necessarily mean speaking it flawlessly

ejmaztec · 04-05-2011 09:56AM

Lilly Cold Gorilla wrote: »

Which is not the case for Benny It's impressive how easily he gets the basics down, but that's all he does. He's good at pretending he speaks languages, IMO.

I think the key factor here is motivation. If you have a genuine interest in a language, you'll learn it. If you're doing it because you have to or you think you should, it'll be an uphill struggle.

Benny's probably fluent in Bullsh1t, and all related dialects.:D

Solair · 04-05-2011 10:08AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

...

I am really terrible at languages and my attempts to learn German and to even motivate myself to keep trying have been terrible. I have gotten by with English very well all this time though. It is an embarrassment coming from an English language speaking country, where we do not even speak our own language let alone know a second one.... and find a country where people speak their own perfectly, English very very well most of the time, and usually a third language like French or Spanish to some proficiency.
.

I think it's just a case of coming from a country that speaks the de facto global language. It's basically, the new Latin. You can't really avoid learning English anymore if you intend to do international business. So, don't feel too bad about the fact that we don't speak fluent German in Ireland. The reality is that we don't have to. It might be an advantage to learn it, but it's much more of an optional add-on than learning English is for a German.

With the rise of Asia, and movements away from European countries being 'big', English is rising even faster as it's become the international second language that the business community and global media communicate in.

The internet has also driven this even faster, as if you want to access the majority of the web and of online media, you need to understand English.

Native English-speakers also just don't consume almost any non-English speaking media, other than watching the odd art-house film. That's just because we usually don't have any need to. Everything that we need is presented to us in English and the English-speaking media is just vast. So, we don't really tend explore beyond that and if we do, it's translated.

A similar situation exists in Spain for example, Spanish is just such a huge global language, that it is quite possible to go through life, listening almost entirely to Spanish media, Spanish-speaking music etc that you will never have to use anything else. You'll also find that a lot of business transactions can take place entirely in Spanish and that Spanish-speakers will be accommodated.

If you're from say Denmark, not very many people outside Denmark speak Danish so you have to learn English or German.

German is basically just a large European language, it's not global.

French is only spoken in a few places and not all that many people speak it as a second language.

The only languages that really hit the mark of being truly enormous languages are English, Spanish and Mandarin Chinese.

English-speakers in all English-speaking countries are amongst the least likely to speak a second language. It's simply because they don't have to. It's not because we're somehow lazy / intellectually inferior.

The reality is that something close to 90% of school children globally learn English vs ~ 30% of any other language e.g. French.

nozzferrahhtoo · 04-05-2011 10:14AM

Solair wrote: »

I think it's just a case of coming from a country that speaks the de facto global language.

Oh I am fully aware of the motivational factors that you so effectively adumbrate as to why people in English speaking countries do not learn foreign languages well, or in some cases at all. It still does not make it any less embarrassing to lack the capabilities that some people make look so easy is all I am saying.

I have an innate but massive respect for anyone who is able to speak more than one language. To me language is not just about communication but is also about culture and history too. It is near impossible to learn a language without learning much about a countries culture too, as that is where most of our words, and how we use them, come from.

So as you say there are motivational factors as to why we do not learn it, but that does not mean there is not also some laziness involved too. A good analogy is history. There is not all that much motivation for people to be aware of history, even the history of their own country. There is a lot to be said for those that learn it anyway and I respect people who learn simply for the sake of learning.

IvyTheTerrible · 04-05-2011 10:16AM

Solair wrote: »

French is only spoken in a few places and not all that many people speak it as a second language.

In fairness 200 million people speak french as a first or second language. There are enormous amounts of people speaking french in Africa.

Solair · 04-05-2011 10:19AM

I agree, and I think particularly in Ireland and Britain a lot more needs to be done to teach languages at primary level. We don't bother picking up languages at school until we're far too old to pick them up quickly.

There's also probably far too much focus on French in Britain and Ireland which ignores major languages like German and Spanish.

I always found it strange in Spain (away from the costas) that Americans suddenly become the educated and sophisticated tourists, unlike their stereotype in France, as they tend to speak very good Spanish! Where as the French, British, Irish, Germans etc are struggling or trying to speak English at Spanish people!!

syklops · 04-05-2011 10:19AM

I moved to the Czech Republic two years ago and really recommend it. Language wise, I know enough to get buy. I can ask for directions, order food, buy beer. I have a vocabulary of about 2000 words now, but I can't converse. It is a very difficult language as words change depending on the situation and gender.

For example, in the fourth case, an 'a' at the end of a word gets replaced with a 'u', unless it is a masculine inanimate object, then it does not change. To be grammatically correct, I need to draw out little diagrams. Plus I dont really know when to use the fourth case, so I just guess and get it right about 50% of the time.

That said I work for an American multinational so I dont need to for my job, and I hang out with a diverse group of people spanning Irish, Scottish, Macedonian and others, and we all speak english. Also I dont have a TV. If I did, I would watch a bit of Czech TV and pick up a bit more.

When I came over I learnt a few strategic phrases, and they helped me out a lot. Its also amazing how much you can converse with body language. Very often people ask me something, and by their body language I know what they are saying.

The other thing to remember is that in continental europe English is taught in schools to a much higher standard than French is taught in our schools, so if you are ever in real trouble, just get a teenager to translate for you and buy them a coke or something in return.

The company I am working for is desperate for programmers, QA engineers, and a variety of other things. What area are you in?

Whereever you go, I say definitely do it!

pickarooney · 04-05-2011 10:22AM

I could speak/write Dutch fluently after a year, but only after I got a job in a 100% Dutch-speaking environment. It can be really hard to get the practice when working with English-speaking locals.

No such problems in France. It's sink or swim and 6 months should be enough if you make the effort.

prinz · 04-05-2011 10:28AM

Apanachi wrote: »

I would define "fluent" as being able to speak the language effortlessly...

If that's the criterion then there are middle aged men running our country who aren't fluent in English

. So you are saying in less than six months you had the ability to discuss any topic in depth, an understanding of idioms/adages, wordplays, were able to recognise references to the classics of German literature, the etymology of German words and grammar for example? My respects. Nozzferrahhtoo said it best above, about tying the language into the history and culture of a people.

Apanachi wrote: »

Speaking a language fluently doesn't necessarily mean speaking it flawlessly

Depends again on what you consider fluent I suppose. Knowing enough of a language to 'get by' is not what I'd consider fluent, until you can express yourself as well as someone born, and raised in a certain language then IMO you are not fluent.

Solair · 04-05-2011 10:33AM

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

In fairness 200 million people speak french as a first or second language. There are enormous amounts of people speaking french in Africa.

True, but as a business language in Europe it's not all that useful compared to German which is still a minority language in schools in Ireland.

phill106 · 04-05-2011 10:34AM

Jenna Thundering Thermometer wrote: »

Emigrants I want your experinece learning languages and working in Europe.

It takes balls to learn another language as an adult...
Considering your username, should be no problem!

Solair · 04-05-2011 10:35AM

prinz wrote: »

If that's the criterion then there are middle aged men running our country who aren't fluent in English . So you are saying in less than six months you had the ability to discuss any topic in depth, an understanding of idioms/adages, wordplays, were able to recognise references to the classics of German literature, the etymology of German words and grammar for example? My respects. Nozzferrahhtoo said it best above, about tying the language into the history and culture of a people.

Depends again on what you consider fluent I suppose. Knowing enough of a language to 'get by' is not what I'd consider fluent, until you can express yourself as well as someone born, and raised in a certain language then IMO you are not fluent.

There are plenty of awl-fellas up the mountains in Germany who aren't all that fluent in standard German either

pickarooney · 04-05-2011 10:42AM

prinz wrote: »

Depends again on what you consider fluent I suppose. Knowing enough of a language to 'get by' is not what I'd consider fluent, until you can express yourself as well as someone born, and raised in a certain language then IMO you are not fluent.

By its very definition 'fluent' refers only to the ability to speak a language without hesitation and knowledge of a culture, history or any of the rest bears no relation to fluency. If it did, you wouldn't describe a three-year-old as fluent in his native language when he quite clearly is. As for being able to express yourself clearly, this varies so much from person to person within a linguistic subset that it's a vague enough notion at best. Many native speakers have a poor enough grasp of their own language and even poorer levels of self-expression. They would still be fluent, but not quite proficient, which is what you're describing.

Apanachi · 04-05-2011 10:44AM

prinz wrote: »

the ability to discuss any topic in depth

Not ANY topic e.g. scientific or specialised topics, no (but even in English I can't discuss any random specialty topic) but, yes, I could hold in depth conversations in German

an understanding of idioms/adages, wordplays

Quite a lot of them, yes

were able to recognise references to the classics of German literature

No, but I know a hell of a lot of Germans who can't do that either (that has nothing to do with language understanding, I just hadn't read any classics of German literature...

the etymology of German words and grammar for example?

I actually enjoy researching word origins, so for a lot of new words I picked up, I would have looked into them, so partially, yes .

As for the grammar, I had a very good grasp of that before I arrived in Germany

But as I said, I spoke effortlessly (of let's say with little effort) not perfectly

pickarooney wrote: »

By its very definition 'fluent' refers only to the ability to speak a language without hesitation and knowledge of a culture, history or any of the rest bears no relation to fluency. If it did, you wouldn't describe a three-year-old as fluent in his native language when he quite clearly is. As for being able to express yourself clearly, this varies so much from person to person within a linguistic subset that it's a vague enough notion at best. Many native speakers have a poor enough grasp of their own language and even poorer levels of self-expression. They would still be fluent, but not quite proficient, which is what you're describing.

+1

inforfun · 04-05-2011 10:50AM

I think there is a big difference being able to speak a language when socialising and having to speak that same language in a business environment.
I am Dutch and have no issues speaking English but I would feel a whole lot less comfortable having to do my job speaking English.

Op,
If you move to Holland dont bother about learning Dutch. Most Dutch people speak English and there are already in between 1 and 2 million imports who didnt bother to learn Dutch despite the fact they live there 20+ years.

syklops · 04-05-2011 10:54AM

Apanachi wrote: »

Not ANY topic e.g. scientific or specialised topics, no (but even in English I can't discuss any random specialty topic)

Quite a lot of them, yes

No, but I know a hell of a lot of germans who can't do that either (that has nothing to do with language understanding, I just hadn't read any classics of German literature...

I actually enjoy researching word origins, so for a lot of new words I picked up, I would have looked into them, so partially, yes .

As for the grammar, I had a very good grasp of that before I arrived in Germany

But as I said, I spoke effortlessly (of let's say with little effort) not perfectly

I envy you.

Speaking of cultures, do Germans encourage you to speak well? I get the feeling they would friendly encourage you. I am not using it as an excuse for my limited czech, but a bigger group of grammar nazis you will not find.

It can get very annoying when I make tiny little mistakes and they say things like "Thats all wrong". I once got very pissed off with a guy in work. I wrote a sentence in a chatroom, and he said "Thats completely wrong". It turned out I had forgottent o change an 'a' to a 'u'. I replied back that since we are on the subject of pedantry, the phrase "Thats completely wrong" would suggest that the entire sentence was wrong, when it is not, and therefore your sentence is incorrect also Or words along those lines. I was fuming at the time.

IvyTheTerrible · 04-05-2011 11:00AM

pickarooney wrote: »

By its very definition 'fluent' refers only to the ability to speak a language without hesitation and knowledge of a culture, history or any of the rest bears no relation to fluency. If it did, you wouldn't describe a three-year-old as fluent in his native language when he quite clearly is. As for being able to express yourself clearly, this varies so much from person to person within a linguistic subset that it's a vague enough notion at best. Many native speakers have a poor enough grasp of their own language and even poorer levels of self-expression. They would still be fluent, but not quite proficient, which is what you're describing.

I agree with this. I've been in France 2 years (arriving with Leaving Cert level french) and now I'm very comfortable speaking (even though I do make grammar mistakes) and I can have in-depth discussions on lots of subjects. However, I'm certainly not "culturally fluent", there are lots of famous people I don't know of etc etc. It's a complete different thing, in my opinion.

Apanachi · 04-05-2011 11:00AM

syklops wrote: »

Speaking of cultures, do Germans encourage you to speak well? I get the feeling they would friendly encourage you. I am not using it as an excuse for my limited czech, but a bigger group of grammar nazis you will not find.

I found they did encourage me (only after i insisted on speaking German though - at first they thought speaking to me would be a great chance to practise their English

)

They didn't correct every single little mistake, but definitely the larger ones and I have to say they did it in a non-condescending way, they were impressed that I made use of the basics I had and that I made the effort to learn the language

I envy you.

I think having a love of languages was a great help to me, some people are good at science, maths, sports etc... my strength was languages (and I was (am) terrible at physics and chemistry

)

prinz · 04-05-2011 11:01AM

pickarooney wrote: »

By its very definition 'fluent' refers only to the ability to speak a language without hesitation and knowledge of a culture, history or any of the rest bears no relation to fluency..

..and I don't think you can speak a language without hesitation, including a massive knowledge of vocabulary and using and recognising all the linguistic quirks I alluded to earlier, in six months plus an Irish secondary level education. Like I said you may be able to get by but personally I wouldn't describe it as being fluent. If you can bamboozle someone with one straightforward sentence then I wouldn't consider that person fluent.

Again I'd consider someone fluent at ILR Level 5, and I don't believe that is something that vast majority of people can pick up in six months, note ILR Level 5 also relates language to the culture.

Solair · 04-05-2011 11:05AM

pickarooney wrote: »

I could speak/write Dutch fluently after a year, but only after I got a job in a 100% Dutch-speaking environment. It can be really hard to get the practice when working with English-speaking locals.

No such problems in France. It's sink or swim and 6 months should be enough if you make the effort.

No such problems in Spain either. You've as much chance of being understood in most of Spain speaking English as you would speaking Spanish to a native of Athlone.

Even ordering a coffee can be difficult outside major urban centres. I remember a friend of mine ordering "Un Americano" and they were trying to figure out why he kept saying that he was American!

Un cappuccino got him pointed towards the nearest Capuchin Friary

ejmaztec · 04-05-2011 11:10AM

syklops wrote: »

I moved to the Czech Republic two years ago and really recommend it. Language wise, I know enough to get buy. I can ask for directions, order food, buy beer. I have a vocabulary of about 2000 words now, but I can't converse. It is a very difficult language as words change depending on the situation and gender.

For example, in the fourth case, an 'a' at the end of a word gets replaced with a 'u', unless it is a masculine inanimate object, then it does not change. To be grammatically correct, I need to draw out little diagrams. Plus I dont really know when to use the fourth case, so I just guess and get it right about 50% of the time.

That said I work for an American multinational so I dont need to for my job, and I hang out with a diverse group of people spanning Irish, Scottish, Macedonian and others, and we all speak english. Also I dont have a TV. If I did, I would watch a bit of Czech TV and pick up a bit more.

When I came over I learnt a few strategic phrases, and they helped me out a lot. Its also amazing how much you can converse with body language. Very often people ask me something, and by their body language I know what they are saying.

The first time that I visited Southern Bohemia, I'm ashamed to say that I did a chicken impersonation to get an egg sandwich at an hotel. None of them had a word of English, and all of them assumed that I was German, so we got nowhere for a while.:(

pickarooney · 04-05-2011 11:18AM

prinz wrote: »

..and I don't think you can speak a language without hesitation, including a massive knowledge of vocabulary and using and recognising all the linguistic quirks I alluded to earlier, in six months plus an Irish secondary level education. Like I said you may be able to get by but personally I wouldn't describe it as being fluent. If you can bamboozle someone with one straightforward sentence then I wouldn't consider that person fluent.

Again I'd consider someone fluent at ILR Level 5, and I don't believe that is something that vast majority of people can pick up in six months, note ILR Level 5 also relates language to the culture.

An awful lot depends on the individual but it's certainly possible.

Whispered · 04-05-2011 12:27PM

We're thinking of giving this a try too. Our main issue would be finding jobs. Considering I lost mine here over a year ago and have been working in a call centre since I would find it very hard to get work abroad without another language. (no other skills except for the 10 years experience I have which now counts for nothing

)

I think if we could get work in Germany I happily move and try learn the language by just living it.

syklops · 04-05-2011 12:36PM

Whispered wrote: »

We're thinking of giving this a try too. Our main issue would be finding jobs. Considering I lost mine here over a year ago and have been working in a call centre since I would find it very hard to get work abroad without another language. (no other skills except for the 10 years experience I have which now counts for nothing )

I think if we could get work in Germany I happily move and try learn the language by just living it.

I wouldn't say your experience counts for nothing, unless it is something that has gone completely the way of the dodo.

Also, dont assume you would only be able to get jobs where you need to speak german. Any multi-national, their policy will be to speak english during business times, and some even prefer to hire native speakers. There is a massive surge in IT at the moment, so if you in that area, you should find something easily enough.

TaraFoxglove · 04-05-2011 01:25PM

prinz wrote: »

If that's the criterion then there are middle aged men running our country who aren't fluent in English . So you are saying in less than six months you had the ability to discuss any topic in depth, an understanding of idioms/adages, wordplays, were able to recognise references to the classics of German literature, the etymology of German words and grammar for example? My respects. Nozzferrahhtoo said it best above, about tying the language into the history and culture of a people

How many fluent English-speakers know the etymology of English words?

prinz · 04-05-2011 01:47PM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

How many fluent English-speakers know the etymology of English words?

It's more a question of what people should know.

TaraFoxglove · 04-05-2011 01:49PM

prinz wrote: »

It's more a question of what people should know.

That didn't really answer my question.

The Agogo · 04-05-2011 01:50PM

I moved to Poland in January.

Most speak English and Polish isn't too difficult to learn. However, job-wise it is very difficult to find work other than teaching English.

Why not emigrate to England, Scotland or Wales?

Spanish is also very easy to learn, has good weather too!

pickarooney · 04-05-2011 01:58PM

Spain is not exactly plush with jobs though.

Emigration to Europe

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