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Simple question, what's the best striking art and why?

1235

Comments

  • #122
    Charlie3dan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    ScareGilly wrote: »
    Would a TKD practitioner of the same skill level as a MT practitioner beat him in a kickboxing match? The majority of the time, no.

    Sure, TKD has more variety, but surely that means they have to spend more time learning them and less time perfecting the most effective kicks, whereas it's quite the opposite in MT. Muay Thai wins imo..


    It's not a case of MT vs TKD it's who are the better kickers.
    How would TKD do in purely kicking match?

    Are the most effective kicks actually more effective or just easier to land?


  • #123
    Doug Cartel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    Are the most effective kicks actually more effective or just easier to land?
    Wouldn't the easier to land kick be more effective by definition?

    Powerful, easy to land, and doesn't leave you unreasonably open to other attacks. What am I missing?


  • #124
    Charlie3dan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Rephrase: Would the kick not yield the intended result if landed?
    When i say effective in this case I mean in terms of the effect on the opponent.

    If the easiest to land techniques are the most effective, should we practise nothing more than a front jab? (insert whatever is easiest for you to land as the technique).


  • #125
    HammerHeadGym
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    Having them and not using them is the same as not having them.
    Actually, it's not. And as I said earlier they are used in Muay Thai, just not as often as the more effective kicks. It's all about return on investment, and fancy, flashy kicks don't land as often and dont do as much damage as bread and butter stuff. In Muay Thai only techniques that damage are scored.
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    Is it the kicks that are ineffective or are they just harder to land? Would greater dexterity of the legs and feet make them easier to land or at least increase the percenatge they usually land?
    They don't land as often, and don't do as much damage as the basics. i.e. round kick and push kicks.
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    Could the same kicks be thrown with more power to make them more effective? Are unorthodox techniques sometimes useful because they are unexpected?
    I've yet to meet the fighter that doesn't throw 100% into every attack, a fighter in guard position is covered from most attacks by default, so no matter how weird the attack, he's probably going to get a guard to it anyway. Yes, unortodox attacks work occasionally and that is why you occassionally see them in Muay Thai. However they will generally leave a fighter open and vunerable, so you won't see them as often as solid basic attacks.
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    ...they can be used as a decoy/ setup, to help close distance, to get your opponent to change angle of position, drop their guard etc.
    If I know you are throwing ineffective kicks (which I will after your 2nd or 3rd, outside reaping crescent kick, none of this will work, because I will ignore poor technique and walk right onto you.
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    If the sole purpose of the kick was to end a fight you wouldn't see leg kicks.
    Actually, I will see fights stopped at least once a week from leg kicks. I also won my 5th fight on leg kicks.
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    ...a means to an end, as is sometimes the case with other kicks too.
    Yes, but it is only because of the damage they do that they are a means to an end. When I fight someone who doesn't throw devastating leg kicks, I ignore them, and they cease to be a means to an end. They become a liability.
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    No you don't understand. I've replied to this earlier in the thread. I said this emphasis on kicking would not be the same as TKD.
    No, you don't understand. Professional fighters who dedicate their life to a sport and/or an art, where the sole purpose is to use the most effective strikes possible in order not only to win fame and fortune, but in most cases to feed a family, will dedicate themselves to anything that works. Beleive me, if TKD kicks were better thats what they'd use. Why would they deliberately use inferior technique, given that any kick is allowed in the Muay Thai ring.
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    A MT fighter may not be willing to dedicate alot of time to this aspect of training because it may be at the expense of other aspects of training.
    Every fighter is an individual, and hence will have their own style. Many fighters focus on one aspect at the expense of others. Personally, I like a close fight, so I concentrate on short punches, elbows, knees and clinch at the expense of the long game. If there was a better way to kick at least some of the 50,000 pro fighters in Thailand would focus on it, and yet, none of them do.
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    TKD can execute a greater number of kicks and have greater use of the legs/ hips. Focusing so heavily on kicking, they will have a better chance of landing these kicks than someone who does not train the kicks to the same level.
    Yes, and if they were more effective or gave a fighter a better chance of winning they would be adapted into Muay Thai in a heartbeat. Much like western boxing was absorbed into the art in the late 70's and early 80's. Once the Thai's saw how effective punching could be, the guard position changed, because they became more afraid of punches than elbows. More emphasis was placed on setting up heavy cross hook combos that had largely been ignored until that point. This never happened with TKD. In fact, of the dozen or so TKD fighters I've seen come and go through the pro circuit in Thailand, with a few noteable exceptions, they have all had their ass handed to them by bread and butter techniques.
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    ... but the range of kicks tends to be more limited.
    Not sure what you mean here, range as in distance? Or range as in variety?
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    TKD practitioners could improve the power in their kicks with more focus on this in training
    I'm not sure how imprtant power is to a light contact sport is. This may be where some of the confusion is arising, as comparing the speed and execution of a kick that doesn't need to do damage to one that not only wont score points, but will build my opponents confidence is a bit like apples and oranges.
    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    So overall and technically for me, TKD = better kickers.
    You have yet to define 'technical'.
    Technical as in it looks nicer?
    Technical as in there are more of them?
    Technical as in they are more effective?
    Technical as in they do more damge?
    Technical as in ....?


  • #126
    Doug Cartel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    Rephrase: Would the kick not yield the intended result if landed?
    What kick, what are the intended results? Also depending on the kick the "if" in if it landed could be quite a big "if".
    If the easiest to land techniques are the most effective, should we practise nothing more than a front jab? (insert whatever is easiest for you to land as the technique).
    Everything should be as simple as possible, but not any simpler.


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  • #127
    HammerHeadGym
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    How would TKD do in purely kicking match?

    With that 'hands down by side' ready stance, I'd say Muay Thai. Any day of any week.


  • #128
    mugger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭mugger


    i think everyone can argue all day on this 1 but the post was about the best striking art,so forget about throws and locks,K1 is a good sport to look at for just stand up striking as nearlyI everyone can do all the stand up striking they want
    If you look at the k1 max were all the fighters are the same weight Buakaw por pramuk is the best fighter the sport has seen yet AND he is the best kicker no matter what way you want to look at it,power,speed timing etc and he is a THAIBOXER
    even if you forget about him look at all the best k1 guys they have all changed there style in some way for k1 but least of all the thaiboxers so that speaks for itself


  • #129
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    TKD can execute a greater number of kicks and have greater use of the legs/ hips. Focusing so heavily on kicking, they will have a better chance of landing these kicks than someone who does not train the kicks to the same level.

    By that logic, the Chloe Bruce girl that you linked is one of the most effective kickers on the planet.


  • #130
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 16,040 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    If the easiest to land techniques are the most effective, should we practise nothing more than a front jab? (insert whatever is easiest for you to land as the technique).

    No, but given a fixed amount of time to train, surely it is better to give a lot of time to a few of the most broadly applicable techniques, than a little time to a larger range of complex techniques some of which are only rarely applicable?

    e.g. Jumping spinning back kicks look brilliant, no denying it, but they're difficult to pull off and require a lot of training to master. For most people, put that time into a really good jab or hook, and you have a tool that can be used on many more occasions with a higher probability of success. Problem is, many novices see a flash technique and that's what they want to learn, whereas fewer simpler techniques would serve them better.

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  • #131
    Tim_Murphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Charlie3dan wrote: »
    How would TKD do in purely kicking match?
    Put a top level TKD person in against a decent but not exceptional thai boxer in a purely kicking match at it is only going to go a few ways.
    1) TKD guy gets KO'd badly or ends up on the floor from low kicks.
    2) Is the match is short itm might go to a decision, a TKD judge may think that the TKD won because he might have landed more tippy kicks but either way the TKD guy will go home feeling battered, the MT guy will go home wondering what the point of it all was.


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  • #132
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    I think your arguing this because your karate also has loads of crap techniques and you are sick that a more effective style can be learned easier than your chosen style or else you just don't have a clue

    either way apart from saying more is better you are making no sense at all, flogging a dead horse you might say, or maybe you are not explaining your point right.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #133
    Tim_Murphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Why don't you just come out and say what you really feel Paul? :D;)


  • #134
    Charlie3dan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Ok, too much there to reply to all individually.

    I don't agree that TKD kicks are completely useless.
    I concede that TKD don't necessarily train for devastating power because their competition is based on points.

    However, kicking is the main aspect of the art, their overall kicking ability is best. The training may need to be adapted to be used in an environment outside TKD but I think the level of dexterity TKD practitioners have would allow them to adapt their kicking, with training, if they wished.

    I prefaced my comment by saying "technically", becasue I realise looking at kicking only is impractical and also some of the TKD kicks are totally impractical. I know in reality MT has more practical kicking style. But I do think MT kicking is somewhat limited and if you are looking at kicking standard I think variety is part of it.

    Cowzerp, you get an individual response: I don't think any style is easier to learn. That sounds to me like the comment of someone who doesn't have a clue. I'm sure your experience and expertise would mean you don't really have that opinion but that you just didn't think too much about what you posted.
    We haven't discussed karate and I'm not really interested in your opinions on it for the point of this discussion.


  • #135
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Tim_Murphy wrote: »
    Why don't you just come out and say what you really feel Paul? :D;)

    :P, There's only so much debating you can do when it goes around in circles and only 1 point is clear!

    In saying that kratty is back as proved by silva and machida, or is it akido that's back, I'm :confused:

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #136
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Charlie3dan wrote: »

    Cowzerp, you get an individual response: I don't think any style is easier to learn. That sounds to me like the comment of someone who doesn't have a clue. I'm sure your experience and expertise would mean you don't really have that opinion but that you just didn't think too much about what you posted.
    We haven't discussed karate and I'm not really interested in your opinions on it for the point of this discussion.

    Is that why after 6 months boxing/MT you will be efficent to handle most fights but same can not be said for karate, after 10 years I've seen karate people who would not be safe in a 1 on 1 with anyone, unless they already happened to be tough like some people just are.

    Save your many techniques for kata competitions

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #137
    yomchi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    I can't believe this has turned into a style V style debate.

    Shame on all you experienced Boardsters who have already done this debate to infinite death.

    TKD V MT V KUNG FU V BJJ V HAPKIDO V JUDO V ETC ETC ETC = useless argument!


  • #138
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Thats what it's meant to be, read the title.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #139
    Kal_El
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭Kal_El


    yomchi wrote: »
    I can't believe this has turned into a style V style debate.

    Shame on all you experienced Boardsters who have already done this debate to infinite death.

    TKD V MT V KUNG FU V BJJ V HAPKIDO V JUDO V ETC ETC ETC = useless argument!


    I have an Idea! We could get practitioners of all these different Arts and match them off in a tournament format. In say a cage. And see who wins and so is the best! It could be called Ultimate martialarts cage fighters Championships.:D

    Oh wait i think something like this has been done before.

    Perhaps the fact that all human beings are unique and excel in different areas means that you will never know what is the best. If it works for you the its the best. For you.:)


  • #140
    Tim_Murphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    yomchi wrote: »
    I can't believe this has turned into a style V style debate.

    Shame on all you experienced Boardsters who have already done this debate to infinite death.

    TKD V MT V KUNG FU V BJJ V HAPKIDO V JUDO V ETC ETC ETC = useless argument!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU


  • #141
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    i have trained in MA for about 42 years now,62 years if you count judo,and i say everyone one is right and wrong,it does depend on your dedication and knowledge of your style,but one style that comes to mind is shotokan,its the only style that promotes, if you hit they will stay hit,its a power style,i was lucky to have trained with [early 60s] the likes of charles mac,kanazowa,and asana,very little dancing about,its all about your firm stance.now i am 70 years old and cannot run fast anymore its the perfect style.and i have dan grades in four other styles,


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  • #142
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    cowzerp wrote: »

    Save your many techniques for kata competitions

    Or knocking out poor oul randy couture lol :pac:


  • #143
    yomchi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Thats what it's meant to be, read the title.

    Sure, no harm discussing training methods. But when it boils down to this style V that style in the ring, X style would win.... yawn


  • #144
    cowzerp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    yomchi wrote: »
    Sure, no harm discussing training methods. But when it boils down to this style V that style in the ring, X style would win.... yawn

    Actually style v style used to be the most interesting posts on this forum, the only reason why it's Yawn is because people know what doies and does not work but many still wont accept it.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • #145
    yomchi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Actually style v style used to be the most interesting posts on this forum, the only reason why it's Yawn is because people know what doies and does not work but many still wont accept it.

    I agree, but they won't accept it either as it is purely opinion based for many, their opinion is wrapped up in psuedo-macho bullspit about who's system is tougher or more effective in a fight or who can hit harder.


  • #146
    Tim_Murphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    You know things have got weird when it's the TKD guy who is the voice of reason! :pac:


  • #147
    yomchi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    Tim_Murphy wrote: »
    You know things have got weird when it's the TKD guy who is the voice of reason! :pac:

    I'm not a TKD guy... I'm a martial artist ;)

    :p


  • #148
    OLDMAN1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 367 ✭✭OLDMAN1


    Im not getting into which is the best striking style, but one thing that im fairly sure about is that its one of the FULL CONTACT COMBAT SPORTS not semi contact


  • #149
    MMAIRELANDFAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭MMAIRELANDFAN


    OLDMAN1 wrote: »
    Im not getting into which is the best striking style, but one thing that im fairly sure about is that its one of the FULL CONTACT COMBAT SPORTS not semi contact


    Its kyokushin
    bare knuckle and the best leg kicks
    Muay Thai is like low class Kyokushin
    but i would put Muay thai high on the list 2nd maybe


  • #150
    Khannie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    MMAIRELANDFAN wrote: »
    Muay Thai is like low class Kyokushin

    Please refrain from referring to any art as low class. Thanks.


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  • #151
    mugger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 62 ✭✭mugger


    MMAIRELANDFAN you sound like you know what ur talking about,you are so right,i dont know how we only seen that now

    of corse they have the best leg kicks,and ied say muaythai would get 2nd if its lucky ied say more like 4th or 5th lol


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