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Simple question, what's the best striking art and why?

1246

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    So you've barely trained TKD or MT but your opinion is as valid as a Champion Black belt of the sport who has experience with Thai boxers etc and competes MMA where he can legally use all the techniques of Both, Don't mean to be rude but it justlooks silly at this stage.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    Tim is a high level TKD lad
    <- haha (sorry Tim)

    These threads can become tedious after time, but as the most 'high level' Taekwon-Do guy here :p and someone who has done some training in MT with Ray Lakes in Bridgestone I can safely say that MT kicking is trained very differently to TKD kicking. TKD kicking is far more superior in a TKD ring under TKD rules same applies to light contact kickboxing. MT kicking is far superior in a MT ring (which is a whole pile smaller and roped in) under MT rules.

    The MT lads do have much more conditioned legs to kicking. In TKD we kick with the instep and bottom of the shine which is padded, in MT they kick with the shins with no pads. I was offered to kick some of the bags in Bridgestone, the one's filled with plaster-paras and I politely declined.

    Who'd win in a death match? Depends if Mills Lane is refereeing :)

    The objective in MT kicking is to cut the opponent in half with destructive kicks. The objective in TKD is to score points albeit some knock outs are permissible.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Furious-Dave


    I don't, I think greater ability to kick equals better kicker.

    I've never trained TKD so I don't want to get too involved with this, but surely the better kicker is the person with the most effective kicks, not the wider variety?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    cowzerp wrote: »
    So you've barely trained TKD or MT but your opinion is as valid as a Champion Black belt of the sport who has experience with Thai boxers etc and competes MMA where he can legally use all the techniques of Both, Don't mean to be rude but it justlooks silly at this stage.

    His opinion is more qualified than mine, no question, but he hasn't said anything that would change my opinion.
    If somebody reads this and thinks "well charlie is full of sh1t because tim says so bla bla bla" I'm ok with that. I read this forum most days and disagree with alot of stuff and also I would respect certain people's opinions more than others. That's how these things work.

    However, Tim hasn't said anything that has changed my opinion.

    If anything, I think people can't see that I'm not talking about who's kicks work best in an MMA fight.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    yomchi wrote: »
    <- haha (sorry Tim)
    You take that back! :D

    As the saying goes, once a World Champion ALWAYS a World Champion! :D

    Again guys, I'm not knocking TKD. It is what it is. And in fairness, most of the good TKD guys I know are under no illusions as to its usefulness outside of the TKD environment.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Anyway, would Kyokushinkai Karate have better kicking than TKD! :D

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    I've never trained TKD so I don't want to get too involved with this, but surely the better kicker is the person with the most effective kicks, not the wider variety?

    Or is it the person with the widest variety of effective kicks?

    From what I've seen, MT most commonly has a roundhouse and a front kick.
    The round house: devastating.
    The front kick: most commonly used as a push.

    TKD has much more than that in terms of kicks.
    They aren't as easy as the roundhouse and front kick and they can be harder to land, so they get disregarded. But if trained properly they can be equally effective and ultimately if a person can do both the high percentage kicks and the low percentage kicks, they are the better kicker.

    They may heed to be trained differently to be more powerful, which I why I say "technically"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    Or is it the person with the widest variety of effective kicks?

    I don't think so. Otherwise those kicks would be used in Thai. Successful kicks (kicks that show an effect) score very highly in Thai.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Most Martial arts have more Punching techniques than Boxing, and they believe them to be effective too-so by that logic then Karate has better Technical Punching than Boxing.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Most Martial arts have more Punching techniques than Boxing, and they believe them to be effective too-so by that logic then Karate has better Technical Punching than Boxing.

    Nope, boxing is purely focused on punching and are the better punchers.
    TKD is very largely focused on kicking and has the better kickers.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    Form a purely logical view of things: Having a wider variety of kicks/punches is not necessarily the same as having a wider variety of effective kicks/punches.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Khannie wrote: »
    I don't think so. Otherwise those kicks would be used in Thai. Successful kicks (kicks that show an effect) score very highly in Thai.

    So the kicks used in Muay Thai are the only effective kicks?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    So the kicks used in Muay Thai are the only effective kicks?
    They are the ones - based on the evidence - that have shown to be the most consistent return on investment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,995 ✭✭✭Tim_Murphy


    Besed on my experience. if you don't feel my opinion is valid because I don't meet your criteria for being informed on the matter, feel free to disregard it.
    I could list off titles and experience etc as you have done below but it's not really necessary, as far as I'm concerned you're some internet dude who used to to TKD and now does MMA. I don't agree with alot of your opinions but I don't regard them as any more or less valid because you list your qualifications.
    I'm a person with an interest and experience in martial arts and a big fan of fight sport, expressing an opinion in a forum specifically designed for martial arts discussion.

    I'm not at all suggesting that your (or anyone elses) opinions should be disregarded. I just think it's a little funny that you seem to think you know more about the effectiveness of TKD than I do even though you've never done it whereas I did it for years and was pretty good at it back in the day. (Never mind what Jon says, he is just jealous! :pac:)
    You are talking about how practical the kicks are.
    The flashier kicks are not meant to be used as frequently because they are riskier. But I still feel someone who can execute the flashier kicks that 1 time in 50, as well as use the more basic kicks effectively, is a better kicker than a guy who does not have the capability to perform more difficult kicks
    Again that depends on what you mean by better I suppose. If better means being able to bust out cool moves that almost never work then ya sure. If it means 'more effective' then no.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Form a purely logical view of things: Having a wider variety of kicks/punches is not necessarily the same as having a wider variety of effective kicks/punches.

    Agreed.
    I'm talking about a wider varietey of effective kicks.

    I'm not saying anything flashy is effective for example Chloe Bruce is never going to hurt anyone with her party piece but I think TKD has kicks that can be very effective **, even though they are harder to land.

    But if someone can perform and land legs kicks, head kicks, round houses, back (turning) kicks, hook kicks (and even at that we're not looking at anything all that flashy) effectively then they're a better kicker than someone who only uses legs kicks and head kicks effectively.


    **more flashy than what I wanted but just to support the point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    I think TKD has kicks that can be very effective **, even though they are harder to land.
    That's great, but how often does something like that happen?

    I don't think anyone is arguing that a TKD kick can never work. The argument is that if you want to learn to beat someone with kicks, TKD is not the best way to go.

    EDIT: actually that's not my argument. How about this: if you want to beat somebody with kicks, MT's selection is sufficient and any extra aren't really worth the time learning.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    they're a better kicker than someone who only uses legs kicks and head kicks effectively.

    Most kicks in Thai are to the body (around floating rib height).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    Tim, Doug,

    I would think TKD is the best way to learn kicking. Training may have to be adapted in order to make the kicks more effective (that's not to say they aren't effective at all in the first palce though). While MT kicking is probably more effective I think it's limited.
    That's why I say TKD are technically better kickers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    “100 blades and none of them sharp!” …. Old Chinese saying.

    I think there is some truth in what everyone is saying here, and not necessarily contradictory truths.

    You got to hand it to MT, in the pro-ring its stripped down to do the job before it, but even with that, aren’t there a lot more guns in its arsenal that don’t appear in the ring? I really hate when people over simplify its range of techniques, I find it a great disservice to the complete art. It is a traditional art, and I stand to be corrected but doesn’t the traditional stuff have throws etc.? Making the distinction between say Burmese, Thai and Sanda blur significantly?

    That being said, am I correct in believing that high intensity bag work is core to an MT ring-fighters preparation? So for example you don’t see a lot of side kicks used by MT guys? Effective sidekicks and spinning sidekicks being used from further away than low roundhouses etc. (generally, and certainly when learning them) I guess to train side kicks would take away from the high intensity bag sessions? What I’m getting at here is that I don’t think that the premise if it’s not in MT it’s not relevant is an absolute position? Look at Cung Le’s use of them in Sanshou and MMA, or any mixed rules China V Thailand events. No they are not thrown in as frequently as the bread and butter low kicks, but they can often be show stoppers, I’ve seen many fights finished with side kicks to the abdomen or ribs, when used wisely, i.e. not too frequently. They are also a bitch to catch and throw, hence in sanshou straight push kicks (the easiest to catch) are rarely used and sidekicks more frequent.

    Now, that all still doesn’t excuse 570 degree spinning around the room kicks seen in some arts? Unless someone can tell me? why anyone would want to pull more than a simple spin kick? Beyond for grading purposes? I’m serious here, I’ve always wondered if there was some martial virtue I didn’t understand behind it?

    Re. using different parts of the feet, well Internal Kung Fu has 18 different hand shapes for attack, but from knowing a lot of the guys who can actually fight with this traditional kung Fu, they themselves limit such to about 3-5 they can pull off, fists and palms obviously, but not so many can apply say “Diamond Finger” technique, I only met one guy who could, and he did 3 X 2 minute handstands a day on his index fingers. That ability took him years to achieve, and of course he could do the standard zero-inch punch with it, so it could come from nowhere and the lead hand, that being said I don’t think a prime Iron Mike Tyson needed a “Diamond Finger” to do serious damage? So why bother? Well in the “Diamond Finger” case it’s extremely useful when employed to assist Jian and Dao (sword and sabre) applications. And there we come to it? See the question is only half complete, it should read “what’s the best striking art and why AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE?” Many train strikes with sabre and sword, is there any boxer out there happy to go in unarmed against a competent swords man?

    End of the day, I think every style has its well…. Style … that means uses, and accompanying strategy and tactics, and probably employs the tools necessary to allow it to gain advantage under those circumstances? This makes stuff seem to be sloppy to someone with another truth oblivious to the aim of a move. For example MMA and Sanda are often criticised for sloppy punching, judged on the back of many a strikers understanding - hit and get back in guard as quickly as possible, but the reason it often doesn’t come back to guard is to follow using it for a throw, you hit him and seize him, not hit him and start again! And certainly moving forward reaching for someone, means dropping an absolute guard and contains risk, hence it’s hidden with a strike / punch.
    Basically as many have said conditions, and that includes sport rules as much as slippery terrain influence what’s effective! A side kick might be as useful as a fridge to an Eskimo in a wet October day, but for defence, nothing is as simple, safe and satisfying as that same kick on a pleasant summer evening! Except maybe smashing him with your shins, taking his legs out from under him and watching him summersault involuntarily onto the pavement? Ah! Damn it!!! ;-)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    “100 blades and none of them sharp!” …. Old Chinese saying.
    I was wondering when somebody would chime in with that one.
    I really hate when people over simplify its range of techniques, I find it a great disservice to the complete art. It is a traditional art, and I stand to be corrected but doesn’t the traditional stuff have throws etc.?
    Even the ring style has a certain amount of "throwing". I forget what the exact rules are, but I think as long as you don't use your hip and you don't fall on your opponent it's good. The objective when you get into the clinch is to get your opponent into a position where you can knee the bejasus out of them, and you only use the throw if you've given up on that. At least that was what I was taught to do. Maybe one of the real MT people want to comment on this?
    Making the distinction between say Burmese, Thai and Sanda blur significantly?
    I think the main difference between Thai, Burmese, Khmer, etc boxing is that they all hate each other and claim the others are copying them. That and something about head-butts.
    That being said, am I correct in believing that high intensity bag work is core to an MT ring-fighters preparation? So for example you don’t see a lot of side kicks used by MT guys? Effective sidekicks and spinning sidekicks being used from further away than low roundhouses etc. (generally, and certainly when learning them) I guess to train side kicks would take away from the high intensity bag sessions?
    My experience was that trying to use side-kicks required me to adopt a stance that left me open to having my legs kicked out, limited my ability to box properly, and a failed side kick left me in a really bad position. Of course, maybe if I was better at side-kicks...

    Of course I was actually taught the side-kick, the spinning hook kick and a load of other ones in my MT class. You just don't get the chances to use them that you do in TKD style sparring.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭Barry.Oglesby


    GREAT SCOTT! WE HAVE TO GET YOU BACK TO 1998!
    future460.jpg

    Is this the Airport TKD forum?

    By the way there are a lot more kicks in Muay Thai than people give it credit for. I can think of 3 different types of teep and one Seagal invented too.

    This is nuts. We should all get together and spar sometime that would quickly add credence to this debate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    This is nuts. We should all get together and spar sometime that would quickly add credence to this debate.

    I've already baggsied the baseball bat
    Bambi wrote:
    baseball bat/hurley type striking would probably be best for the ould street fighting


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭Unpossible


    Would it be fair to say you need 3 things to become an effective striker?

    1. Proper technique (using hips/body/whatever)
    2. Ability to perform the strike under pressure (when someone else is trying not to be hit and is trying to hit you)
    3. To pull off a fast & powerful strike

    Essentially meaning that its no good being able to throw a fast and hard kick with perfect technique when all you are hitting is a punching bag, unless you can do it when fighting full contact.

    Or have I completely the wrong idea?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    This is nuts. We should all get together and spar sometime that would quickly add credence to this debate.

    Only if it's to the death


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Killme00


    yomchi wrote: »
    Only if it's to the death

    I can't spar to the death, i have work tomorrow


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,621 ✭✭✭yomchi


    Killme00 wrote: »
    I can't spar to the death, i have work tomorrow

    call in sick, no excuses


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    From what I've seen, MT most commonly has a roundhouse and a front kick.
    It also has a side kick,a spinning heel kick, a jumping turning kick (very much like the tornado kick you posted), a spinning back kick and an axe kick. The reason you dont see them much is because they are not as effective as the roundhouse to the ribs. That is based on the observation of literally hundreds of thoushands of fighters and coaches, over millions of hours of professional fighting.
    ...unless the only purpose of a kick is to generate maximum power?
    What exactly is the purpose of a kick, in your opinion?
    In my opinion, a kick should do as much damage as possible, for as little energy expended as possible, with the highest chance of successfully hitting. By those criteria, TKD comes a distant second to Muay Thai.
    The front kick: most commonly used as a push.
    Nonsense. Tell that to Vitor Belfort. The pushing effect is secondary to the liver and/or bladder damage.
    ...in order to use these kicks effectively, they'd have to spend way more time on practising them and developing their flexibility. They are not willing to do that so the alternative is to focus on a smaller number of kicks
    Let me see if I understand this. You are saying that a TKD guy who does, lets say 4 nights a week, at 2 hours a night (which is a lot by most peoples standards) has more time to develop kicks than a guy who lives at a gym and does two sessions a day of between 3 and four hours per session, 6 days a week? In fact lets say Mr. Kwon Do does 6 nights a week at 3 hours a night! He still does less than half that of the average Muay Thai figther.
    ...which I why I say "technically"
    Define 'technically', because from where Im standing you use that word to avoid explaining your nonsensical theories.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    ...I forget what the exact rules [for clinch throws] are...
    No hips, no hooking of the feet or tripping(legs can only be manipulated from the knee up), although if the foot is in motion it is counted as a sweep, rather than a trip. If you have your arms around his waist and lift an opponent off the ground, both your feet must be stationary (to avoid judo type throws). Also, falling on your opponent doesn't matter, but you would score less for it, although he may be penalised for it, if he made you fall by holding on to you. Hope this helps :D
    ...The objective when you get into the clinch is to get your opponent into a position where you can knee the bejasus out of them, and you only use the throw if you've given up on that.
    The objective in clinch is to execute as many quality knees as possible, but throws are very effective and can score big points (and knock the wind out of your attacker). Most effective, in terms of both points and damage is probably, clinch, 2 or 3 knees and a throw. At least in Thailand, I don't know if they place as much emphasis on it in Europe.
    I think the main difference between Thai, Burmese, Khmer, etc boxing is that they all hate each other and claim the others are copying them. That and something about head-butts.
    Not really. Long before there were internationally recognised borders, there were just a bunch of tanned folk who boxed the living **** out of each other. Different rules systems arose and developed, not exactly in isolation but almost and that is why the different styles are around today. There are monthly fights along the various borders using a sort of unified rules (like the gaelic/aussie football thing). Mostly with no gloves, although they wrap in hemp rope. The headbutting is almost exclusive to Muay Khmer and has to be agreed by both fighters in advance of the fight.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    It also has a side kick,a spinning heel kick, a jumping turning kick (very much like the tornado kick you posted), a spinning back kick and an axe kick. The reason you dont see them much is because they are not as effective as the roundhouse to the ribs. That is based on the observation of literally hundreds of thoushands of fighters and coaches, over millions of hours of professional fighting.
    .

    Having them and not using them is the same as not having them.
    Is it the kicks that are ineffective or are they just harder to land? Would greater dexterity of the legs and feet make them easier to land or at least increase the percenatge they usually land? Could the same kicks be thrown with more power to make them more effective?
    Are unorthodox techniques sometimes useful because they are unexpected?

    What exactly is the purpose of a kick, in your opinion?
    In my opinion, a kick should do as much damage as possible, for as little energy expended as possible, with the highest chance of successfully hitting. By those criteria, TKD comes a distant second to Muay Thai.
    .

    I asked was it the only purpose of a kick? Of course a kick should do damage but they can be used as a decoy/ setup, to help close distance, to get your opponent to change angle of position, drop their guard etc.
    If the sole purpose of the kick was to end a fight you wouldn't see leg kicks.
    Of course, with legs kicks the intention is still to do max damage and it has a high percentage chance of landing, but the fighter knows it's probably not going to end the fight when he throws it. Using a leg kick as a means to an end as is sometimes the case with other kicks too.
    Let me see if I understand this. You are saying that a TKD guy who does, lets say 4 nights a week, at 2 hours a night (which is a lot by most peoples standards) has more time to develop kicks than a guy who lives at a gym and does two sessions a day of between 3 and four hours per session, 6 days a week? In fact lets say Mr. Kwon Do does 6 nights a week at 3 hours a night! He still does less than half that of the average Muay Thai figther.
    .

    No you don't understand. I've replied to this earlier in the thread. I said this emphasis on kicking would not be the same as TKD. A MT fighter may not be willing to dedicate alot of time to this aspect of training because it may be at the expense of other aspects of training.
    Define 'technically', because from where Im standing you use that word to avoid explaining your nonsensical theories.

    Also responded to this earlier in the thread.
    TKD can execute a greater number of kicks and have greater use of the legs/ hips. Focusing so heavily on kicking, they will have a better chance of landing these kicks than someone who does not train the kicks to the same level.
    TKD training may not always be focused on power but this aspect could be added with greater focus on this aspect in training. (the same way MT could improve kicks with more focus on the kicking aspect in training)

    MT are more power focused when kicking but the range of kicks tends to be more limited. TKD practitioners could improve the power in their kicks with more focus on this in training . So overall and technically for me, TKD = better kickers.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 723 ✭✭✭ScareGilly


    Would a TKD practitioner of the same skill level as a MT practitioner beat him in a kickboxing match? The majority of the time, no.

    Sure, TKD has more variety, but surely that means they have to spend more time learning them and less time perfecting the most effective kicks, whereas it's quite the opposite in MT. Muay Thai wins imo..


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