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John Waters: "Dublin never quite seceded from the British empire"

  • 29-04-2011 02:40PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    I'm increasing wondering if John Waters believes what he writes or does he just go out of his way to be controversial.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0429/1224295672657.html?via=mr
    In a sense, Dublin never quite seceded from the British empire, but seems to gaze forlornly across the Irish Sea, writes JOHN WATERS
    WHENEVER THE events in Dublin of 95 years ago are raised, someone invariably tables a reminder that the Easter Rising had little or no support among the people of Dublin.
    And indeed, while there are accounts not in accord with this version, there was undoubtedly some vociferous opposition to the Rising, mainly from the wives of men fighting in the war against Germany, and therefore dependants of the British crown. In his 1995 book, The Easter Rebellion, Max Caulfield noted that, as the rebel prisoners were marched away under arrest, they were attacked by working-class women, who pelted them with rotten vegetables and emptied chamber pots over them.
    In his eyewitness account, The Insurrection in Dublin, James Stephens wrote: “Most of the female opinion I heard was not alone unfavourable, but actively and viciously hostile to the rising. This was noticeable among the best-dressed classes of our population; the worst dressed, indeed the female dregs of Dublin life, expressed a like antagonism, and almost in similar language. The view expressed was ‘I hope every man of them will be shot’.”
    Because of the odd cultural dynamics nowadays attending these discussions, such accounts are usually presented as reflecting badly on the rebels. There is another perspective: that they reflect badly on Dublin and her citizenry.
    The Dublin of the time was really just another provincial city of the British empire, bought in body, mind and spirit. It was in hardly any sense a capital city, but an outpost of British colonialism, more connected through governance, economics and culture to the “mainland” than to the country at its back, and unmoored from the Irish nation by virtue of its complicity in the continuing occupation of Irish hearts, minds and territory.
    With a deliberate, strategic obtuseness, our dominant conversations nowadays seek to depict the Rising as a failed attempt to take power in the capital. But in the minds of its key leaders this was simply the most literal and least potent dimension of their endeavour. The idea that there was a realistic chance of gaining power, especially following the non-arrival of promised troops and munitions from Germany, was about the last thing on anyone’s mind.
    The point was to reclaim Dublin for the Irish nation by a gesture that would resonate for generations, to redeem Dublin of the sins of its acquiescence in the subjugation of Ireland.
    In a letter to his mother on the eve of his execution, Pearse wrote: “We have preserved Ireland’s honour and our own. People will say hard things of us now, but we shall be remembered by posterity and blessed by unborn generations.”
    Pearse insisted the battle they were fighting was not merely against Britain/England, but was a struggle for “the national soul”, compromised and contaminated by centuries of interference and occupation. True independence, he wrote in The Spiritual Nation, “requires spiritual and intellectual independence as its basis, or it tends to become unstable, a thing resting merely on interests which change with time and circumstances”.
    This is a succinct description of what befell the business end of Ireland under British rule, and remains largely accurate of Ireland today.
    It is worth recalling that just two of the signatories of the Proclamation, Pearse and Joseph Mary Plunkett, had been born and raised in Dublin. Thomas MacDonagh was from Tipperary, Seán MacDiarmada from Leitrim, and Éamonn Ceannt from Ballymoe, on the border between Roscommon and Galway. The other two, James Connolly and Thomas Clarke, were born outside Ireland.
    It is pointless trying to arrive at a settled understanding of the Easter Rising in Irish culture unless we reflect deeply on these facts. Nowadays, we think of Dublin as entitled to speak for Ireland, as ruling over the State, albeit today in a certain quasi-democratic fashion. But Dublin is only a small part of Ireland, and by far the least representative part, an administrative capital that has hardly covered itself in glory by the quality of its administration.
    It is impossible to imagine that, if the capital was Galway or Westport, this country would bear any resemblance to its present condition, which is largely a reflection of Dublin’s confusing influence and control.
    Dublin may well be the “brain” of Ireland, but this entity is by no means coterminous with the Irish mind. Our Dublin-based, supposedly “national” media are not so much Dublin-centric as Anglo-centric, obsessed with exploring comparisons between Ireland and Britain and promoting British provincialism as the reality of Irish culture.
    Dublin never responded to the call of the Proclamation, believing itself to have too much to lose. The result, today, is a rather strange town, lacking any significant presence of an indigenous populace or self-generated culture, inhabited and run by people from outside itself, who seem never really to settle or belong but who existentially reject and are rejected by a city with a mind of its own.
    In a sense, Dublin never quite seceded from the British empire, but seems to gaze forlornly across the Irish Sea as though to a lost lover cast aside in a moment of petulance. In this sense the Easter Rising might reasonably be said to have failed to achieve its primary objective.

    tl;dr: Dubliners aren't really Irish at all, just a bunch of West Brits really.

    Most Dubliner's are just a generation or two removed from the country. Is it something in the Wicklow water that turns us into provincial Brits?


«1345

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Someone has to fill Kevin Myers boots at the times


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'm increasing wondering if John Waters believes what he writes or does he just go out of his way to be controversial.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0429/1224295672657.html?via=mr


    tl;dr: Dubliners aren't really Irish at all, just a bunch of West Brits really.

    Most Dubliner's are just a generation or two removed from the country. Is it something in the Wicklow water that turns us into provincial Brits?

    Youve been reading too much John Waters


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Ah he's probably still just bitter that his Eurovision songs either aren't picked or do sh*t in the competition.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,385 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    I'm not sure why hes using Westport as an example of an alternative capital :confused:

    I get sick of Dubs v Everyone else ****e on boards, we don't need real-life trolls like this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Do some of you not get offended when you hear people calling some of you west brits all the times. What do they mean by that?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Maybe he should f*ck off back to Roscommon if he doesnt like it here


  • Moderators Posts: 52,294 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,385 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Maybe he should f*ck off back to Roscommon if he doesnt like it here

    Castlerea has enough problems to deal with I can't imagine they'd take him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,916 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Castlerea has enough problems to deal with I can't imagine they'd take him.

    Thats true too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,164 ✭✭✭Ronan|Raven


    Roscommon doesn't want him!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Maybe he should f*ck off back to Roscommon if he doesnt like it here
    Sure he loves Dublin, ye see him shuffling round dun laoghaire looking like a king of the road.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    Sure he loves Dublin, ye see him shuffling round Kingston looking like a king of the road.
    fTP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 158 ✭✭Opelfruit


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'm increasing wondering if John Waters believes what he writes or does he just go out of his way to be controversial.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0429/1224295672657.html?via=mr


    tl;dr: Dubliners aren't really Irish at all, just a bunch of West Brits really.

    Most Dubliner's are just a generation or two removed from the country. Is it something in the Wicklow water that turns us into provincial Brits?

    TBH he's quite correct. Just read some of the threads on this forum. For a lot of Irish people Dublin is seen as a British colony. Dubliners are more like people from the north of England then like Irish people.

    You are also correct, a lot of Dubliners are " just a generation or two removed from the country", however there appears to be a rush to hide this fact. I know Dubliners whose parents are from the countryside yet they look down on "boggers", read any one of the "ashamed to be Irish" threads here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 420 ✭✭whiteboy


    I thought it was a well-written article and brought up some interesting points.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,870 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    Whats defines someone as a West Brit anyway?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭Dangerous Man


    I've amazed that tripe of this magnitude is allowed into print at the Irish Times. No, actually, I'm not. It's been going downhill for a long time. Now Waters is having a go at Dublin. Get out, go back to where you come from and leave your job behind while you're at it Waters you sanctimonious prick.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Its the attitude that if you don't wear an easter lily, you aren't a republican or Irish. Anyone else not like that if you are a republican?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Brendan Flowers


    What does tl;dr mean?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    What does tl;dr mean?
    Too long;didnt read.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Too long, didn't read


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,798 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    John waters... If your reading this I hope you know that I think you are a silly prick.

    As a dubliner I am a proud Irishman and I am most definitely not a west brit. As are most people I know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,870 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    I've amazed that tripe of this magnitude is allowed into print at the Irish Times. No, actually, I'm not. It's been going downhill for a long time. Now Waters is having a go at Dublin. Get out, go back to where you come from and leave your job behind while you're at it Waters you sanctimonious prick.

    Thats it, I am buying the London Times.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    efb wrote: »
    faP
    Fyp


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭Aldebaran


    Opelfruit wrote: »
    Dubliners are more like people from the north of England then like Irish people.

    Ummm, but Dubliners are Irish people, it follows then that they are very much like Irish people. Unless you're one of those people who have that weird diddly-eye, potato-eatin', church goin', GAA lovin' definition of an Irish person?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,267 ✭✭✭✭GavRedKing


    Are'nt all Dub's West Brits anyway nah? :p

    / Runs :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Its the attitude that if you don't wear an easter lily, you aren't a republican or Irish. Anyone else not like that if you are a republican?

    Keith I've been following your posts, do you follow the rugby at all? I do, it's great to see all provinces united without bickering from any corner. Make me proud to be from the Island of Ireland, you should be proud too, regardless of political sway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Keith I've been following your posts, do you follow the rugby at all? I do, it's great to see all provinces united without bickering from any corner. Make me proud to be from the Island of Ireland, you should be proud too, regardless of political sway.
    I like England but yeah, im proud to be on this island. Never said i was shamed of it. Just different political views to most people here. But thats ok. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭Dangerous Man


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    Whats defines someone as a West Brit anyway?

    Usually a bitter ignorant little turd with nothing better to do than have a go at Dublin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 158 ✭✭Opelfruit


    Aldebaran wrote: »
    Ummm, but Dubliners are Irish people, it follows then that they are very much like Irish people. Unless you're one of those people who have that weird diddly-eye, potato-eatin', church goin', GAA lovin' definition of an Irish person?

    Well there you go, you've proved the point. That's the exact kind of stereotype of Irishness I had to contend with when living in the UK. It's the same stereotype Dubliners have of Irish people, expcept instead of Paddy and Mick, Dubliners use Bogger and Culchie.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭Dangerous Man


    Opelfruit wrote: »
    Well there you go, you've proved the point. That's the exact kind of stereotype of Irishness I had to contend with when living in the UK. It's the same stereotype Dubliners have of Irish people, expcept instead of Paddy and Mick, Dubliners use Bogger and Culchie.


    You need to read the post you quoted again. You've misinterpreted it.


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