John Waters: "Dublin never quite seceded from the British empire"

dvpower

I'm increasing wondering if John Waters believes what he writes or does he just go out of his way to be controversial.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0429/1224295672657.html?via=mr

Irish Times wrote:

In a sense, Dublin never quite seceded from the British empire, but seems to gaze forlornly across the Irish Sea, writes JOHN WATERS
WHENEVER THE events in Dublin of 95 years ago are raised, someone invariably tables a reminder that the Easter Rising had little or no support among the people of Dublin.
And indeed, while there are accounts not in accord with this version, there was undoubtedly some vociferous opposition to the Rising, mainly from the wives of men fighting in the war against Germany, and therefore dependants of the British crown. In his 1995 book, The Easter Rebellion, Max Caulfield noted that, as the rebel prisoners were marched away under arrest, they were attacked by working-class women, who pelted them with rotten vegetables and emptied chamber pots over them.
In his eyewitness account, The Insurrection in Dublin, James Stephens wrote: “Most of the female opinion I heard was not alone unfavourable, but actively and viciously hostile to the rising. This was noticeable among the best-dressed classes of our population; the worst dressed, indeed the female dregs of Dublin life, expressed a like antagonism, and almost in similar language. The view expressed was ‘I hope every man of them will be shot’.”
Because of the odd cultural dynamics nowadays attending these discussions, such accounts are usually presented as reflecting badly on the rebels. There is another perspective: that they reflect badly on Dublin and her citizenry.
The Dublin of the time was really just another provincial city of the British empire, bought in body, mind and spirit. It was in hardly any sense a capital city, but an outpost of British colonialism, more connected through governance, economics and culture to the “mainland” than to the country at its back, and unmoored from the Irish nation by virtue of its complicity in the continuing occupation of Irish hearts, minds and territory.
With a deliberate, strategic obtuseness, our dominant conversations nowadays seek to depict the Rising as a failed attempt to take power in the capital. But in the minds of its key leaders this was simply the most literal and least potent dimension of their endeavour. The idea that there was a realistic chance of gaining power, especially following the non-arrival of promised troops and munitions from Germany, was about the last thing on anyone’s mind.
The point was to reclaim Dublin for the Irish nation by a gesture that would resonate for generations, to redeem Dublin of the sins of its acquiescence in the subjugation of Ireland.
In a letter to his mother on the eve of his execution, Pearse wrote: “We have preserved Ireland’s honour and our own. People will say hard things of us now, but we shall be remembered by posterity and blessed by unborn generations.”
Pearse insisted the battle they were fighting was not merely against Britain/England, but was a struggle for “the national soul”, compromised and contaminated by centuries of interference and occupation. True independence, he wrote in The Spiritual Nation, “requires spiritual and intellectual independence as its basis, or it tends to become unstable, a thing resting merely on interests which change with time and circumstances”.
This is a succinct description of what befell the business end of Ireland under British rule, and remains largely accurate of Ireland today.
It is worth recalling that just two of the signatories of the Proclamation, Pearse and Joseph Mary Plunkett, had been born and raised in Dublin. Thomas MacDonagh was from Tipperary, Seán MacDiarmada from Leitrim, and Éamonn Ceannt from Ballymoe, on the border between Roscommon and Galway. The other two, James Connolly and Thomas Clarke, were born outside Ireland.
It is pointless trying to arrive at a settled understanding of the Easter Rising in Irish culture unless we reflect deeply on these facts. Nowadays, we think of Dublin as entitled to speak for Ireland, as ruling over the State, albeit today in a certain quasi-democratic fashion. But Dublin is only a small part of Ireland, and by far the least representative part, an administrative capital that has hardly covered itself in glory by the quality of its administration.
It is impossible to imagine that, if the capital was Galway or Westport, this country would bear any resemblance to its present condition, which is largely a reflection of Dublin’s confusing influence and control.
Dublin may well be the “brain” of Ireland, but this entity is by no means coterminous with the Irish mind. Our Dublin-based, supposedly “national” media are not so much Dublin-centric as Anglo-centric, obsessed with exploring comparisons between Ireland and Britain and promoting British provincialism as the reality of Irish culture.
Dublin never responded to the call of the Proclamation, believing itself to have too much to lose. The result, today, is a rather strange town, lacking any significant presence of an indigenous populace or self-generated culture, inhabited and run by people from outside itself, who seem never really to settle or belong but who existentially reject and are rejected by a city with a mind of its own.
In a sense, Dublin never quite seceded from the British empire, but seems to gaze forlornly across the Irish Sea as though to a lost lover cast aside in a moment of petulance. In this sense the Easter Rising might reasonably be said to have failed to achieve its primary objective.

tl;dr: Dubliners aren't really Irish at all, just a bunch of West Brits really.

Most Dubliner's are just a generation or two removed from the country. Is it something in the Wicklow water that turns us into provincial Brits?

orourkeda

Someone has to fill Kevin Myers boots at the times

orourkeda

dvpower wrote: »

I'm increasing wondering if John Waters believes what he writes or does he just go out of his way to be controversial.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0429/1224295672657.html?via=mr


tl;dr: Dubliners aren't really Irish at all, just a bunch of West Brits really.

Most Dubliner's are just a generation or two removed from the country. Is it something in the Wicklow water that turns us into provincial Brits?

Youve been reading too much John Waters

AnonoBoy

Ah he's probably still just bitter that his Eurovision songs either aren't picked or do sh*t in the competition.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I'm not sure why hes using Westport as an example of an alternative capital

I get sick of Dubs v Everyone else ****e on boards, we don't need real-life trolls like this.

KeithAFC

Do some of you not get offended when you hear people calling some of you west brits all the times. What do they mean by that?

orourkeda

Maybe he should f*ck off back to Roscommon if he doesnt like it here

Delirium

Do you really care what this man says?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

orourkeda wrote: »

Maybe he should f*ck off back to Roscommon if he doesnt like it here

Castlerea has enough problems to deal with I can't imagine they'd take him.

orourkeda

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Castlerea has enough problems to deal with I can't imagine they'd take him.

Thats true too.

Ronan|Raven

Roscommon doesn't want him!

suicide_circus

orourkeda wrote: »

Maybe he should f*ck off back to Roscommon if he doesnt like it here

Sure he loves Dublin, ye see him shuffling round dun laoghaire looking like a king of the road.

efb

suicide_circus wrote: »

Sure he loves Dublin, ye see him shuffling round Kingston looking like a king of the road.

fTP

Opelfruit

dvpower wrote: »

I'm increasing wondering if John Waters believes what he writes or does he just go out of his way to be controversial.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0429/1224295672657.html?via=mr


tl;dr: Dubliners aren't really Irish at all, just a bunch of West Brits really.

Most Dubliner's are just a generation or two removed from the country. Is it something in the Wicklow water that turns us into provincial Brits?

TBH he's quite correct. Just read some of the threads on this forum. For a lot of Irish people Dublin is seen as a British colony. Dubliners are more like people from the north of England then like Irish people.

You are also correct, a lot of Dubliners are " just a generation or two removed from the country", however there appears to be a rush to hide this fact. I know Dubliners whose parents are from the countryside yet they look down on "boggers", read any one of the "ashamed to be Irish" threads here.

whiteboy

I thought it was a well-written article and brought up some interesting points.

Corsendonk

Whats defines someone as a West Brit anyway?

Dangerous Man

I've amazed that tripe of this magnitude is allowed into print at the Irish Times. No, actually, I'm not. It's been going downhill for a long time. Now Waters is having a go at Dublin. Get out, go back to where you come from and leave your job behind while you're at it Waters you sanctimonious prick.

KeithAFC

Its the attitude that if you don't wear an easter lily, you aren't a republican or Irish. Anyone else not like that if you are a republican?

Brendan Flowers

What does tl;dr mean?

pragmatic1

Brendan Flowers wrote: »

What does tl;dr mean?

Too long;didnt read.

mikemac

Too long, didn't read

DrumSteve

John waters... If your reading this I hope you know that I think you are a silly prick.

As a dubliner I am a proud Irishman and I am most definitely not a west brit. As are most people I know.

Corsendonk

Dangerous Man wrote: »

I've amazed that tripe of this magnitude is allowed into print at the Irish Times. No, actually, I'm not. It's been going downhill for a long time. Now Waters is having a go at Dublin. Get out, go back to where you come from and leave your job behind while you're at it Waters you sanctimonious prick.

Thats it, I am buying the London Times.

suicide_circus

efb wrote: »

faP

Fyp

Aldebaran

Opelfruit wrote: »

Dubliners are more like people from the north of England then like Irish people.

Ummm, but Dubliners are Irish people, it follows then that they are very much like Irish people. Unless you're one of those people who have that weird diddly-eye, potato-eatin', church goin', GAA lovin' definition of an Irish person?

GavRedKing

Are'nt all Dub's West Brits anyway nah?

/ Runs

TheZohanS

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its the attitude that if you don't wear an easter lily, you aren't a republican or Irish. Anyone else not like that if you are a republican?

Keith I've been following your posts, do you follow the rugby at all? I do, it's great to see all provinces united without bickering from any corner. Make me proud to be from the Island of Ireland, you should be proud too, regardless of political sway.

KeithAFC

TheZohan wrote: »

Keith I've been following your posts, do you follow the rugby at all? I do, it's great to see all provinces united without bickering from any corner. Make me proud to be from the Island of Ireland, you should be proud too, regardless of political sway.

I like England but yeah, im proud to be on this island. Never said i was shamed of it. Just different political views to most people here. But thats ok.

Dangerous Man

Corsendonk wrote: »

Whats defines someone as a West Brit anyway?

Usually a bitter ignorant little turd with nothing better to do than have a go at Dublin.

Opelfruit

Aldebaran wrote: »

Ummm, but Dubliners are Irish people, it follows then that they are very much like Irish people. Unless you're one of those people who have that weird diddly-eye, potato-eatin', church goin', GAA lovin' definition of an Irish person?

Well there you go, you've proved the point. That's the exact kind of stereotype of Irishness I had to contend with when living in the UK. It's the same stereotype Dubliners have of Irish people, expcept instead of Paddy and Mick, Dubliners use Bogger and Culchie.

Dangerous Man

Opelfruit wrote: »

Well there you go, you've proved the point. That's the exact kind of stereotype of Irishness I had to contend with when living in the UK. It's the same stereotype Dubliners have of Irish people, expcept instead of Paddy and Mick, Dubliners use Bogger and Culchie.

You need to read the post you quoted again. You've misinterpreted it.

Orando Broom

Opelfruit wrote: »

Well there you go, you've proved the point. That's the exact kind of stereotype of Irishness I had to contend with when living in the UK. It's the same stereotype Dubliners have of Irish people, expcept instead of Paddy and Mick, Dubliners use Bogger and Culchie.

Big time. Dubliners would see themselves as having more in common to Liverpool than Limerick.

reprazant

Opelfruit wrote: »

Well there you go, you've proved the point. That's the exact kind of stereotype of Irishness I had to contend with when living in the UK. It's the same stereotype Dubliners have of Irish people, expcept instead of Paddy and Mick, Dubliners use Bogger and Culchie.

Bollox. Dubliner's mock people from outside Dublin in the same way as people from outside Dublin mock Dubliner's. Its all tongue in cheek, unless you are an extremely sensitive soul who is unable to see the humour in things.

Walters seems to be saying that Dubliner's are not Irish enough to be considered properly Irish. His view of Irishness seems to be something similar to what oplefruit described.

smokedeels

dvpower wrote: »

tl;dr: Dubliners aren't really Irish at all, just a bunch of West Brits really.
?

tbf, I don't speak Irish, I'm not Catholic, I don't identify with any Irish political party and I am not involved in the community in any form. I don't like much of our indigenous music or literature (as in, I like others more)

I just happen to live in Ireland, nothing about me makes me "Irish” and I wouldn’t live anywhere in this country other than Dublin.

I didn't read the entire article because it's.... well, boring, but he's probably got a point...

Rhys Essien

KeithAFC wrote: »

I like England but yeah, im proud to be on this island. Never said i was shamed of it. Just different political views to most people here. But thats ok.

Which is it Keith,proud to be Irish or British.I suppose you have the best of both worlds.Have you got both passports?

super_furry

Kevin Myers must have phoned in sick.

tonycascarino

Opelfruit wrote: »

I know Dubliners whose parents are from the countryside yet they look down on "boggers"

Very true. It's strange carry on.

Aldebaran

Opelfruit wrote: »

Well there you go, you've proved the point. That's the exact kind of stereotype of Irishness I had to contend with when living in the UK. It's the same stereotype Dubliners have of Irish people, expcept instead of Paddy and Mick, Dubliners use Bogger and Culchie.

I don't see how I proved any point of yours?

My point was that you can't claim that Dubliners aren't 'like Irish people' when they very clearly are, unless you have some very narrow definition of what an Irish person is.

And don't you see how you too are guilty of stereotyping Dubliners in much the same way as you claim Dubliners stereotype country people?

dvpower

KeithAFC wrote: »

I like England but yeah, im proud to be on this island. Never said i was shamed of it. Just different political views to most people here. But thats ok.

Keith is the type of Irishman who whom the term 'West Brit' is a compliment.

Wibbs

super_furry wrote: »

Kevin Myers must have phoned in sick. the article

FYP

DrumSteve

Orando Broom wrote: »

Big time. Dubliners would see themselves as having more in common to Liverpool than Limerick.

And I suppose you have checked that with the lot of us, aye?

dvpower

Orando Broom wrote: »

Big time. Dubliners would see themselves as having more in common to Liverpool than Limerick.

In what ways?

optogirl

DrumSteve wrote: »

John waters... If your reading this I hope you know that I think you are a silly prick.

As a dubliner I am a proud Irishman and I am most definitely not a west brit. As are most people I know.

This attitude that Dubliners somehow go out of their way to be British and 'look down' on people from other counties is simply incorrect. Firstly we had no influence on how our city was used or influenced when part of the empire. We were born into a Republic and are as Irish as anybody else regardless of county.

Secondly, yes, there are ignorant pigs in Dublin who think they are superior to everybody else based on the county they were born in however this is true of every county. Dubs get tarnished with the old 'Ye think ye are better than us' boll*x time and again despite it not being true. My father (a Cavan man) once pointed out that anyone who actually believes this to be true simply has issues with their own identity & an inferiority complex which they can only vocalise by shouting loudly about how Dubs/Corkonians/Londoners 'think they're better than me'.

Krusader

I agree in part with what he wrote, we are becoming to anglo-centric, Galway would have been a better place to have the capital and when i become ruler of ireland i shall move it there

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Wibbs wrote: »

FYP

Nah, Kev opts for a 'Ireland is backward and most be closer to England' style of trolling.

reprazant

I love this. Cork mocks Kerry, Dublin, Waterford. Waterford mocks Kilkenny, Cork, Wexford. Kilkenny mocks Waterford, Cork, Tipp. All fine as its a bit of rivalry and all in good humour.

Dublin mocks anyone and they are West Brits who are ignorant, not really Irish and would be out waving the Union Jack if they could.

Hypocrisy at its best.

LondonIrish90

dvpower wrote: »

Keith is the type of Irishman who whom the term 'West Brit' is a compliment.

Why shouldn't he? Is it supposed to be offensive?

I must have missed the part where Irish people became different, better human beings to those from the island a short boat ride away.

optogirl

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Why shouldn't he? Is it supposed to be offensive?

I must have missed the part where Irish people became different, better human beings to those from the island a short boat ride away.

Not better but yes, different. You wouldn't like to be called Australian would ya?

Seanchai

DrumSteve wrote: »

John waters... If your reading this I hope you know that I think you are a silly prick.

As a dubliner I am a proud Irishman and I am most definitely not a west brit. As are most people I know.

Orando Broom wrote: »

Big time. Dubliners would see themselves as having more in common to Liverpool than Limerick.

Interestingly, I did a quick search of DrumSteve's posting history as I had my suspicions when I saw "proud Irishman" next to "Dubliner" used by somebody who posts in Afterhours and sure enough he's a regular poster on the British soccer fora (469 posts!), and seems to have a particular interest in the soccer team in the city of ... Liverpool.

John Waters is just being honest. There's a mass of vociferous people in Dublin who are obsessed with what goes on in Britain. They bore the pants off most of us, particular with their British soccer obsession. The world may be a very big place, but all these people do is follow events in that single country. If they followed Spanish, Italian or Brazilian soccer that would show some independence of mind. They don't. It's all anglocentric thinking coming out of that quarter of Dublin. Just look at the way the Dublin-based media is going on today about this British royal family. Depressing, myopic stuff. Cringe, cultural cringe.

Gunsfortoys

This is one of those ironic threads were Dubliners go up in arms about being called West Brits or "not Irish" yet in another thread they enjoy the spoils of the Royal Wedding.

Will wonders never cease.

optogirl

Seanchai wrote: »

Interestingly, I did a quick search of DrumSteve's posting history as I had my suspicions when I saw "proud Irishman" next to "Dubliner" used by somebody who posts in Afterhours and sure enough he's a regular poster on the British soccer fora (469 posts!), and seems to have a particular interest in the soccer team in the city of ... Liverpool.

John Waters is just being honest. There's a mass of vociferous people in Dublin who are obsessed with what goes on in Britain. They bore the pants off most of us, particular with their British soccer obsession. The world may be a very big place, but all these people do is follow events in that single country. If they followed Spanish, Italian or Brazilian soccer that would show some independence of mind. They don't. It's all anglocentric thinking coming out of that quarter of Dublin. Just look at the way the Dublin-based media is going on today about this British royal family. Depressing, myopic stuff. Cringe, cultural cringe.

Or maybe it's because people like soccer and growing up the most coverage and exposure they got was to English teams. You can enjoy sports from another country without being 'obsessed' with that nation. So what if somebody supports an English football team? I don't understand why people get their knickers in a twist over this.