Simple question, what's the best striking art and why?

Doug Cartel · 28-04-2011 05:41PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Not at all, the sparring they do is usually conducted with the practitioners dressed like Ninja Turtles. That and the spinning, roundhouse and flashy kicks are largely impractical in a street or MMA context. The hardest and most devastating kickers are found in Muay Thai.

Hmmm. I did TKD, and I never dressed up like a Ninja Turtle, and I didn't wear anything more ridiculous than somebody in a judo or BJJ class would wear. I did, however, have to pretty much forget everything I knew about kicking when I switched to MT and I couldn't see myself switching back.

Not necessarily, I wouldn't say that you could call someone like Manny Pacquiao a "bad striker" in general, similarly many in MMA don't put any meaningful basis on kicks e.g. Fedor or BJ Penn.

I think a good example is the introduction of the X kicks per round rule in kickboxing. When KB first started off, some people were winning using just punches, maybe the rare kick. More isn't always better.

Barry.Oglesby · 28-04-2011 06:32PM

Every now and again, this forum parties like it's Nineteen Ninety Nine.

I dig it.

Doug Cartel · 28-04-2011 08:09PM

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Every now and again, this forum parties like it's Nineteen Ninety Nine.

I dig it.

So, do you think these kinds of threads have changed much since then? (Genuine question.)

OLDMAN1 · 28-04-2011 09:27PM

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

No. No it wouldn't. As earlier UFC demonstrated, Most karate forms, Kung fu, Tae kwon do, got bashed and never came back. Same for K-1.

I'm not saying their not valid for self defence type scenarios, but they could never be considered among the best striking arts.
Unless you have a link, showcasing correctly trained kung fu, I'm going to remain unmoveable on this one.

this is Bao li boa vs the thai champion in a international competition between China and Thailand, he comes from a Shuai Jiao/Sanda background and since this video is learning bjj because he fights in mma now, 11-0 i think,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c75rK4Vvsb4&feature=related

forget about the silk suit stuff

Barry.Oglesby · 28-04-2011 09:30PM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

So, do you think these kinds of threads have changed much since then? (Genuine question.)

There's about 2 more guys saying "what's in a name?" but that's it. Everyone thinks their "art" or system is better. The Fanboys still shout Muay Thai and Boxing without having ever studied Thai or Boxing and make broad assumptions about that.

Let me tell you something interesting. The more I got into the "art" of Muay Thai, the more it resembled traditional Taekwondo, particularly in the defensive aspects. A lot of stuff I picked up in Thai made me go "whoa, I threw that out years ago". The big difference is the training, not the "art". In TKD we learned geansaí loads of technique. When I started Thai I learned a few things, and just repeated those for 2/3 years, did a load of sparring, padwork, bagwork... you see where this is going I'm sure. So when it came time to actually scoop a kick (there was an identical block in TKD) I could do it in live sparring rather than just in some pattern. I've heard Muay Thai guys say this before but you'd be surprised how "traditional" Muay Thai is, and I don't use that in a derogatory sense there at all.

Now let me state for the record I've never competed in Muay Thai despite my mate's prodding to make me, and it's unlikely I ever will, so take my example above with a pinch of salt.

Hail 2 Da Thief · 29-04-2011 12:20AM

_oveless wrote: »

looking a video of kyokoshin you cant say with any kind of honesty that georges st pierre fights anything like that, I think his karate background is a myth or at least greatly exaggerated.

GSP demonstrates his karate skills at UFC 129 media workout in Toronto.

216323_10150169969339479_6176684478_6621246_6183849_n.jpg

black dragon · 29-04-2011 12:31AM

Kickboxing V Thaiboxing under K-1 Rules in the Menlo Park Hotel, Galway on May 7th.
Won't prove who's better but should be an entertaining nights fighting.

garrybergin · 29-04-2011 10:01AM

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

I didn't know Andy Ryan did striking, even so he could throw, get mount and then strike away...

Well lets put it this way - i have trained with him, sparred with him and to be quite honest I would not like to be on the wrong side of a right cross . To say that he does not do striking is ridiculous ! He trains a very successful MMA team who are all excellent strikers, prime example is Neil Seery !!:rolleyes:

Charlie3dan · 29-04-2011 10:30AM

FTA69 wrote: »

Not at all, the sparring they do is usually conducted with the practitioners dressed like Ninja Turtles. That and the spinning, roundhouse and flashy kicks are largely impractical in a street or MMA context. The hardest and most devastating kickers are found in Muay Thai. .

Muay Thai have a more power focused kicking style but technically not the best kickers IMO. TKD practitioners will use snapping, thrusting, hooking and following through the target when they kick where as MT generally have the same approach to every kick. A TKD practitioner could easily adapt to MT kicking but the same is not true for MT adapting to TKD.
Also the front kick in MT is most often used as a push rather than a kick so when you look at it their range of kicks is quite limited.

Incidentally, TKD kicks are not ineffective, they just require more training to do and pull off. It's much easier to just dismiss them as ineffective than it is to train them to be effective.

FTA69 wrote: »

Not necessarily, I wouldn't say that you could call someone like Manny Pacquiao a "bad striker" in general, similarly many in MMA don't put any meaningful basis on kicks e.g. Fedor or BJ Penn.
.

Well for me, part of the reason we use the word "Striker" is to distinguish these skillset from that of a boxer. We're looking at overall ability to strike with whatever part of the body. So I wouldn't consider boxers to be good strikers, although as I said in my first post, I would consider them the best punchers

FTA69 wrote: »

I'd nearly agree with that, although boxing is undoubtedly a good base as well. .

Yea boxing would be a good base but I consider MT a better base because of the overall striking ability.

FTA69 wrote: »

Not at all, I'm not putting sh*t on any martial arts but unless you're doing hard, complete and full-contact sparring on a regular basis then it's largely redundant. There is no way you could say the punching taught in Karate rivals that of boxing, or its kicks that of Muay Thai. .

No what I said is that those arts have more complete striking systems. Greater variety of all types of strikes involved. I'm not talking about how they are trained at all. Although, I would agree unless you train the techniques properly they are redundant.
I don't think the punching style of karate would rival a boxers but I would certainly say the kicking style would rival that of MT.

FTA69 wrote: »

Effective my ass. Great for fitness or flexibility I'd imagine; not going to cut the mustard in a scrap.

Capoeira itself as a striking style is far too limited. But if you have a solid striking base already you could also adapt some of their techniques and they can be effective.
Of course, you would have to actually train them to be effective and it would require more training than learning your basic roundhouse maybe. But that doesn't make the technique ineffective, only the person attempting it.

cowzerp · 29-04-2011 10:41AM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Muay Thai have a more power focused kicking style but technically not the best kickers IMO. TKD practitioners will use snapping, thrusting, hooking and following through the target when they kick where as MT generally have the same approach to every kick. A TKD practitioner could easily adapt to MT kicking but the same is not true for MT adapting to TKD.
Also the front kick in MT is most often used as a push rather than a kick so when you look at it their range of kicks is quite limited.

Incidentally, TKD kicks are not ineffective, they just require more training to do and pull off. It's much easier to just dismiss them as ineffective than it is to train them to be effective.

Well for me, part of the reason we use the word "Striker" is to distinguish these skillset from that of a boxer. We're looking at overall ability to strike with whatever part of the body. So I wouldn't consider boxers to be good strikers, although as I said in my first post, I would consider them the best punchers

Yea boxing would be a good base but I consider MT a better base because of the overall striking ability.

More does not necessarily mean better, Boxers are the best at the most effective striking tool, plus have the best head movement, footwork etc, and when learning basic thai kicks can use them to great effect due to there footwork and timing been very good.

TKD kicking might have many ways, but most are innefective in a fight, unless its a tkd fight, so like my explanation of Boxing having less to work on same can be said for thai, they focus more on themore effective fighting kicks and are better for it, i do agree TKD practitioners learn the slight changes easily though..

Doug Cartel · 29-04-2011 10:43AM

Charlie, why is having a greater variety of strikes better than keeping things simple?

EDIT: Looks like I was too slow.

Tim_Murphy · 29-04-2011 10:50AM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Muay Thai have a more power focused kicking style but technically not the best kickers IMO. TKD practitioners will use snapping, thrusting, hooking and following through the target when they kick where as MT generally have the same approach to every kick. A TKD practitioner could easily adapt to MT kicking but the same is not true for MT adapting to TKD.
Also the front kick in MT is most often used as a push rather than a kick so when you look at it their range of kicks is quite limited.

Incidentally, TKD kicks are not ineffective, they just require more training to do and pull off. It's much easier to just dismiss them as ineffective than it is to train them to be effective.

What do you mean by 'technically' better? If you mean fancier then yes they are, if you mean more effective then you they are not.
Have you actually trained TKD or MT? If not what are you basing these opinions on?

I trained TKD kicks for a long time. Left as a 3rd Dan, would probably be a 4th pushing for a 5th at this stage if I'd kept doing it. Can TKD kicks be effective? Yes, but for the most part they won't work that well unless the guys you are against is doing TKD as well.

Charlie3dan wrote: »

I don't think the punching style of karate would rival a boxers but I would certainly say the kicking style would rival that of MT.

There's been a fair few karate guys train with us and I've yet to see a single one (bar the FC variety that I won't event attenpt to spell) who didn't struggle against guys with basic MMA standup. It's been flicky kicks, an inability to check low kicks and chin in the air for the most part. Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh but it is the truth of it I'm afraid.

Damo W · 29-04-2011 11:37AM

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

There's been a fair few karate guys train with us and I've yet to see a single one (bar the FC variety that I won't event attenpt to spell) who didn't struggle against guys with basic MMA standup. It's been flicky kicks, an inability to check low kicks and chin in the air for the most part. Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh but it is the truth of it I'm afraid.

As a Karate instructor I don't think that is harsh, but all 'styles' are not equal as you have pointed out.

Some place great emphasis on shoulders down, head up etc for a variety of their own reasons.... some being technical, some being form over function.

Specific rule bound competition can reinforce this. e.g. no low kicks so no need to defend against them. Thus checking leg kicks not part of training.

Also IMHO there is an over emphasis on punching from hip as the primary 'punching' technique(s).

Charlie3dan · 29-04-2011 11:50AM

Not saying more is better all round, I'm saying TKD practitioners are technically better kickers.
Muay Thai has powerful kicks largely due to how they are trained and I think TKD would definitely benefit from training their kicking in a simular way.
BUT, MT kicking is limited. Power roundhouses all the time and almost always with the shin. TKD guys can use their hips and legs muscles more effectively, they can strike with the shin, the heel, the instep, the ball of the foot. They can use thrusting, hooking, etc etc.

You can't be a good golfer if you have no short game. You can't be a good kicker if your kicking is limited. You can have powerful legs kicks....but so can everyone else.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

What do you mean by 'technically' better? If you mean fancier then yes they are, if you mean more effective then you they are not.
Have you actually trained TKD or MT? If not what are you basing these opinions on? .

For the first bit see above. I haven't trained in TKD and I've only done a few classes of MT and few MMA classes. I currently train in karate and to lesser extent Bjj.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I trained TKD kicks for a long time. Left as a 3rd Dan, would probably be a 4th pushing for a 5th at this stage if I'd kept doing it. Can TKD kicks be effective? Yes, but for the most part they won't work that well unless the guys you are against is doing TKD as well. .

Can they be effective? Yes. The are more risky to execute and more difficult to become adept at....that doesn't make the kicks less effective, that makes the person who can't use them less effective.

Doug Cartel · 29-04-2011 12:17PM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Muay Thai has powerful kicks largely due to how they are trained and I think TKD would definitely benefit from training their kicking in a simular way.
[...]
TKD guys can use their hips and legs muscles more effectively

These two statements contradict each other.

[TKD guys] can strike with the shin, the heel, the instep, the ball of the foot. They can use thrusting, hooking, etc etc.

MT guys could do this - there's nothing in the rules that forbid it - but they choose not to. Why is this?

Charlie3dan · 29-04-2011 12:28PM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

These two statements contradict each other.

Not necessarily, unless the only purpose of a kick is to generate maximum power?

Doug Cartel wrote: »

MT guys could do this - there's nothing in the rules that forbid it - but they choose not to. Why is this?

Because in order to use these kicks effectively, they'd have to spend way more time on practising them and developing their flexibility.
They are not willing to do that so the alternative is to focus on a smaller number of kicks. I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm just saying it means they aren't as good kickers.

MT may have all the kicks they feel they NEED. They will be able to kick effectively to some extent in MMA and probably self defence. But in a pure striking match, they could benefit from some additional kicking ability.

And that's what we're discussing......striking.

Doug Cartel · 29-04-2011 12:52PM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Because in order to use these kicks effectively, they'd have to spend way more time on practising them and developing their flexibility.
They are not willing to do that so the alternative is to focus on a smaller number of kicks. I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm just saying it means they aren't as good kickers.

So we're basically talking about guys who have been training since they are slightly older than toddlers, treated more like race horses than human beings and who's only goal is to win so that they can send money home, and you feel that the reason they don't use a bunch of weird kicks is because they're too lazy to put in the training to make them work?

MT may have all the kicks they feel they NEED.

The evidence would suggest that they are probably right.

They will be able to kick effectively to some extent in MMA and probably self defence. But in a pure striking match, they could benefit from some additional kicking ability.

And that's what we're discussing......striking.

MT champ vs TKD champ in a striking competition and my money is on the MT guy.

Khannie · 29-04-2011 12:53PM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Muay Thai have a more power focused kicking style but technically not the best kickers IMO.

How so? Kicking in Thai is generally focused on only two things: Doing damage and defence. Anything that doesn't do damage or help with defence has been weeded out as ineffective in the thousands and thousands of hours of ring time that Muay Thai sees every year in Thailand and around the world. Surely that's as technical as you can get?

Charlie3dan · 29-04-2011 01:14PM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

So we're basically talking about guys who have been training since they are slightly older than toddlers, treated more like race horses than human beings and who's only goal is to win so that they can send money home, and you feel that the reason they don't use a bunch of weird kicks is because they're too lazy to put in the training to make them work? .

No I'm saying they aren't willing to train this way at the expense of training other aspects. it's not their focus.

I certainly didn't imply they are lazy. You seem to think I have a problem with MT or something? I don't I'm just saying the best technical kickers come from TKd IMO.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

The evidence would suggest that they are probably right.
.

Maybe they do have all they NEED but they've left vast room for improvement in technical kicking.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

MT champ vs TKD champ in a striking competition and my money is on the MT guy.

Are they restricted to only kicking? Because I'm not saying that TKD are better fighters I'm saying they're better kickers. I feel like I've said that enough times in this thread.

Charlie3dan · 29-04-2011 01:15PM

Khannie wrote: »

How so? Kicking in Thai is generally focused on only two things: Doing damage and defence. Anything that doesn't do damage or help with defence has been weeded out as ineffective in the thousands and thousands of hours of ring time that Muay Thai sees every year in Thailand and around the world. Surely that's as technical as you can get?

See previous page

Doug Cartel · 29-04-2011 01:36PM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

I certainly didn't imply they are lazy. You seem to think I have a problem with MT or something?

No I don't think you have a problem with MT. I think you have formed an opinion without regard for evidence, you are being vague about what that opinion is, and you are shifting the goalposts in response to any counter opinion.

I don't I'm just saying the best technical kickers come from TKd IMO.

We still haven's really nailed down what you mean by this. It really sounds to me like you are saying that TKD kicks are technical, TKD people are the best at doing TKD kicks therefore TKD has the best technical kickers.

Maybe they do have all they NEED but they've left vast room for improvement in technical kicking.

I'm sure there are many premiership footballers who have a lot of room for improving their round-the-worlds and other keepy-uppy techniques, but that won't make them better footballers.

Are they restricted to only kicking? Because I'm not saying that TKD are better fighters I'm saying they're better kickers. I feel like I've said that enough times in this thread.

Sorry, but if I'm comparing boxing to kick-boxing I would expect that comparison to be in a kick-boxing match. Same thing goes here.

Tim_Murphy · 29-04-2011 01:55PM

Damo wrote:

As a Karate instructor I don't think that is harsh, but all 'styles' are not equal as you have pointed out.

Some place great emphasis on shoulders down, head up etc for a variety of their own reasons.... some being technical, some being form over function.

Specific rule bound competition can reinforce this. e.g. no low kicks so no need to defend against them. Thus checking leg kicks not part of training.

Also IMHO there is an over emphasis on punching from hip as the primary 'punching' technique(s).

Exacly. I’m not knocking Karate for Karate’s sake. If it works for karate competition then great, go for it. It just doesn’t translate well to a non-Karate settings, much the same as TKD.

Charlie,

For the first bit see above. I haven't trained in TKD and I've only done a few classes of MT and few MMA classes. I currently train in karate and to lesser extent Bjj.

OK so what exactly are you basing all these opinions on?

Not saying more is better all round, I'm saying TKD practitioners are technically better kickers.

Again, what exactly do you mean by technically better? If you mean flashier then yes they are, but that’s not the same thing.

Can they be effective? Yes. The are more risky to execute and more difficult to become adept at....that doesn't make the kicks less effective, that makes the person who can't use them less effective.

I’ve trained with numerous ITF and WKA world champions, Padraig O Connor, Mark Philpott, Dave Keane, the list goes on & on. I have a gold medal from the WKA World Championships myself. I think it is fair to say I’ve competed against and trained with a lot of high level TKDists. These kicks are for the most part not effective outside of a TKD setting. This is something I have first hand experience of. In a non-TKD setting could one of these guys throw a spinning heel kick, connect and knock a guy out? Of course. Is it likely to happen? No, not at all. Most of the time they guy will just end up having the legs kicked off him. Maybe one time in 50 it might land, I don’t know. That is not effective technique.

Charlie3dan · 29-04-2011 02:12PM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

No I don't think you have a problem with MT. I think you have formed an opinion without regard for evidence, you are being vague about what that opinion is, and you are shifting the goalposts in response to any counter opinion..

I think your getting the impression that I think TKD is superior to MT. I don't. I think TKD has better kicks technically.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

We still haven's really nailed down what you mean by this. It really sounds to me like you are saying that TKD kicks are technical, TKD people are the best at doing TKD kicks therefore TKD has the best technical kickers.
..

I'm saying if I wanted to learn to kick well and I had a choice of arts, I'd go for TKD.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I'm sure there are many premiership footballers who have a lot of room for improving their round-the-worlds and other keepy-uppy techniques, but that won't make them better footballers.

Agreed but if we we're talking about who had the best round the wolrds and keepy uppies then we'd say the guys that practise those.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Sorry, but if I'm comparing boxing to kick-boxing I would expect that comparison to be in a kick-boxing match. Same thing goes here.

Ok but if I'm comparing the kicks of one style to the kicks of another I'd expect it to be tested in a kicking match.

OLDMAN1 · 29-04-2011 02:13PM

garrybergin wrote: »

Well lets put it this way - i have trained with him, sparred with him and to be quite honest I would not like to be on the wrong side of a right cross . To say that he does not do striking is ridiculous ! He trains a very successful MMA team who are all excellent strikers, prime example is Neil Seery !!:rolleyes:

you should reread my post, i never said that Andy Ryan does not do striking, what i said was that i didn't know he did striking, i have never met Andy, i knew he was a bb in judo and bjj.for all i knew he had a mt guy teaching striking, i dont think its ridiculous to say i don't know something, there are lots of things i dont know...

Doug Cartel · 29-04-2011 02:15PM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

I think your getting the impression that I think TKD is superior to MT. I don't. I think TKD has better kicks technically.

No, the impression I get is that you think more complicated is better.

Charlie3dan wrote: »

I'm saying if I wanted to learn to kick well and I had a choice of arts, I'd go for TKD.

Why not XMA, performance wushu or tricking?

cowzerp · 29-04-2011 02:17PM

This is about whats the best striking art, in a fight Muay thai kicks would butcher you, 3-4 in the leg and an average martial artist are gone!

Tkd is impressive but the kicking is more style over substance, Tim is a high level TKD lad and has fought MMA v Boxers, Kickboxers, Thai Boxers etc and you don't think he's biased now do ya?

I think your basing nice looking over effective in fairness.

OLDMAN1 · 29-04-2011 02:18PM

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Ok but if I'm comparing the kicks of one style to the kicks of another I'd expect it to be tested in a kicking match.

A pure kicking match, i think mt would win..

Charlie3dan · 29-04-2011 02:26PM

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

OK so what exactly are you basing all these opinions on? .

Besed on my experience. if you don't feel my opinion is valid because I don't meet your criteria for being informed on the matter, feel free to disregard it.
I could list off titles and experience etc as you have done below but it's not really necessary, as far as I'm concerned you're some internet dude who used to to TKD and now does MMA. I don't agree with alot of your opinions but I don't regard them as any more or less valid because you list your qualifications.
I'm a person with an interest and experience in martial arts and a big fan of fight sport, expressing an opinion in a forum specifically designed for martial arts discussion.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Again, what exactly do you mean by technically better? If you mean flashier then yes they are, but that’s not the same thing.

I’ve trained with numerous ITF and WKA world champions, Padraig O Connor, Mark Philpott, Dave Keane, the list goes on & on. I have a gold medal from the WKA World Championships myself. I think it is fair to say I’ve competed against and trained with a lot of high level TKDists. These kicks are for the most part not effective outside of a TKD setting. This is something I have first hand experience of. In a non-TKD setting could one of these guys throw a spinning heel kick, connect and knock a guy out? Of course. Is it likely to happen? No, not at all. Most of the time they guy will just end up having the legs kicked off him. Maybe one time in 50 it might land, I don’t know. That is not effective technique.

You are talking about how practical the kicks are.
The flashier kicks are not meant to be used as frequently because they are riskier. But I still feel someone who can execute the flashier kicks that 1 time in 50, as well as use the more basic kicks effectively, is a better kicker than a guy who does not have the capability to perform more difficult kicks.

Charlie3dan · 29-04-2011 02:29PM

Doug Cartel wrote: »

No, the impression I get is that you think more complicated is better.

I don't, I think greater ability to kick equals better kicker.

[/QUOTE]Why not XMA, performance wushu or tricking? [/QUOTE]
because I don't feel their training would result in better kicks as quickly as TKD

Charlie3dan · 29-04-2011 02:31PM

cowzerp wrote: »

This is about whats the best striking art,

Yes but I didn't say TKD was the best striking art.

I said:

Best kicks (technically): TKD

Simple question, what's the best striking art and why?

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