So, someone I know had shingles, went to a witch for treatment, and got better

Amtmann · 27-04-2011 01:51PM #1

As it says on the tin.

Symptoms of shingles manifested, the doctor could not treat it satisfactorily (for some obscure reason the details of which I'm not privy to), and this person - a teenage girl - was taken by her parents to a woman in rural Tipperary for treatment. While this woman doesn't label herself a witch or a witchdoctor, the description of her approach to treatment speaks volumes.

The witch sprinkled water on the afflicted area and asked the girl "what is the cure for fire?", to which the girl responded "water". This went on for a few moments until finally the witch informed the girl that her shingles would be gone within seven days. And indeed, they actually were.

So now I'm having to endure daily superstitious nonsense from the involved parties about how this witch has "genuine power".

As I'm not a scientist, can anyone suggest a rational explanation so that I can hit said parties with it?

Larsist · 27-04-2011 01:54PM

here: Shingles generally only last 3 to 5 weeks.

Hookah · 27-04-2011 01:54PM

Hypnosis type placebo effect hybrid healing thingy.

opinion guy · 27-04-2011 01:56PM

Unless you are immuno-suppressed shingles generally resolves by itself

27-04-2011 01:57PM

I had a headache once and then I ate a cheese sandwich and my headache went away

:eek::eek::eek:

You should tell them that story, maybe they'll listen

Amtmann · 27-04-2011 02:10PM

I suppose my question more generally is what does one say to counter the verisimilitude of faith healing?

It seems to me to be the same issue as when someone goes to get their cards read or fortune told, and lo and behold, the fortune teller appears to know very specific details about the person. This really catches on among people, and they'll brook no contradiction when you challenge them about it. "It works! You can't explain it! Feck off with your science!".

robindch · 27-04-2011 02:12PM

I'd have said that three to five weeks was rather long and that it can clear itself up much faster than that. Telling her that it'll take "seven days" to sort itself out is simply relying on the natural course of the disease to resolve it.

You could try pointing out this, but no doubt you'll get the usual "Ah, but we sprinkled water on it, then it got better" -- as good an instance of the post-hoc-propter-hoc fallacy as one could hope for. You could suggest that she was also in Tipperary, so that might have helped as much as the water.

You could also try pointing out that people only go to witchdoctors when conventional medicine hasn't worked, so it'll typically be when people are (a) emotionally vulnerable and (b) when the disease has progressed more (ie, when it's closer to finishing up naturally).

Finally, you could try asking around if anybody's got a hangover or headache, then sprinkling water on them, while incanting whatever, then claiming the glory when the hangover/headache goes away. Charging them fifty euro might help too.

liamw · 27-04-2011 02:44PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I had a headache once and then I ate a cheese sandwich and my headache went away

:eek::eek::eek:

You should tell them that story, maybe they'll listen

Didn't work at first, but I persevered. Two hours and 57 cheese sandwiches later my headache went away.

Use your powers wisely bluewolf.

Dades · 27-04-2011 02:48PM

Tremelo wrote: »

I suppose my question more generally is what does one say to counter the verisimilitude of faith healing?

Get in the sack.

ShooterSF · 27-04-2011 02:52PM

Anytime someone mentions this kind of story to me I use the simpsons' "bear tax defense".

I pick up the nearest inanimate object and claim it keeps tigers away; arguing that the lack of tigers clearly proves my point.

The Mad Hatter · 27-04-2011 02:53PM

liamw wrote: »

Didn't work at first, but I persevered. Two hours and 57 cheese sandwiches later my headache went away.

Use your powers wisely bluewolf.

Now, what to do about the stomach-ache...

liamw · 27-04-2011 03:02PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Now, what to do about the stomach-ache...

Ham sandwiches? i'm not very good at this black magic stuff

Zillah · 27-04-2011 03:09PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

Anytime someone mentions this kind of story to me I use the simpsons' "bear tax defense".

I pick up the nearest inanimate object and claim it keeps tigers away; arguing that the lack of tigers clearly proves my point.

My favourite is to say "Lisa, I want to buy your rock!" whenever someone is trying to convince me about whatever voodoo they're into this week.

They usually don't get it

kylith · 27-04-2011 05:35PM

robindch wrote: »

I'd have said that three to five weeks was rather long and that it can clear itself up much faster than that. Telling her that it'll take "seven days" to sort itself out is simply relying on the natural course of the disease to resolve it.

You could try pointing out this, but no doubt you'll get the usual "Ah, but we sprinkled water on it, then it got better" -- as good an instance of the post-hoc-propter-hoc fallacy as one could hope for. You could suggest that she was also in Tipperary, so that might have helped as much as the water.

You could also try pointing out that people only go to witchdoctors when conventional medicine hasn't worked, so it'll typically be when people are (a) emotionally vulnerable and (b) when the disease has progressed more (ie, when it's closer to finishing up naturally).

Finally, you could try asking around if anybody's got a hangover or headache, then sprinkling water on them, while incanting whatever, then claiming the glory when the hangover/headache goes away. Charging them fifty euro might help too.

This. One thousand times, this.

krudler · 27-04-2011 06:06PM

"dad by that logic the rock keeps tigers away"
"how do you mean honey?"
"well do you see any tigers around here?"
"....Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock"
"but dad....ok"

Newaglish · 27-04-2011 07:24PM

If magic actually worked, she would be able to make the shingles go away instantly. Why the seven day wait?!

The Mad Hatter · 27-04-2011 07:47PM

Newaglish wrote: »

If magic actually worked, she would be able to make the shingles go away instantly. Why the seven day wait?!

Slow magic?

Newaglish · 27-04-2011 10:55PM

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Slow magic?

Perhaps it runs on the brainpower of those participating in the rite?

shocxxxxxx · 27-04-2011 11:02PM

Probaby the same woman i went to when i had shingles..im from rural tipperary..i cant imagine theres too many around...

anyway i was only 12 at the time so i dont remember much but my mother said she was a "quack"...as apposed to a witch..

I had tried every lotion and potion there was...my back was raw by the time we had heard of this woman..:|

she pierced her finger with a needle and rubbed her blood on my shingles and whaddya know......gone COMPLETELY in two days..like i never had them...:O

She didnt charge us anything either...she just wants to pass on her "cure"...that her father gave her....strange or what...

robindch · 27-04-2011 11:19PM

shocxxxxxx wrote: »

she pierced her finger with a needle and rubbed her blood on my shingles

She what?!!?

Firstly, she could infect herself with the varicella zoster virus, though I presume she's done that already done that by now.

Secondly, if the blisters have broken open and she rubs her blood into you, then I'd imagine you could catch just about any of the thousands of blood-borne diseases that she might be carrying. Blood to blood is the most efficient way of transmitting diseases and if her standards of hygiene are that appallingly low, then I'd say it's almost certain that she's carrying at least a few.

She should be reported to the health authorities, if not the police too, for doing that :mad:

Einhard · 27-04-2011 11:35PM

I think there's more to "faith healing" than merely the natural resolution of ailments and the like, but I'd attribute it to the remarkable attributes of the human body, and specifically the mind, rather than any spiritual quackery. When I was younger, I was plagued with warts on my fingers. These weren't just dotted here and there, but built up on top of each other in horrible warty mountains. Obviously I was a big hit with the ladies! Anyway, nothing worked on them. Eventually my mother brought me to a 7th daugther of a 7th son of a etc etc, and she waved a cross over me, said a few words, and within a few days the warts were gone. It clearly wasn't just a natural progression. I was quite young at the time, so of course I attributed to some special "powers" on behalf of the "healer", but now, the only conclusion I can come up with is that I believed so much that my warts would go, that they did go. I know the placebo effect has come in for criticism recently, but I readily believe that it can be efficacious in some instances.

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere of a study that showed that patients who knew that others were praying for them were quicked on average to recover, and less likely to suffer side effects or secondary infections. It's miraculous alright, but in the scientific sense, not the relgious one.

Dave! · 27-04-2011 11:45PM

Einhard wrote: »

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere of a study that showed that patients who knew that others were praying for them were quicked on average to recover, and less likely to suffer side effects or secondary infections. It's miraculous alright, but in the scientific sense, not the relgious one.

Pretty sure that study showed the opposite actually! The patients who knew that they were being prayed for had slightly more complications than the rest, probably because they were thinking "oh sh*t I must be in trouble if people have to pray for me!"

Think it was patients with heart troubles.

opinion guy · 27-04-2011 11:53PM

Einhard wrote: »

I think there's more to "faith healing" than merely the natural resolution of ailments and the like, but I'd attribute it to the remarkable attributes of the human body, and specifically the mind, rather than any spiritual quackery. When I was younger, I was plagued with warts on my fingers. These weren't just dotted here and there, but built up on top of each other in horrible warty mountains. Obviously I was a big hit with the ladies! Anyway, nothing worked on them. Eventually my mother brought me to a 7th daugther of a 7th son of a etc etc, and she waved a cross over me, said a few words, and within a few days the warts were gone. It clearly wasn't just a natural progression. I was quite young at the time, so of course I attributed to some special "powers" on behalf of the "healer", but now, the only conclusion I can come up with is that I believed so much that my warts would go, that they did go. I know the placebo effect has come in for criticism recently, but I readily believe that it can be efficacious in some instances.

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere of a study that showed that patients who knew that others were praying for them were quicked on average to recover, and less likely to suffer side effects or secondary infections. It's miraculous alright, but in the scientific sense, not the relgious one.

I know that the idea of the placebo effect has come in for some criticism recently, but I think it

Research into the placebo effect has shown that faith in your healer leads to better outcomes - be that a doctor, a witch, a quack or whomever else. The critical factor is that you believe strongly that what the person is doing will cure you. It actually doesn't matter that much what they do - only that you believe and that there is some element of ritual - be that a GP's history, examination and prescription or be that a shamens dance or whatever.

But this of course is only within the confines of what placebo can achieve. It is interesting though. Proves that patient manner is actually critically important for outcomes.

kylith · 27-04-2011 11:59PM

Einhard wrote: »

I think there's more to "faith healing" than merely the natural resolution of ailments and the like, but I'd attribute it to the remarkable attributes of the human body, and specifically the mind, rather than any spiritual quackery. When I was younger, I was plagued with warts on my fingers. These weren't just dotted here and there, but built up on top of each other in horrible warty mountains. Obviously I was a big hit with the ladies! Anyway, nothing worked on them. Eventually my mother brought me to a 7th daugther of a 7th son of a etc etc, and she waved a cross over me, said a few words, and within a few days the warts were gone. It clearly wasn't just a natural progression. I was quite young at the time, so of course I attributed to some special "powers" on behalf of the "healer", but now, the only conclusion I can come up with is that I believed so much that my warts would go, that they did go. I know the placebo effect has come in for criticism recently, but I readily believe that it can be efficacious in some instances.

You know I have a remarkably similar story. When I was young I had many warts on my hands, more than a dozen at one count and I did absolutely nothing and they just went away of their own accord. It was spooky, so it was.

Faith healers work on a mixture of the placebo effect and the power of suggesion. No faith healer has ever had a confirmed cure of anything, ever. As with all such Woo if they had the implications would be world changing, so you'd wonder why they'd keep quiet about it.

Einhard · 28-04-2011 12:40AM

kylith wrote: »

Faith healers work on a mixture of the placebo effect and the power of suggesion.

I know. That's what my post was about. But they do work at times, albeit not for the reasons they'd claim.

Oh, and that story wasn't very similar at all!:p

Einhard · 28-04-2011 12:45AM

Dave! wrote: »

Pretty sure that study showed the opposite actually! The patients who knew that they were being prayed for had slightly more complications than the rest, probably because they were thinking "oh sh*t I must be in trouble if people have to pray for me!"

Think it was patients with heart troubles.

You're right. Damn my memory! Someone pray for me quick!!:D

strobe · 28-04-2011 01:42AM

shocxxxxxx wrote: »

Probaby the same woman i went to when i had shingles..im from rural tipperary..i cant imagine theres too many around...

anyway i was only 12 at the time so i dont remember much but my mother said she was a "quack"...as apposed to a witch..

I had tried every lotion and potion there was...my back was raw by the time we had heard of this woman..:|

she pierced her finger with a needle and rubbed her blood on my shingles and whaddya know......gone COMPLETELY in two days..like i never had them...:O

She didnt charge us anything either...she just wants to pass on her "cure"...that her father gave her....strange or what...

robindch wrote: »

She what?!!?

Firstly, she could infect herself with the varicella zoster virus, though I presume she's done that already done that by now.

Secondly, if the blisters have broken open and she rubs her blood into you, then I'd imagine you could catch just about any of the thousands of blood-borne diseases that she might be carrying. Blood to blood is the most efficient way of transmitting diseases and if her standards of hygiene are that appallingly low, then I'd say it's almost certain that she's carrying at least a few.

She should be reported to the health authorities, if not the police too, for doing that :mad:

I actually know of a women (now deceased) that did this as well. Apparently she had something in her blood that cured shingles up in about two days flat. I know of 7 cases as my mother put people in contact with her, all the exact same results, 100% success rate and always in the same time frame irrespective of the length of time the person had had the disease. She never claimed a magic ability or anything, she was a nurse for 40 years, but there seems to have been something to it. Agreed on the infection issues though. Although she used to take her blood by syringe and give it to people in milton treated baby bottles so any infection would be one way.

babyface11 · 28-04-2011 01:51AM

bluewolf wrote: »

I had a headache once and then I ate a cheese sandwich and my headache went away

:eek::eek::eek:

You should tell them that story, maybe they'll listen

god dont you know anything that theres powers greater than you and i with healing potential and you should learn to respect people who have it!!!

Sarky · 28-04-2011 02:10AM

A cheese sandwich filled the gaping cheese sandwich-shaped void in my life this afternoon. Eternal glory to the cheese sandwich!

The Mad Hatter · 28-04-2011 02:28AM

babyface11 wrote: »

god dont you know anything that theres powers greater than you and i with healing potential and you should learn to respect people who have it!!!

opinion guy · 28-04-2011 02:32AM

Sarky wrote: »

A cheese sandwich filled the gaping cheese sandwich-shaped void in my life this afternoon. Eternal glory to the cheese sandwich!

Don't forget the inanimate carbon rod !!

All hail the inanimate carbon rod!!

So, someone I know had shingles, went to a witch for treatment, and got better

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