So, someone I know had shingles, went to a witch for treatment, and got better

Amtmann

As it says on the tin.

Symptoms of shingles manifested, the doctor could not treat it satisfactorily (for some obscure reason the details of which I'm not privy to), and this person - a teenage girl - was taken by her parents to a woman in rural Tipperary for treatment. While this woman doesn't label herself a witch or a witchdoctor, the description of her approach to treatment speaks volumes.

The witch sprinkled water on the afflicted area and asked the girl "what is the cure for fire?", to which the girl responded "water". This went on for a few moments until finally the witch informed the girl that her shingles would be gone within seven days. And indeed, they actually were.

So now I'm having to endure daily superstitious nonsense from the involved parties about how this witch has "genuine power".

As I'm not a scientist, can anyone suggest a rational explanation so that I can hit said parties with it?

Larsist

here: Shingles generally only last 3 to 5 weeks.

Hookah

Hypnosis type placebo effect hybrid healing thingy.

opinion guy

Unless you are immuno-suppressed shingles generally resolves by itself

I had a headache once and then I ate a cheese sandwich and my headache went away

:eek::eek::eek:

You should tell them that story, maybe they'll listen

Amtmann

I suppose my question more generally is what does one say to counter the verisimilitude of faith healing?

It seems to me to be the same issue as when someone goes to get their cards read or fortune told, and lo and behold, the fortune teller appears to know very specific details about the person. This really catches on among people, and they'll brook no contradiction when you challenge them about it. "It works! You can't explain it! Feck off with your science!".

robindch

I'd have said that three to five weeks was rather long and that it can clear itself up much faster than that. Telling her that it'll take "seven days" to sort itself out is simply relying on the natural course of the disease to resolve it.

You could try pointing out this, but no doubt you'll get the usual "Ah, but we sprinkled water on it, then it got better" -- as good an instance of the post-hoc-propter-hoc fallacy as one could hope for. You could suggest that she was also in Tipperary, so that might have helped as much as the water.

You could also try pointing out that people only go to witchdoctors when conventional medicine hasn't worked, so it'll typically be when people are (a) emotionally vulnerable and (b) when the disease has progressed more (ie, when it's closer to finishing up naturally).

Finally, you could try asking around if anybody's got a hangover or headache, then sprinkling water on them, while incanting whatever, then claiming the glory when the hangover/headache goes away. Charging them fifty euro might help too.

liamw

bluewolf wrote: »

I had a headache once and then I ate a cheese sandwich and my headache went away

:eek::eek::eek:

You should tell them that story, maybe they'll listen

Didn't work at first, but I persevered. Two hours and 57 cheese sandwiches later my headache went away.

Use your powers wisely bluewolf.

Dades

Tremelo wrote: »

I suppose my question more generally is what does one say to counter the verisimilitude of faith healing?

Get in the sack.

ShooterSF

Anytime someone mentions this kind of story to me I use the simpsons' "bear tax defense".

I pick up the nearest inanimate object and claim it keeps tigers away; arguing that the lack of tigers clearly proves my point.

The Mad Hatter

liamw wrote: »

Didn't work at first, but I persevered. Two hours and 57 cheese sandwiches later my headache went away.

Use your powers wisely bluewolf.

Now, what to do about the stomach-ache...

liamw

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Now, what to do about the stomach-ache...

Ham sandwiches? i'm not very good at this black magic stuff

Zillah

ShooterSF wrote: »

Anytime someone mentions this kind of story to me I use the simpsons' "bear tax defense".

I pick up the nearest inanimate object and claim it keeps tigers away; arguing that the lack of tigers clearly proves my point.

My favourite is to say "Lisa, I want to buy your rock!" whenever someone is trying to convince me about whatever voodoo they're into this week.

They usually don't get it

kylith

robindch wrote: »

I'd have said that three to five weeks was rather long and that it can clear itself up much faster than that. Telling her that it'll take "seven days" to sort itself out is simply relying on the natural course of the disease to resolve it.

You could try pointing out this, but no doubt you'll get the usual "Ah, but we sprinkled water on it, then it got better" -- as good an instance of the post-hoc-propter-hoc fallacy as one could hope for. You could suggest that she was also in Tipperary, so that might have helped as much as the water.

You could also try pointing out that people only go to witchdoctors when conventional medicine hasn't worked, so it'll typically be when people are (a) emotionally vulnerable and (b) when the disease has progressed more (ie, when it's closer to finishing up naturally).

Finally, you could try asking around if anybody's got a hangover or headache, then sprinkling water on them, while incanting whatever, then claiming the glory when the hangover/headache goes away. Charging them fifty euro might help too.

This. One thousand times, this.

krudler

"dad by that logic the rock keeps tigers away"
"how do you mean honey?"
"well do you see any tigers around here?"
"....Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock"
"but dad....ok"

Newaglish

If magic actually worked, she would be able to make the shingles go away instantly. Why the seven day wait?!

The Mad Hatter

Newaglish wrote: »

If magic actually worked, she would be able to make the shingles go away instantly. Why the seven day wait?!

Slow magic?

Newaglish

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Slow magic?

Perhaps it runs on the brainpower of those participating in the rite?

shocxxxxxx

Probaby the same woman i went to when i had shingles..im from rural tipperary..i cant imagine theres too many around...

anyway i was only 12 at the time so i dont remember much but my mother said she was a "quack"...as apposed to a witch..

I had tried every lotion and potion there was...my back was raw by the time we had heard of this woman..:|

she pierced her finger with a needle and rubbed her blood on my shingles and whaddya know......gone COMPLETELY in two days..like i never had them...:O

She didnt charge us anything either...she just wants to pass on her "cure"...that her father gave her....strange or what...

robindch

shocxxxxxx wrote: »

she pierced her finger with a needle and rubbed her blood on my shingles

She what?!!?

Firstly, she could infect herself with the varicella zoster virus, though I presume she's done that already done that by now.

Secondly, if the blisters have broken open and she rubs her blood into you, then I'd imagine you could catch just about any of the thousands of blood-borne diseases that she might be carrying. Blood to blood is the most efficient way of transmitting diseases and if her standards of hygiene are that appallingly low, then I'd say it's almost certain that she's carrying at least a few.

She should be reported to the health authorities, if not the police too, for doing that :mad:

Einhard

I think there's more to "faith healing" than merely the natural resolution of ailments and the like, but I'd attribute it to the remarkable attributes of the human body, and specifically the mind, rather than any spiritual quackery. When I was younger, I was plagued with warts on my fingers. These weren't just dotted here and there, but built up on top of each other in horrible warty mountains. Obviously I was a big hit with the ladies! Anyway, nothing worked on them. Eventually my mother brought me to a 7th daugther of a 7th son of a etc etc, and she waved a cross over me, said a few words, and within a few days the warts were gone. It clearly wasn't just a natural progression. I was quite young at the time, so of course I attributed to some special "powers" on behalf of the "healer", but now, the only conclusion I can come up with is that I believed so much that my warts would go, that they did go. I know the placebo effect has come in for criticism recently, but I readily believe that it can be efficacious in some instances.

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere of a study that showed that patients who knew that others were praying for them were quicked on average to recover, and less likely to suffer side effects or secondary infections. It's miraculous alright, but in the scientific sense, not the relgious one.

Dave!

Einhard wrote: »

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere of a study that showed that patients who knew that others were praying for them were quicked on average to recover, and less likely to suffer side effects or secondary infections. It's miraculous alright, but in the scientific sense, not the relgious one.

Pretty sure that study showed the opposite actually! The patients who knew that they were being prayed for had slightly more complications than the rest, probably because they were thinking "oh sh*t I must be in trouble if people have to pray for me!"

Think it was patients with heart troubles.

opinion guy

Einhard wrote: »

I think there's more to "faith healing" than merely the natural resolution of ailments and the like, but I'd attribute it to the remarkable attributes of the human body, and specifically the mind, rather than any spiritual quackery. When I was younger, I was plagued with warts on my fingers. These weren't just dotted here and there, but built up on top of each other in horrible warty mountains. Obviously I was a big hit with the ladies! Anyway, nothing worked on them. Eventually my mother brought me to a 7th daugther of a 7th son of a etc etc, and she waved a cross over me, said a few words, and within a few days the warts were gone. It clearly wasn't just a natural progression. I was quite young at the time, so of course I attributed to some special "powers" on behalf of the "healer", but now, the only conclusion I can come up with is that I believed so much that my warts would go, that they did go. I know the placebo effect has come in for criticism recently, but I readily believe that it can be efficacious in some instances.

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere of a study that showed that patients who knew that others were praying for them were quicked on average to recover, and less likely to suffer side effects or secondary infections. It's miraculous alright, but in the scientific sense, not the relgious one.


I know that the idea of the placebo effect has come in for some criticism recently, but I think it

Research into the placebo effect has shown that faith in your healer leads to better outcomes - be that a doctor, a witch, a quack or whomever else. The critical factor is that you believe strongly that what the person is doing will cure you. It actually doesn't matter that much what they do - only that you believe and that there is some element of ritual - be that a GP's history, examination and prescription or be that a shamens dance or whatever.

But this of course is only within the confines of what placebo can achieve. It is interesting though. Proves that patient manner is actually critically important for outcomes.

kylith

Einhard wrote: »

I think there's more to "faith healing" than merely the natural resolution of ailments and the like, but I'd attribute it to the remarkable attributes of the human body, and specifically the mind, rather than any spiritual quackery. When I was younger, I was plagued with warts on my fingers. These weren't just dotted here and there, but built up on top of each other in horrible warty mountains. Obviously I was a big hit with the ladies! Anyway, nothing worked on them. Eventually my mother brought me to a 7th daugther of a 7th son of a etc etc, and she waved a cross over me, said a few words, and within a few days the warts were gone. It clearly wasn't just a natural progression. I was quite young at the time, so of course I attributed to some special "powers" on behalf of the "healer", but now, the only conclusion I can come up with is that I believed so much that my warts would go, that they did go. I know the placebo effect has come in for criticism recently, but I readily believe that it can be efficacious in some instances.

You know I have a remarkably similar story. When I was young I had many warts on my hands, more than a dozen at one count and I did absolutely nothing and they just went away of their own accord. It was spooky, so it was.

Faith healers work on a mixture of the placebo effect and the power of suggesion. No faith healer has ever had a confirmed cure of anything, ever. As with all such Woo if they had the implications would be world changing, so you'd wonder why they'd keep quiet about it.

Einhard

kylith wrote: »

Faith healers work on a mixture of the placebo effect and the power of suggesion.

I know. That's what my post was about. But they do work at times, albeit not for the reasons they'd claim.

Oh, and that story wasn't very similar at all!:p

Einhard

Dave! wrote: »

Pretty sure that study showed the opposite actually! The patients who knew that they were being prayed for had slightly more complications than the rest, probably because they were thinking "oh sh*t I must be in trouble if people have to pray for me!"

Think it was patients with heart troubles.

You're right. Damn my memory! Someone pray for me quick!!:D

strobe

shocxxxxxx wrote: »

Probaby the same woman i went to when i had shingles..im from rural tipperary..i cant imagine theres too many around...

anyway i was only 12 at the time so i dont remember much but my mother said she was a "quack"...as apposed to a witch..

I had tried every lotion and potion there was...my back was raw by the time we had heard of this woman..:|

she pierced her finger with a needle and rubbed her blood on my shingles and whaddya know......gone COMPLETELY in two days..like i never had them...:O

She didnt charge us anything either...she just wants to pass on her "cure"...that her father gave her....strange or what...

robindch wrote: »

She what?!!?

Firstly, she could infect herself with the varicella zoster virus, though I presume she's done that already done that by now.

Secondly, if the blisters have broken open and she rubs her blood into you, then I'd imagine you could catch just about any of the thousands of blood-borne diseases that she might be carrying. Blood to blood is the most efficient way of transmitting diseases and if her standards of hygiene are that appallingly low, then I'd say it's almost certain that she's carrying at least a few.

She should be reported to the health authorities, if not the police too, for doing that :mad:

I actually know of a women (now deceased) that did this as well. Apparently she had something in her blood that cured shingles up in about two days flat. I know of 7 cases as my mother put people in contact with her, all the exact same results, 100% success rate and always in the same time frame irrespective of the length of time the person had had the disease. She never claimed a magic ability or anything, she was a nurse for 40 years, but there seems to have been something to it. Agreed on the infection issues though. Although she used to take her blood by syringe and give it to people in milton treated baby bottles so any infection would be one way.

babyface11

bluewolf wrote: »

I had a headache once and then I ate a cheese sandwich and my headache went away

:eek::eek::eek:

You should tell them that story, maybe they'll listen

god dont you know anything that theres powers greater than you and i with healing potential and you should learn to respect people who have it!!!

Sarky

A cheese sandwich filled the gaping cheese sandwich-shaped void in my life this afternoon. Eternal glory to the cheese sandwich!

The Mad Hatter

babyface11 wrote: »

god dont you know anything that theres powers greater than you and i with healing potential and you should learn to respect people who have it!!!

opinion guy

Sarky wrote: »

A cheese sandwich filled the gaping cheese sandwich-shaped void in my life this afternoon. Eternal glory to the cheese sandwich!

Don't forget the inanimate carbon rod !!

All hail the inanimate carbon rod!!

Einhard

babyface11 wrote: »

god dont you know anything that theres powers greater than you and i with healing potential and you should learn to respect people who have it!!!

Yeah, they're called doctors!:pac:

Stercus Accidit

opinion guy wrote: »

Don't forget the animate carbon rod !!

All hail the animate carbon rod!!

The rod was inanimate you heretic! Burn him at the stake rod!

babyface11

babyface11 wrote: »

god dont you know anything that theres powers greater than you and i with healing potential and you should learn to respect people who have it!!!

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

kylith

Einhard wrote: »

Oh, and that story wasn't very similar at all!:p

That was exactly my point. Same problem, same outcome, the only difference is that one person spent who knows how much money on something that the other person knew would happen anyway.

Tell you what. If you give me €50 I'll make it rain at some point over the next two weeks.

rossc007

bluewolf wrote: »

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

You’ve got to be kidding me. I’ve been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It’s just common sense

Gregor Samsa

shocxxxxxx wrote: »

she pierced her finger with a needle and rubbed her blood on my shingles and whaddya know......gone COMPLETELY in two days..like i never had them...:O

... but then I mysteriously caught Hepatitis B, and she couldn't cure that.

Sarky

Update:

I just ended up hungry again. That cheese sandwich lied to me!
Nothing but opium for the mouses.

opinion guy

She's a witch!!!! BURN THE WITCH!!!!!



Oppps sorry that jsut popped out...........

Penn

I had psoriasis when I was younger. My folks brought me to a guy who had the cure. He said a few prayers, poure some candlewax on my legs (I didn't have psoriasis on my legs), said some more prayers, and for two weeks after that, I had to eat a spoonful of treacle with some sulphur (smells like bad eggs) on top, then for two weeks after that, I had to take sulphur tablets. That was about 14 years ago.

I still have psoriasis. What a load of tosh.

My aunt apparently had the cure of something now because she married someone with the same surname. Bull****.

My neighbour had the cure of the shingles too. He died over 10 years ago, and we still get calls asking if he passed the cure on to anyone before he died. Well if you can just pass the cure on to people, why didn't he pass it on to a doctor? Oh, that's right, it's because doctors already know how to cure things.

It's called Medicine!

Y'ever eat treacle and sulphur and find out it was for no reason whatsoever? I have. If I found that prick he'd need someone with the cure for 'my foot up his ass'!

Einhard

kylith wrote: »

That was exactly my point. Same problem, same outcome, the only difference is that one person spent who knows how much money on something that the other person knew would happen anyway.

Tell you what. If you give me €50 I'll make it rain at some point over the next two weeks.

Sometimes I worry about some of my fellow atheists/sceptics. In their attempts to close their minds to religion and spirituality, they sometimes close their minds to genuine scientific possibility. You seem of the belief that the strange and fantastical is the preserve of the spiritual and religiious; I think it's really the preserve of science.

I had warts for years. I went to one of these "healers" and within a few days, they had all disappeared. I'm all for coincidence, but I don't think it can be attributed to this case.

I don't for a moment believe that the warts disappeared because of the spirituality nonsense that the "healer" espoused, or because God decided to rid me of a few warts, whilst leaving the odd famine raging in Africa.

However, I do believe that the power of suggestion on my mind was powerful enough to provide the extra spur for my body to remove the warts itself. I'm positing a scientific basis for these "miracles"; you seem to be dismissing religion and the possibilities inherent in science together.

kylith

Einhard wrote: »

However, I do believe that the power of suggestion on my mind was powerful enough to provide the extra spur for my body to remove the warts itself. I'm positing a scientific basis for these "miracles"; you seem to be dismissing religion and the possibilities inherent in science together.

I am most certainly not ruling out a scientific explanation for these 'miracles', if you read the thread you will see that I've already said that these so-called miracles are the result of the power of suggestion and the placebo effect.

What I'm confused about is the fact that you first say that you accept the possiblility of coincidence, but then disregard it altogether. I also cannot see this 'scientific basis' that you've allegedly posited.

The herpes virus can come and go in a very short period of time and a flare up can be caused, or cured, by something as seemingly unrelated as a change in the weather, and warts and cold sores will usually clear up of their own accord, much like shingles, which was what this thread was about in the first place. Claiming a miracle for something that would have happened anyway is just ridiculous, and if you get warts you're better off buying some Wartner than visiting Mystic Meg.

I really dont' understand people who say "I am a rational person, I understand the placebo effect, the power of suggestion, coincidence, and the fact that most things go into remission of their own accord. But this was definitely a miracle."

As I said; if you believe that giving some old guy €50 to rub blood into you will cure your disease that would have gone away of its own accord, for the same amount of money I will make it rain in the next fortnight. The premise is exactly the same.

JimiTime

robindch wrote: »

She what?!!?

Firstly, she could infect herself with the varicella zoster virus, though I presume she's done that already done that by now.

Secondly, if the blisters have broken open and she rubs her blood into you, then I'd imagine you could catch just about any of the thousands of blood-borne diseases that she might be carrying. Blood to blood is the most efficient way of transmitting diseases and if her standards of hygiene are that appallingly low, then I'd say it's almost certain that she's carrying at least a few.

She should be reported to the health authorities, if not the police too, for doing that :mad:

That doesn't seem very scientific. Between the original claim, and Strobe saying about a woman healing 7 people, would the scientific position not be to test this? Horses are naturally immune to Tetanus, maybe there is a phenomenon going on here. 'Call the police' etc seems more like a 'burn her at the stake' declaration tbh.

opinion guy

JimiTime wrote: »

That doesn't seem very scientific. Between the original claim, and Strobe saying about a woman healing 7 people, would the scientific position not be to test this? Horses are naturally immune to Tetanus, maybe there is a phenomenon going on here. 'Call the police' etc seems more like a 'burn her at the stake' declaration tbh.

Um....what ?

robindch

JimiTime wrote: »

That doesn't seem very scientific.

Er, are you saying that there's some medical doubt as to whether exchanging blood is an amazingly dumb thing to do?

kylith

JimiTime wrote: »

That doesn't seem very scientific. Between the original claim, and Strobe saying about a woman healing 7 people, would the scientific position not be to test this? Horses are naturally immune to Tetanus, maybe there is a phenomenon going on here. 'Call the police' etc seems more like a 'burn her at the stake' declaration tbh.

I'm sorry but whilst, yes, she should be tested to see if she's carrying any diseases the first thing should definitely be to inform the proper authorities that someone is going around rubbing their blood into open wounds. If she's been doing this for years there's a very, very good chance that she could have anything from herpes to, gods forbid, HIV.

sink

JimiTime I assume you would object to someone preparing your food in a restaurant without washing their hands or wearing gloves, well allowing someone to rub their blood into your open wounds is several magnitudes more dangerous. Just as a restaurant can be prosecuted and closed due to poor hygiene, so should other businesses.

JimiTime

kylith wrote: »

I'm sorry but whilst, yes, she should be tested to see if she's carrying any diseases the first thing should definitely be to inform the proper authorities that someone is going around rubbing their blood into open wounds. If she's been doing this for years there's a very, very good chance that she could have anything from herpes to, gods forbid, HIV.

Maybe, but maybe she doesn't. Anyway, its interesting that the claims don't trigger the alledged 'scientific minds' in anyone, and instead trigger the atheist, 'what a pile of sh1te' mind in most. And some say that its religion thats anti-science:)

Whatever you want to say about hygiene etc, I'm surprised no-one has actually even expressed an interest in if there is anything behind it. Maybe there is a phenomenon here, that people are calling magic, but is actually an immunity thing going on. Just surprising that the self appointed bastions of science didn't even express a scientific view on the matter that's all.

Dave!

JimiTime wrote: »

Maybe, but maybe she doesn't. Anyway, its interesting that the claims don't trigger the alledged 'scientific minds' in anyone, and instead trigger the atheist, 'what a pile of sh1te' mind in most. And some say that its religion thats anti-science:)

Whatever you want to say about hygiene etc, I'm surprised no-one has actually even expressed an interest in if there is anything behind it. Maybe there is a phenomenon here, that people are calling magic, but is actually an immunity thing going on. Just surprising that the self appointed bastions of science didn't even express a scientific view on the matter that's all.

You're not surprised at all, cos you're a troll, not a moron

Einhard

kylith wrote: »

I am most certainly not ruling out a scientific explanation for these 'miracles', if you read the thread you will see that I've already said that these so-called miracles are the result of the power of suggestion and the placebo effect.

That's exactly what I claimed, and yet your response was sarcastic, bordering on the mocking. If you accept the placebo effect and the power of suggestion, what's your problem when I ascribe the disappearanc eof my warts to those entirely secular phenomena?

What I'm confused about is the fact that you first say that you accept the possiblility of coincidence, but then disregard it altogether. I also cannot see this 'scientific basis' that you've allegedly posited.

You're easily confused then. I don't for a moment disregard coincidence altogether as you claim. I don't think it was a factor in this specific incident. I had multitude of warts for years, and nothing worked on them. I had my hands blessed, and within 48 hours they had gone. I find it hard to believe that that was simply a coincidence. I could equally say, that I'm confused by the fact that you accept placebo and suggestion, and yet disregard them altogether.

Further, I didn't claim my conclusions were based on a scientific analysis. Rather they're the best i can come up with, and rest on phenomena which have a basis in science, and which you have already accepted. I really don't understand your objections therefore.

The herpes virus can come and go in a very short period of time and a flare up can be caused, or cured, by something as seemingly unrelated as a change in the weather, and warts and cold sores will usually clear up of their own accord, much like shingles, which was what this thread was about in the first place. Claiming a miracle for something that would have happened anyway is just ridiculous, and if you get warts you're better off buying some Wartner than visiting Mystic Meg.

Ok, now I get it. It's obvious you haven't read any of my posts. I never claimed the disappearance of my warts was a miracle. Indeed, the whole point of my original post, was to posit a rational, scientifically sound, explanation for my experience. And it's one that you claim to accept! So again, what exactly is your objection?!

I really dont' understand people who say "I am a rational person, I understand the placebo effect, the power of suggestion, coincidence, and the fact that most things go into remission of their own accord. But this was definitely a miracle."

What are you talking about?! I never claimed it was a miracle! Did you even read my posts?!

As I said; if you believe that giving some old guy €50 to rub blood into you will cure your disease that would have gone away of its own accord, for the same amount of money I will make it rain in the next fortnight. The premise is exactly the same.

Ok, this is getting annoying now. Please read my posts before you respond to them.

krudler

babyface11 wrote: »

god dont you know anything that theres powers greater than you and i with healing potential and you should learn to respect people who have it!!!

have what? the power?

of Greyskull?

awesome.