Poll: Is it right to cut benefits for those who refuse work or training?

mikemac · 25-04-2011 05:42PM

All dole payments should be reduced the longer a person remains unemployed

Childcare costs hundreds and hundreds per month.
But work in childcare is very low paid, not much more then minimum wage. Someone is making a tidy profit out of it anyway.

So instead of giving grants and subsidies to private operators why can't the State run them?

Take the profit element out of it and also, pay the childcare workers a better wage
Parens can pay cost price if they are working or maybe free if they are low paid themselves, prices can be looked at and those are just details. It shouldn't be the high prices it currently is

angelfire9 · 25-04-2011 05:49PM

I would imagine the insurance for a Creche is just crazy
There are also a ton of regulations that have to be met
Equipment (toys etc) costs money
And there are overheads like lighting & heat

Having said THAT childcare is ridiculously expensive in Ireland there has to be a better option for parents than to spend what is in some cases the equivalent of a mortgage on childcare costs

chocgirl · 25-04-2011 06:04PM

Other (state in post)

I'm very wary of a lot of the training courses currently being provided. There is no point in providing courses just to pay people social welfare. The cost of the courses are colossal and I've never seen any statistics provided on the outcome of said courses, i.e. what percentage of people trained actually get any work.

I know several young men who gave up part-time employment (admittedly low paid employment) because they wanted to do a "coaching" course that will paid them more than working. Now call me stupid but I'm not aware of a great deal of paid work in sports coaching and I work in a related field. The vast majority of coaching in Ireland is at a voluntary level so surely it's a pointless exercise.

Re. childcare it's extremely expensive, but it's short-term (on a full-time basis anyway) and everyone having a family knows it's expensive, it has been for the last twenty years.

Spudmonkey · 25-04-2011 06:04PM

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Jesus these threads are becoming fcuking boring. Nearly every other day someone starts a thread to launch an attack on the unemployed in this country and to beat them all with the same stick. For every 1 lazy fcuker out there there is 20 lads who would love a job but can't get one because the previous government ruined the biggest opportunity this nation ever had.

Rolleyes ****ing rolleyes.....

Perhaps we should just continue as we are until we run out of the money we have.

Devi · 25-04-2011 06:31PM

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

chocgirl wrote: »

Re. childcare it's extremely expensive, but it's short-term (on a full-time basis anyway) and everyone having a family knows it's expensive, it has been for the last twenty years.

yea but it wasn’t 50% of a wage though, it was more like 20%.

In fairness though there were no crèches for most back then. It was a family member/neighbour that used to take care of them. We just need to accept that we can’t live like we did 5 years ago, including a top notch crèche for the little darling. We need to go back to the eighties in our mentality because the economy/unemployment is already there.

chocgirl · 25-04-2011 06:57PM

Other (state in post)

Devi wrote: »

yea but it wasn’t 50% of a wage though, it was more like 20%.

In fairness though there were no crèches for most back then. It was a family member/neighbour that used to take care of them. We just need to accept that we can’t live like we did 5 years ago, including a top notch crèche for the little darling. We need to go back to the eighties in our mentality because the economy/unemployment is already there.

I agree completely but childcare is a necessity, and for those who are not fortunate enough to have a family member who can do it at a reduced cost creches are a necessary part of life. There is a huge variation in creches and I think most people don't send their children to top notch creches as it is. There are very few top notch creches in fact.

Embracing the 80s mentality is essential now, definitely, but parents need to cease the mindless overindulgence of children with material possessions rather than scrimp on childcare.

Guy:Incognito · 25-04-2011 07:00PM

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

angelfire9 wrote: »

Only if they sort out some kind of childcare for people with kids
How can I go on a scheme and pay for childcare? I'd be out of pocket every week by over €150

Out of pocket of the money you get for free? What about the free training they'd be giving you? Or the job you got?

I'm on the dole and have kids btw.

angelfire9 · 25-04-2011 07:05PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Out of pocket of the money you get for free? What about the free training they'd be giving you? Or the job you got?

I'm on the dole and have kids btw.

I have a degree and a professional qualification as well as numerous certs (ECDL, Microsoft Trainer and SAP courses)

I'd be interested in seeing what kind of course they'd send me on!

starviewadams · 25-04-2011 07:07PM

I'd doubt very many people would actually turn down a job in this day and age,or a place on a worthwhile training course.

Guy:Incognito · 25-04-2011 07:08PM

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

angelfire9 wrote: »

I have a degree and a professional qualification as well as numerous certs (ECDL, Microsoft Trainer and SAP courses)

I'd be interested in seeing what kind of course they'd send me on!

Your right, your clearly too smart to learn anything new.

Maybe a reading course to combat you missing half the threa title and dissmissing it out of hand. What about a job? Or will you only stop takign money and agree to work on your terms?

swordofislam · 25-04-2011 07:42PM

Other (state in post)

Where I live the unemployment rate has increased from 4% to 14% lifestyle choice my hairy arse.

saywhatyousee · 25-04-2011 07:54PM

the current rates for 18-22 year olds is 100 euro
for 22-25 it is 144 i hardly call that cosy to be fair

Devi · 25-04-2011 08:17PM

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

saywhatyousee wrote: »

the current rates for 18-22 year olds is 100 euro
for 22-25 it is 144 i hardly call that cosy to be fair

I know two 20 year olds (a couple) that live with their parents, never had a job, don’t do training and never been asked for proof that they have been looking for a job they get the full whack, 188 or whatever it is. (That 100 euro thing only applies to Dublin and other cities from my experience.) Nearly 400 quid between them, more deposable cash that most working couples with kids.

saywhatyousee · 25-04-2011 08:24PM

Devi wrote: »

(That 100 euro thing only applies to Dublin and other cities from my experience.).

I dont think that is true could'nt be

angelfire9 · 25-04-2011 08:31PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Your right, your clearly too smart to learn anything new.

Maybe a reading course to combat you missing half the threa title and dissmissing it out of hand. What about a job? Or will you only stop takign money and agree to work on your terms?

If I have already stated if you'd read my posts instead of jumping down my throat that childcare would be an issue as I would have to pay for a childminder in order to take a course

Given that I am not "taking money" from social welfare for anything other than child benefit (i am not entitled to JSA due to my husband's salary) I think it is a tad unfair of you to jump to conclusions in that regard

Furthermore I have stated on NUMEROUS other threads that in order for it to be financially worthwhile for me to work I would need to earn enough to cover my costs of working i.e. petrol & childcare otherwise i HAVE to sit at home

Devi · 25-04-2011 08:36PM

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

saywhatyousee wrote: »

I dont think that is true could'nt be

Well as I said it’s only from my experience so I don’t know how widespread it is but both of them live in a smallish town and are getting away with it (and so is there family). Anybody I know in Dublin isn’t. And it’s not even a matter of them knowing the people in SW either or "looking after their own" because one of them is from Dublin originally.

Oh_Noes · 25-04-2011 08:50PM

I think each case should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, forcing someone to do a course that they've no interest in would be a waste of money. The interests and skills of the unemployed people in question should be sought when setting up courses in local training authorities.

I don't think think anyone should be "cut" without having their personal situation looked at, people may be suffering from mental health problems or have other family responsibilites that for whatever reason, they won't like to talk about.

So in summary, a much more efficient approach is needed in FÁS and the other training bodies, and a more thorough, rigorous assessment of the unemployed and their individual situations should be sought.

saywhatyousee · 25-04-2011 08:57PM

Devi wrote: »

Well as I said it’s only from my experience so I don’t know how widespread it is but both of them live in a smallish town and are getting away with it (and so is there family). Anybody I know in Dublin isn’t. And it’s not even a matter of them knowing the people in SW either or "looking after their own" because one of them is from Dublin originally.

Fair enough.I am not totally against the idea,I just have to feeling it is goin to be a massive fcuk up.There would be little or no point introducing it now most courses would be finishing up now,and there would be massive strain on the job market in the summer months.Might be an option once sep/oct comes but i would hold off till then

sdanseo · 25-04-2011 08:59PM

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

ÀBSOLUTELY, nobody should be turning down work in this climate. Anyone refusing a job that pays the minimum wage should be taken out and pelted with rotten fruit before being sent home with no dole.

Guy:Incognito · 25-04-2011 09:19PM

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

angelfire9 wrote: »

If I have already stated if you'd read my posts instead of jumping down my throat that childcare would be an issue as I would have to pay for a childminder in order to take a course

Given that I am not "taking money" from social welfare for anything other than child benefit (i am not entitled to JSA due to my husband's salary) I think it is a tad unfair of you to jump to conclusions in that regard

Furthermore I have stated on NUMEROUS other threads that in order for it to be financially worthwhile for me to work I would need to earn enough to cover my costs of working i.e. petrol & childcare otherwise i HAVE to sit at home

The thread doesnt apply to you so seeing as your not getting benefits.

angelfire9 · 25-04-2011 09:32PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The thread doesnt apply to you so seeing as your not getting benefits.

Not entitled to an opinion then am I not?
I am unemployed
I'm sure I'm not the only unemployed person in Ireland that has good qualifications
Nor am I the only unemployed person who finds the cost of childcare to be a bar against taking courses and/or jobs!!

Guy:Incognito · 25-04-2011 09:49PM

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

angelfire9 wrote: »

Not entitled to an opinion then am I not?
I am unemployed
I'm sure I'm not the only unemployed person in Ireland that has good qualifications
Nor am I the only unemployed person who finds the cost of childcare to be a bar against taking courses and/or jobs!!

Well your not going be be asked to go on any courses or expected to take a job that could affect your benefits seeing as your not on any. What you do with your time is your own issue.

The thread specifically relates to whether people should continue to recieve full benefits while refusing to go on courses that the people providing social welfare want them to go on.

bnt · 25-04-2011 11:39PM

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

As usual on Boards, most posters are forgetting that this kind of things is being done elsewhere in the world already, and it's not done blindly. Germany and the Scandinavian countries have already been mentioned - and then there's the UK. If it's going to be like those there's no need for the horror stories.

For starters, the jobs in question are those found by the govt. agency - which will be FÁS here. They can only offer you the jobs that they get in: they won't leave you to find a job on your own or blame you for not finding jobs that aren't out there. Then there's the question of costs: benefits are means tested, and if you would e.g. have to incur high child care costs, you would not be expected to go out and work at all.

This is all common sense: it can be done intelligently, allowing people to work without leaving them worse off than you were before on benefits. Whether that will actually happen here in Ireland is a question I'm in no position to answer. I'm just saying that people are wrong to assume the worst or spread horror stories. If you have a valid reason why you can't work, they have to respect that: if you don't have a valid reason, and there are jobs out there, you'd be expected to take one. Even picking mushrooms looks good on a CV. :cool:

KINGVictor · 25-04-2011 11:41PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Inspired by a Journal.ie poll, do you think that people on the dole who refuse work or training should have their welfare cut?

Joan Burton, she of that entertaining pre-election display with Joe Higgins on the Vincent Browne Show, who is now the minister for Social Protection, has said she is going to introduce this.

I'm at a loss to know why this has not been done yet. The number of people in the 18-25 age group especially who are settling into a culture of unemployment and apathy is deeply unsettling. I know one in particular and his lethargy and lack of motivation is infuriating. I'm trying to help him emigrate now but he's just happy hanging out with his old school friends. In Sweden, for example, the longer you remain out of work/training/college the less money you get. Work becomes more incentivised with every day on the dole. It's madness that something this basic has not been done in Ireland yet.

It is quite a complicated issue in all fairness.

While, I am very open to the idea of designing and implementing punitive measures to "encourage" unemployed welfare benefit recipients to take up available work or training, it is not as clear cut as some of posters seem to be implying.

The reality is that:

1. A lot of folks have been on benefits for years, even in the so called boom years and have gotten used to the idea of getting paid weekly for doing nothing.

2. Some people on benefits utilise the system to alleviate the repercussions/inconveniences attached to the choices they have made in life.

3. Some are genuinely taking advantage of the opportunities of the welfare system to improve their prospects/opportunities in life.

4. Unfortunately, this group have worked and contributed to the public purse and have lost their jobs because of the economic reality in the country.

When Burton decides to implement this policy, how would her department differentiate between these folks. Would it be an umbrella policy or be on a case by case basis? I reckon it will be the former and that will be unfair.

Lets forget the theoretical aspects, the reality is that the current government made so much noice about the jobs initiative during the campaign. All we hear is the same highly skilled jobs been created by US firms daily looking for their share of a low tax entry to the EU market plus a very lucrative spot for tax avoidance.

When Joan and her colleagues provide an enabling environment for the real economy to thrive and not make endless excuses about their predecessor's failures, then they will be in a position to make decisions about cutting/limiting benefits considering they are dithering about restructuring the abysmal salaries of semi-state workers.

ArtSmart · 25-04-2011 11:53PM

as with all these 'dole threads' i can only offer the same response.

shoot em.

shoot em all.

damn spongers...mutter...my hard earned cash...mutter...bloody cheek...single mothers my arse....bloody parasites...mutter, mutter....let em starve...yeah you heard me....I'll never be unemployed, that's for sure...collect empty beer cans i would...there own fault....and as for them bloody students...

and yes, i know this is structured as a reasonable 'choice' type poll, but it's bollix. but i aint gonna waste time explaining why.

Dionysus · 26-04-2011 12:07AM

Other (state in post)

g_moriarty wrote: »

To be fair now, the OP's post is a thinly veiled attack on those in receipt of social welfare, + the guy you quoted made a very valid point regarding the ratio of wasters to genuine jobseekers and that measures like this will make absolute minimal difference in the grand scheme of the future of the country's finances.

It's not. It's an attack on the social welfare system that exists in Ireland today, in particular against a system which has no monetary incentive for people to get off the dole. In most countries in Europe unemployment benefit is reduced the longer a person is unemployed or refuses to take up training or education which will improve their chances of getting a new job. That makes huge sense, but such a system does not exist in Ireland. It should, and that is what this thread is about.

People who are on the dole are able to work. People who are too ill to do so are on other payments. In other words, people on the dole are saying they are able and willing to work - but this state has nothing to disincentivise their refusal to accept jobs or take up training or courses which will improve their job prospects. That's wrong.

Not to throw the cat among the pigeons, but it's also wrong that for very many low-income earners, when they take into account their free medical card, rent allowance and other social welfare supports, they are financially better off not working. There has to be a bigger gap between the income of low income earners and the income of people who live off social welfare.

Dionysus · 26-04-2011 12:08AM

Other (state in post)

ArtSmart wrote: »

as with all these 'dole threads' i can only offer the same response.

shoot em.

shoot em all.

damn spongers...mutter...my hard earned cash...mutter...bloody cheek...single mothers my arse....bloody parasites...mutter, mutter....let em starve...yeah you heard me....I'll never be unemployed, that's for sure...collect empty beer cans i would...there own fault....and as for them bloody students...

and yes, i know this is structured as a reasonable 'choice' type poll, but it's bollix. but i aint gonna waste time explaining why.

Are you always this paranoid or are you making a special effort today?

Dionysus · 26-04-2011 12:14AM

Other (state in post)

KINGVictor wrote: »

It is quite a complicated issue in all fairness.

While, I am very open to the idea of designing and implementing punitive measures to "encourage" unemployed welfare benefit recipients to take up available work or training, it is not as clear cut as some of posters seem to be implying.

The reality is that:

1. A lot of folks have been on benefits for years, even in the so called boom years and have gotten used to the idea of getting paid weekly for doing nothing.

2. Some people on benefits utilise the system to alleviate the repercussions/inconveniences attached to the choices they have made in life.

3. Some are genuinely taking advantage of the opportunities of the welfare system to improve their prospects/opportunities in life.

4. Unfortunately, this group have worked and contributed to the public purse and have lost their jobs because of the economic reality in the country.

When Burton decides to implement this policy, how would her department differentiate between these folks. Would it be an umbrella policy or be on a case by case basis? I reckon it will be the former and that will be unfair.

Lets forget the theoretical aspects, the reality is that the current government made so much noice about the jobs initiative during the campaign. All we hear is the same highly skilled jobs been created by US firms daily looking for their share of a low tax entry to the EU market plus a very lucrative spot for tax avoidance.

When Joan and her colleagues provide an enabling environment for the real economy to thrive and not make endless excuses about their predecessor's failures, then they will be in a position to make decisions about cutting/limiting benefits considering they are dithering about restructuring the abysmal salaries of semi-state workers.

While I have no problem accepting your well thought-out distinctions, I may be misreading this but so what if they've got used to getting money for nothing. Most sections of society are enduring cutbacks and greater productivity demands. What right do these people have to not face similar obligations from the state which is paying them?

ArtSmart · 26-04-2011 10:44AM

dj jarvis wrote: »

your correct about the amount of dole/civil servant bashing threads , more and more each day , some vicious things being said

but this thread does ask a legitimate question , because if they are not looking for work and the child minding does not interfere then surely the
recipient has no ground to refuse either training or job interviews .

and especially the under 25's because if they get use to sitting with the hand out they will be next to impossible to motivate

most of the people i know that were on the dole from 18 to 25 years are still on it and they are now in their mid 40's and have not done much else

THB i think most would probably enjoy doing SOMETHING rather than sitting doing nothing - or would they ?

Look folks, this isn't about anything other than optics.
The Labour party wanna look tough. fine. no prob. now let's look at the reality.

Train at what? how? and most of all HOW MUCH? what about travel / childcare etc costs?

Think about that. How much will it cost to 'train' the hoards of unemployed?

So what, it's an investment. True.

so say it could be paid for, now what.

1/ the course must increase one chances of obtaining employment.

great. where? in Ireland?

(i fully believe in edu as a value in itself, but we're talking re-training for work here. of course, the start your own business option might help here, but it's not for all)

2/ the trainee must be capable of completing the course - otherwise it's a waste of money.

which brings us to another point. If you force someone to take a course - FORCE not incentivise, what do you think the pass rate will be?

(and don't give me the 'if they fail = no dole' bollix)

Of course, if we encourage, promote etc a range of funded courses, which the applicant wishes to pursue that would be a good thing - being active at something is a lot better than not. but it has to be something the trainee has at least some aptitude for and ideally interest in and most of all it has to be real (relevant, well structured etc) (anyone remember the old days of how to use a telephone training, using a banana?)

but we're back to cost.

COST

As things stand the govt has difficulty funding education and training options.

at best, they will sweat the resources which exist - ie use the colleges during the summer - but they'll still need tutors

now, if they intend to fund all those unemployed grads out there, to educate others in a building which is under-used at night and in the summer - GREAT. - if it were possible.

and that's what they should announce.

but no. Labour are obsessed with dipping into the middle class voter pool, which time and time again, cost them seats. not bec the middle ground wont vote labour, but bec Labour constantly mis-understand the middle class - same as Niamh Bhreathnach (min for ed) did years ago.

will they ever fuking learn.

tomred1 · 26-04-2011 11:57AM

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

This is nothing new. This has been the case for donkey years now.

Poll: Is it right to cut benefits for those who refuse work or training?

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