Poll: Is it right to cut benefits for those who refuse work or training?

Dionysus

Inspired by a Journal.ie poll, do you think that people on the dole who refuse work or training should have their welfare cut?

Joan Burton, she of that entertaining pre-election display with Joe Higgins on the Vincent Browne Show, who is now the minister for Social Protection, has said she is going to introduce this.

I'm at a loss to know why this has not been done yet. The number of people in the 18-25 age group especially who are settling into a culture of unemployment and apathy is deeply unsettling. I know one in particular and his lethargy and lack of motivation is infuriating. I'm trying to help him emigrate now but he's just happy hanging out with his old school friends. In Sweden, for example, the longer you remain out of work/training/college the less money you get. Work becomes more incentivised with every day on the dole. It's madness that something this basic has not been done in Ireland yet.

chin_grin

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

Yes, but the Department of Social Welfare need to enforce the "are you actively looking for work?" part of the benefit to single out these eejits.

I was on the dole for a year and was still seeking but never once was asked this! I thought that was a requisite?

angelfire9

Only if they sort out some kind of childcare for people with kids
How can I go on a scheme and pay for childcare? I'd be out of pocket every week by over €150

7sr2z3fely84g5

Situation way it is,the previous gov made a balls by increasing it during the good times then in desperation when went broke by introducing an universial social charge on the working who some situations would be better off on welfare due to cost of living.

Alot of services+prices have to be cut first before incentive to work,i cant imagine how much it costs people to bring their kids to the doctor and hand over €50+ for consultation then add medicine on top of that when all this would be free with med card which would need a reform itself to stop any exploitations by the work shy.

Alot of people have their mortgage paid for with the situation,of course there's also alot of people applying for jobs but the vast amount of people applying who get chosen over because theres simply not enough work.

Personally,i think there should be a savage cut to the former ministers/public servants millionaire type pensions which is draining the country,but one back scratches the other so i dont think it will happen.

Agricola

I think so. Guy I know is on the scratch for over 6 months now and as he has no major expenses like rent / mortgage or a car, hes managing comfortably on it.
There should be some incentive to at least go on training courses.

Duiske

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

Wynter Tasteless Smallness wrote: »

Alot of people have their mortgage paid for with the situation,

Can you please provide details of any social welfare scheme under which unemployed people "have their mortgage paid for". There is help to be had from the HSE for people struggling with mortgage repayments, but they only help with the interest portion of the repayment.

My name is URL

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

Of course anyone refusing to work or take part in training courses should have their welfare cut. I don't know why the question even needs to be asked.

It's a pity that it's not already the case because implementing it now will have its own set of problems.

Einhard

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

Yeah, of course. But the training has to be somewhat relevent to what they might consider doing in thefuture. There's no point in forcing someone to partake in a course in something for which they have no interest.

El Horseboxo

The thing is. There is fúck all work for people to refuse. I've mates with trades, degrees and previous work experience in specific fields and they are looking for work for a long time. They're not out everyday handing in cv's or nothing which some people tend to expect but i know they are actively looking for work and most are considering emigration at this stage.

7sr2z3fely84g5

Duiske wrote: »

Can you please provide details of any social welfare scheme under which unemployed people "have their mortgage paid for". There is help to be had from the HSE for people struggling with mortgage repayments, but they only help with the interest portion of the repayment.

i worded it wrong,apologises,i meant in paying off drips and draps with it.

Dwellingdweller

El Horseboxo wrote: »

The thing is. There is fúck all work for people to refuse. I've mates with trades, degrees and previous work experience in specific fields and they are looking for work for a long time. They're not out everyday handing in cv's or nothing which some people tend to expect but i know they are actively looking for work and most are considering emigration at this stage.

My gran just spent 3 weeks travelling round Oz, she says they're desperate for trades from Brisbane, all the way north. My uncle (her son) moved there 12 years ago. He's an electrician and he's a fab lifestyle, runs his own small firm, owns a fishing boat that he takes his employees fishing on. And he's swamped with work.

Rob113

Other (state in post)

Most definitely. I know plenty of people who have turned down full time employment because they have it too handy on the dole. Rent allowance + medical card + dole + fuel allowance and whatever else they get. These people are all under 25 aswell. Absolutely no incentive for them to go out working. No incentive to try buy a house. It's all handed to them. Joke of a system.

Tipsy McSwagger

Jesus these threads are becoming fcuking boring. Nearly every other day someone starts a thread to launch an attack on the unemployed in this country and to beat them all with the same stick. For every 1 lazy fcuker out there there is 20 lads who would love a job but can't get one because the previous government ruined the biggest opportunity this nation ever had.

Devi

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

I don’t think it is as black and white as yes and no. If your an out of work IT Engineer and Fas are trying to give you a wpp in a mushroom farm then come on like, thats not going to help the individual or the economy in the long run.

RasTa

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

How about we just kill everyone who is on the dole, that will save the moonies.

cosanostra

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

El Horseboxo wrote: »

The thing is. There is fúck all work for people to refuse. I've mates with trades, degrees and previous work experience in specific fields and they are looking for work for a long time. They're not out everyday handing in cv's or nothing which some people tend to expect but i know they are actively looking for work and most are considering emigration at this stage.

Good point people with trades tend to look for work on a face to face basis or no someone who gets them in. You don't get letters of refusal back and things like that so it makes it very difficult to prove your looking for work

Einhard

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Jesus these threads are becoming fcuking boring. Nearly every other day someone starts a thread to launch an attack on the unemployed in this country and to beat them all with the same stick. For every 1 lazy fcuker out there there is 20 lads who would love a job but can't get one because the previous government ruined the biggest opportunity this nation ever had.

How exactly is the OP's query an attack on unemployed people? Can we not tak about the unemployed situation now, for fear that people will accuse us of persecuting and attacking them??

tayto lover

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

I have no problem regarding the dole at all except in the case of the lazy gits who never worked, never will work and who would run a mile from a job.

People who find themselves out of work as a result of the downturn in the economy have my deepest sympathy.

g_moriarty

Einhard wrote: »

How exactly is the OP's query an attack on unemployed people? Can we not tak about the unemployed situation now, for fear that people will accuse us of persecuting and attacking them??

To be fair now, the OP's post is a thinly veiled attack on those in receipt of social welfare, + the guy you quoted made a very valid point regarding the ratio of wasters to genuine jobseekers and that measures like this will make absolute minimal difference in the grand scheme of the future of the country's finances.

meditraitor

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

The social welfare should not be a long term solution, gradual reductions over time and cut of if it can be proven that you are not activaly looking for work or training.

There are other options that should be looked at to ease the transition, the ancilary benefits should be phased out after finding work again, obvious things like a rent allowance and medical cards should be available for say 6-12 months after gaining employment.
With rent allowance I would suggest a gradual decline the longer your working and also rates of pay being factored in.

I havent really thought this through but becoming employed again should not be a kick in the teeth as it wis right now for anyone who takes a low paid job...... and keeping some benefits (even reduced) might just be the solution to soften the blow,

kingtut

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

Yes! Fair enough some people are on the dole because they have hit hard times (and others because they are too lazy and want to sponge off of the state!!).

How much you get should definitely be reflected by your willingness to go to a training course or to take up any job offer you are given!!

[Jackass]

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

Get this, I was told in the dole office that I need to stay unemployed for another 6 months in order to get Back To Education allowance when I go back to college in September.

I found a job and start Monday, but because I'm now going to work for a few months before college I wont get this allowance (c. 150 per week) and will only get a small grant of about 1k for the academic year, which goes straight away to registration fees, and if I can't find a part-time job in college, I'll be screwed, with no income and no social welfare entitlments.

Like, I feel stupid going back to work, only that it's a very well paying job and I'll be able to save for a few months, if it was an average type of job that anyone (including myself) is looking for at the moment, I would be stupid to take it, and was more or less told this at the dole office...

The system is stupid.

I also think it's too much and there's little or nothing done to encourage people to go back to work or help them, I was very lucky, and I wont even begin to go into all the ways it's open to abuse and is being abused, and I've only been on it 2 months and can see how from experiencing the system.

RayM

I'm unemployed and if I took a full-time, low-paid job, I'd be around €150 richer every week. To me, that's enough of an incentive. I don't need to be threatened with having my unemployment benefit slashed, in the event that I refuse a place on an ECDL course.

When there are hundreds of thousands of unemployed people, desperate to work, it seems a bit silly to attempt to force the unwilling minority (who, more often than not, could be more accurately described as unable) to take jobs that the majority would gladly jump at.

kingtut

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

RayM wrote: »

the unwilling minority (who, more often than not, could be more accurately described as unable)

To be honest I think no matter your illness / disability / condition etc there is always something you can do.....

Blazer

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

RasTa wrote: »

How about we just kill everyone who is on the dole, that will save the moonies.

Don't be ridiculous dude...we'll still have to pay for the bullets to kill the fúckers,
buy em burial plots, pay the priests +altarboys to say mass for them, pay for the wreaths as the scroungers are too poor to buy their own etc..
Even dead they'll cost us a fortune

Ideally we'd like them to get a job or frak off somewhere else

dj jarvis

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Jesus these threads are becoming fcuking boring. Nearly every other day someone starts a thread to launch an attack on the unemployed in this country and to beat them all with the same stick. For every 1 lazy fcuker out there there is 20 lads who would love a job but can't get one because the previous government ruined the biggest opportunity this nation ever had.

your correct about the amount of dole/civil servant bashing threads , more and more each day , some vicious things being said

but this thread does ask a legitimate question , because if they are not looking for work and the child minding does not interfere then surely the
recipient has no ground to refuse either training or job interviews .

and especially the under 25's because if they get use to sitting with the hand out they will be next to impossible to motivate

most of the people i know that were on the dole from 18 to 25 years are still on it and they are now in their mid 40's and have not done much else

THB i think most would probably enjoy doing SOMETHING rather than sitting doing nothing - or would they ?

meditraitor

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

dj jarvis wrote: »

but this thread does ask a legitimate question , because if they are not looking for work and the child minding does not interfere then surely the
recipient has no ground to refuse either training or job interviews .
?

You got me thinking here, so your unemployed and have a kid. You get offered a job 9-5 monday to friday 8.95 an hour

What is that? about €1300 a month after tax.

I know for a fact that were I live the cost of Childcare for a month on a 9month old baby is €1000 but it goes down to €950 when the little one is older say 18 months.

How the feck can you and the little one live on €480 (including Child Benefit)per month without state assistance of some kind,

Rent/ESB/Food, would wipe it out and leave in dept after the first month back to work......

Earthhorse

I don't know if it's right but I certainly think it's fair.

RasTa wrote: »

How about we just kill everyone who is on the dole, that will save the moonies.

Sure, but what about the Johnstons and O'Briens?

Azureus

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

[Jackass] wrote: »

Get this, I was told in the dole office that I need to stay unemployed for another 6 months in order to get Back To Education allowance when I go back to college in September.

I found a job and start Monday, but because I'm now going to work for a few months before college I wont get this allowance (c. 150 per week) and will only get a small grant of about 1k for the academic year, which goes straight away to registration fees, and if I can't find a part-time job in college, I'll be screwed, with no income and no social welfare entitlments.


QUOTE]

This exact thing happened to my brother, the system makes little or no sense.
Same as the college grants in general to be honest..the fact that it relies on your parents income, whether you have anything to do with them or not, is ridiculous. I dont have an alternative solution though in fairness.

As for dole being cut if you dont train etc, then yes I think it should be. Volunteering should also be counted imo, because at least you're doing something and giving back. Not saying everyone on the dole are wasters, far from it, but everyone I know on the dole would be glad to see an incentive scheme introduced that allowed them to be entitled to the benefits without everyone labelling them lazy slobs.
Only th elazy and work shy would have a problem with it.

Lawrence1895

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

This is a normal procedure in Germany though there are certain limits: You don't need to take the job offer, when you are minding a child/looking after a sick family member, or when the job is way below your skills, or when there is no public transport available (and you don't have a driving license)

But FAS and the welfare office are under one and the same roof, this makes it easier to look into the matter, I suppose

seriouslysweet

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

The dole should not be a lifestyle choice as it is for many people. Those who lost jobs etc are in a different boat, surely if free childcare was offered to everyone working it would create many jobs and give less excuses to those who are willing to work but cannot.

mikemac

All dole payments should be reduced the longer a person remains unemployed

Childcare costs hundreds and hundreds per month.
But work in childcare is very low paid, not much more then minimum wage. Someone is making a tidy profit out of it anyway.

So instead of giving grants and subsidies to private operators why can't the State run them?

Take the profit element out of it and also, pay the childcare workers a better wage
Parens can pay cost price if they are working or maybe free if they are low paid themselves, prices can be looked at and those are just details. It shouldn't be the high prices it currently is

angelfire9

I would imagine the insurance for a Creche is just crazy
There are also a ton of regulations that have to be met
Equipment (toys etc) costs money
And there are overheads like lighting & heat

Having said THAT childcare is ridiculously expensive in Ireland there has to be a better option for parents than to spend what is in some cases the equivalent of a mortgage on childcare costs

chocgirl

Other (state in post)

I'm very wary of a lot of the training courses currently being provided. There is no point in providing courses just to pay people social welfare. The cost of the courses are colossal and I've never seen any statistics provided on the outcome of said courses, i.e. what percentage of people trained actually get any work.

I know several young men who gave up part-time employment (admittedly low paid employment) because they wanted to do a "coaching" course that will paid them more than working. Now call me stupid but I'm not aware of a great deal of paid work in sports coaching and I work in a related field. The vast majority of coaching in Ireland is at a voluntary level so surely it's a pointless exercise.

Re. childcare it's extremely expensive, but it's short-term (on a full-time basis anyway) and everyone having a family knows it's expensive, it has been for the last twenty years.

Spudmonkey

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Jesus these threads are becoming fcuking boring. Nearly every other day someone starts a thread to launch an attack on the unemployed in this country and to beat them all with the same stick. For every 1 lazy fcuker out there there is 20 lads who would love a job but can't get one because the previous government ruined the biggest opportunity this nation ever had.

Rolleyes ****ing rolleyes.....

Perhaps we should just continue as we are until we run out of the money we have.

Devi

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

chocgirl wrote: »

Re. childcare it's extremely expensive, but it's short-term (on a full-time basis anyway) and everyone having a family knows it's expensive, it has been for the last twenty years.

yea but it wasn’t 50% of a wage though, it was more like 20%.

In fairness though there were no crèches for most back then. It was a family member/neighbour that used to take care of them. We just need to accept that we can’t live like we did 5 years ago, including a top notch crèche for the little darling. We need to go back to the eighties in our mentality because the economy/unemployment is already there.

chocgirl

Other (state in post)

Devi wrote: »

yea but it wasn’t 50% of a wage though, it was more like 20%.

In fairness though there were no crèches for most back then. It was a family member/neighbour that used to take care of them. We just need to accept that we can’t live like we did 5 years ago, including a top notch crèche for the little darling. We need to go back to the eighties in our mentality because the economy/unemployment is already there.

I agree completely but childcare is a necessity, and for those who are not fortunate enough to have a family member who can do it at a reduced cost creches are a necessary part of life. There is a huge variation in creches and I think most people don't send their children to top notch creches as it is. There are very few top notch creches in fact.

Embracing the 80s mentality is essential now, definitely, but parents need to cease the mindless overindulgence of children with material possessions rather than scrimp on childcare.

Guy:Incognito

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

angelfire9 wrote: »

Only if they sort out some kind of childcare for people with kids
How can I go on a scheme and pay for childcare? I'd be out of pocket every week by over €150

Out of pocket of the money you get for free? What about the free training they'd be giving you? Or the job you got?


I'm on the dole and have kids btw.

angelfire9

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Out of pocket of the money you get for free? What about the free training they'd be giving you? Or the job you got?


I'm on the dole and have kids btw.

I have a degree and a professional qualification as well as numerous certs (ECDL, Microsoft Trainer and SAP courses)

I'd be interested in seeing what kind of course they'd send me on!

starviewadams

I'd doubt very many people would actually turn down a job in this day and age,or a place on a worthwhile training course.

Guy:Incognito

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

angelfire9 wrote: »

I have a degree and a professional qualification as well as numerous certs (ECDL, Microsoft Trainer and SAP courses)

I'd be interested in seeing what kind of course they'd send me on!

Your right, your clearly too smart to learn anything new.

Maybe a reading course to combat you missing half the threa title and dissmissing it out of hand. What about a job? Or will you only stop takign money and agree to work on your terms?

swordofislam

Other (state in post)

Where I live the unemployment rate has increased from 4% to 14% lifestyle choice my hairy arse.

saywhatyousee

the current rates for 18-22 year olds is 100 euro
for 22-25 it is 144 i hardly call that cosy to be fair

Devi

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

saywhatyousee wrote: »

the current rates for 18-22 year olds is 100 euro
for 22-25 it is 144 i hardly call that cosy to be fair

I know two 20 year olds (a couple) that live with their parents, never had a job, don’t do training and never been asked for proof that they have been looking for a job they get the full whack, 188 or whatever it is. (That 100 euro thing only applies to Dublin and other cities from my experience.) Nearly 400 quid between them, more deposable cash that most working couples with kids.

saywhatyousee

Devi wrote: »

(That 100 euro thing only applies to Dublin and other cities from my experience.).

I dont think that is true could'nt be

angelfire9

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Your right, your clearly too smart to learn anything new.

Maybe a reading course to combat you missing half the threa title and dissmissing it out of hand. What about a job? Or will you only stop takign money and agree to work on your terms?

If I have already stated if you'd read my posts instead of jumping down my throat that childcare would be an issue as I would have to pay for a childminder in order to take a course

Given that I am not "taking money" from social welfare for anything other than child benefit (i am not entitled to JSA due to my husband's salary) I think it is a tad unfair of you to jump to conclusions in that regard

Furthermore I have stated on NUMEROUS other threads that in order for it to be financially worthwhile for me to work I would need to earn enough to cover my costs of working i.e. petrol & childcare otherwise i HAVE to sit at home

Devi

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

saywhatyousee wrote: »

I dont think that is true could'nt be

Well as I said it’s only from my experience so I don’t know how widespread it is but both of them live in a smallish town and are getting away with it (and so is there family). Anybody I know in Dublin isn’t. And it’s not even a matter of them knowing the people in SW either or "looking after their own" because one of them is from Dublin originally.

Oh_Noes

I think each case should be looked at on a case-by-case basis, forcing someone to do a course that they've no interest in would be a waste of money. The interests and skills of the unemployed people in question should be sought when setting up courses in local training authorities.

I don't think think anyone should be "cut" without having their personal situation looked at, people may be suffering from mental health problems or have other family responsibilites that for whatever reason, they won't like to talk about.

So in summary, a much more efficient approach is needed in FÁS and the other training bodies, and a more thorough, rigorous assessment of the unemployed and their individual situations should be sought.

saywhatyousee

Devi wrote: »

Well as I said it’s only from my experience so I don’t know how widespread it is but both of them live in a smallish town and are getting away with it (and so is there family). Anybody I know in Dublin isn’t. And it’s not even a matter of them knowing the people in SW either or "looking after their own" because one of them is from Dublin originally.

Fair enough.I am not totally against the idea,I just have to feeling it is goin to be a massive fcuk up.There would be little or no point introducing it now most courses would be finishing up now,and there would be massive strain on the job market in the summer months.Might be an option once sep/oct comes but i would hold off till then

sdanseo

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

ÀBSOLUTELY, nobody should be turning down work in this climate. Anyone refusing a job that pays the minimum wage should be taken out and pelted with rotten fruit before being sent home with no dole.

Guy:Incognito

No, their dole should not be cut if they refuse work/training.

angelfire9 wrote: »

If I have already stated if you'd read my posts instead of jumping down my throat that childcare would be an issue as I would have to pay for a childminder in order to take a course

Given that I am not "taking money" from social welfare for anything other than child benefit (i am not entitled to JSA due to my husband's salary) I think it is a tad unfair of you to jump to conclusions in that regard

Furthermore I have stated on NUMEROUS other threads that in order for it to be financially worthwhile for me to work I would need to earn enough to cover my costs of working i.e. petrol & childcare otherwise i HAVE to sit at home

The thread doesnt apply to you so seeing as your not getting benefits.