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Joe Higgins Appreciation Thread
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Any proof for your claim that it goes to a community project?
Had a couple of lads in the ULA tell me it goes to the party itself (including a ULA supporter in this thread)
It appears I was a little misinformed on my own party
Some of it goes to the party but anything beyond the legal limit for political donations goes to various causes and campaign which ULA TD's support. Theres some information on Joe Higgins spending here. 0 -
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Nah, if you're going to make a claim then the onus is on you to back it up.Ehm. I've just given you the source. Contact the Laura Ashley workers. Why would you expect something like this to be published somewhere? Do you expect Google to meet all your needs? Like I said, ask the SP for the info.
Trying to fob this off and telling others to source your own claim is either lazy and/or disingenuous.
Ah but we're not talking about the expense accounts. We're discussing the basic salary for a TD which is what Higgins is claiming.If you think rugby clubs are on a par that with the disadvantaged and unemployed then there's not much point in continueing to debate with you and most FF's don't even do that. Not only do they pocket the entirety of their salary, they make some extremely dubious expenses claims.
http://thestory.ie/2010/06/02/td-expenses-2005-to-2008/
He's giving the money to what he deems to be worthy causes, the net cost to the taxpayer being the same
Once again, we're not talking about expense accounts here. We're talking about TD's salary which Joe is claiming, the same as everyone else, albeit he uses his differently.See above. I guarantee you the ULA are on the bottom rung in terms of expenses claims by TDs which are covered by the taxpayer. Also, the "filthy free market capitalist" wants the average low paid employee to be paid less and taxed more while Joe is campaigning for higher taxes on the wealthy elite.
The question is how many would remain in Ireland if we kicked up the tax rates to a level that would be needed to fund government expenditure, especially the rampant expansion that the ULA seek.Actually the top 300 on Ireland's rich list made over €6 Billlion profit in 2010. We could certainly start there.
You're making some bogus comparisons there: that other countries have high corporation taxes and lower unemployment which ignores the myriad of factors that contribute to employment such as indigenous industry. We're extremely reliant on FDI and are the Number one location for FDI jobsWe would also increase corporation Tax. I know you''ll most likely argue that this would result in further unemployment but this is myth pedaled by the right and the Irish Independent that is simply not true, since we still have the second highest unemployment in Europe and the countries with the top rate of corporation tax have the highest employment rate.
Scaring off one of the few sources of employment in Ireland during a recession is pretty silly.
Dell are moving on low skilled jobs, whereas the high skilled jobs in Dell remained. As for encouraging indigenous industry, good luck with it. It's something that the government has been trying since independence with poor results.Dell and other companies moved on regardless. The real problem is a lack of investment in indigenous industries. Putting all of our eggs in the foreign investment basket is the equivalent of putting a noose around our own necks and it should be extremely worrying to everyone in this country that we are not self sustainable. Why on earth are our farmers being paid NOT to grow produce? Why is our oil and gas being given away for free?
Our oil and gas isn't being given away for free. This is an extremely annoying myth. There's a 25-40% tax on our natural resource profits. Link
Uh huh, whack up the tax rate exorbitantly and see how many of them remain.Where will we get the money? Do you think everyone in the country is broke? Wake up. The top 1% of the country own over 30% of the country's wealth. We'd start there. They created this mess and they can solve it.
Do you honestly think that we can make €18bn a year shortfall by taxing the wealthy?
Nah, provided we show some cop on and encourage job creation we can still make it (government job creation is an area we'd agree on) to kickstart the multiplier effect. If we default, then we're royally screwed. Once again, where will we get the money to fund both our current system, as well as reversing cuts and bringing in even more government expenditure?On our current path, ee are going to default anyway. The damage has been done. The global economy as we know is finished. The EU single currency cannot continue in its current form. The mass movements in the muslim world are just the beginning and sooner or later this will spread to the West. It's already beginning to do so.
Supporting a pro-business environment doesn't mean supporting toxic bank bailouts. Yes businesses should be taxed and regulated, yes the banks should have been nationalised rather than bailed out, but neither should a businessman be penalised for taking a risk.The "cutting down of the business environment" that you speak of is merely about acquiring the profits which are currently skimmed off the top of private business and shoved into the pockets of the owners, or funneled into toxic banks, just like Quinn did with Anglo to the tune of 3 Billion.
If you support gyms, theatres and canteens being run by the university, I have no problem with this. However, these are run as private entitites. If they were to run as part of the universities, they would provide better services but be less efficient (as the university wouldn't have a profit motive)If you take our 3rd level colleges as an example, we have private companies proftieering from students with their ownership of canteens, printing facilities, theaters and sports fields. By taking ownership of these those profits could go back into the system and ease the burden on both students and the taxpayer.
To claim that this would significantly help our economy is fairly pushing it.
You have yet to show how you would fund the massive expenditure that the ULA propose. Once again, we are taking in far less each year than we spend with borrowing funding the difference. How do you propose we make up the difference beyond vague references to taxing the rich. Please provide some concrete examples of how you would fund the many many billions that would be needed to cover these costs. Sources would also be appreciated.What are these pet projects you speak of? I bet you can't provide any examples whatsoever. The truth is you have no idea what the money is spent on but your anti-socialist bias is pushing you to find something illegitimate. You won't find anything and unless you provide some evidence of wrong doing by JH in this thread then I suggest you save face by either apologising or disappearing.
Duffy already provided a link noting that he gave €27k to campaigns and organisations whereas the remainder of his salary is put at the disposal of the Socialist Party
I never said that Higgins is committing any wrongdoing, merely that the money is spent on the Socialist Party and other campaigns. You seem to think I'm accusing him of corruption. 0 -
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Nah, if you're going to make a claim then the onus is on you to back it up.
Trying to fob this off and telling others to source your own claim is either lazy and/or disingenuous.
Are you saying I lied about JH contributing to the Laura Ashley Workers? What you are arguing here is that EVERYTHING can be sourced on Google. It can't, and only an imbecile would suggest otherwise. If you're not willing to pick up the phone or take the time to wrote an email then I can't help you.Ah but we're not talking about the expense accounts. We're discussing the basic salary for a TD which is what Higgins is claiming.
He's giving the money to what he deems to be worthy causes, the net cost to the taxpayer being the same
Again you're contradicting yourself here. We are NOT just talking about salaries. The "net cost to the taxpayer" is definitely not the same when you take into account the fact that the ULA claim much lower expenses and contribute more to worthy causes than the rest of the DailOnce again, we're not talking about expense accounts here. We're talking about TD's salary which Joe is claiming, the same as everyone else, albeit he uses his differently.
If we're not talking about expense accounts then what the **** are you talking about the "expense to the taxpayer" for? Some TDs claimed over half a million in a 3 year period. In the same period Joe would receive around 100K in wages and claim minimal expenses if any.The question is how many would remain in Ireland if we kicked up the tax rates to a level that would be needed to fund government expenditure, especially the rampant expansion that the ULA seek.
Have you seen our current emigration figure? I would imagine if we stopped putting the burden of the economic crisis on the poorests in society such as students and minimum wage workers and started taxing wealthy elites properly then emigration would no longer be a problem.You're making some bogus comparisons there: that other countries have high corporation taxes and lower unemployment which ignores the myriad of factors that contribute to employment such as indigenous industry. We're extremely reliant on FDI and are the Number one location for FDI jobs Scaring off one of the few sources of employment in Ireland during a recession is pretty silly.
Bingo. See my previous response on investing in "indigenous wealth" as opposed to putting everything into foreign direct investment. How many other countries do you know give away their natural resources for a song like we do?
Who would we "scare off" and where would they go? Dell went to Poland briefly before moving to Taiwan even with the low corporate tax rate. If you want Irish people to work for <100€ a week to compete with the likes of Singapore, Taiwan and Malaysia then I think you have a problem because they wont, but the current government would love it if we would.Dell are moving on low skilled jobs, whereas the high skilled jobs in Dell remained. As for encouraging indigenous industry, good luck with it. It's something that the government has been trying since independence with poor results.
This is bull. As an IT graduate from Raheen in Limerick myself, with plenty of contacts with former Dell employees (many now on the dole) I can assure you Dell let go of a hell of a lot of highly qualified people. You can't sack 2,500 staff and expect them all to be uneducated. That is a ludicrous assumption.
We have a hell of a lot of highly skilled, educated and experienced people currently out of work. If you don't think we can't create indigenous wealth out of that then think harder. Why didn't we create an indigenous IT company from the workforce that Dell left behind?Our oil and gas isn't being given away for free. This is an extremely annoying myth. There's a 25-40% tax on our natural resource profits. Link
Shell write off billions in exploration costs against taxes on existing production. The state has earned **** all from shell thus far. There is also the matter of the indigenous fishing and tourism industry of Mayo being destroyed.
The oil and gas isn't being given away just yet, but when it is, the ordinary Irish citizen will then buy back Irish oil from a Norwegian company and pay tax on it.
You're also ignoring the fact that we would be the only country in the world with this over generous arrangement.
By the way 25-40% tax seems extraordinarily vague. Why is this figure not specific since the difference between 25% and 40% on such an asset is astronomical.Uh huh, whack up the tax rate exorbitantly and see how many of them remain.
Do you honestly think that we can make €18bn a year shortfall by taxing the wealthy?
One man (Quinn) was responsible for wasting 1/6th of that figure. Are you really naive enough to believe the money isn't out there? The money made in the boom wasn't set on fire. A serious chunk of it can be recovered from senior bondholders whom we continue to protect.Nah, provided we show some cop on and encourage job creation we can still make it (government job creation is an area we'd agree on) to kickstart the multiplier effect. If we default, then we're royally screwed. Once again, where will we get the money to fund both our current system, as well as reversing cuts and bringing in even more government expenditure?
It's not a question of "If" we default, it's a matter of "when". Like I said, how stupid would it be to sell of state assets, then default anyway and end up in a bigger hole.Supporting a pro-business environment doesn't mean supporting toxic bank bailouts. Yes businesses should be taxed and regulated, yes the banks should have been nationalised rather than bailed out, but neither should a businessman be penalised for taking a risk.
Are you joking? Of course it does. Who else were the biggest debtors to Anglo than private business? Businessmen SHOULD be penalised for taking a risk with their employees futures and they should not be given 250K a year walking around money by NAMA!If you support gyms, theatres and canteens being run by the university, I have no problem with this. However, these are run as private entitites. If they were to run as part of the universities, they would provide better services but be less efficient (as the university wouldn't have a profit motive) To claim that this would significantly help our economy is fairly pushing it.
The idea that a profit motive creates efficiency is one of the biggest fallacies the right loves to wave about willy-nilly. If you take our water supply as an example one could say that we didn't provide a very good service when our pipes froze last winter and that would be true. However, if you look at Nothern Ireland's Water supply which is semi state, they had much bigger problems and in Wales where the water supply is fully private the problem even was worse again.You have yet to show how you would fund the massive expenditure that the ULA propose. Once again, we are taking in far less each year than we spend with borrowing funding the difference. How do you propose we make up the difference beyond vague references to taxing the rich. Please provide some concrete examples of how you would fund the many many billions that would be needed to cover these costs. Sources would also be appreciated.
I have showed you many examples. If you don't accept that there is considerable elitist wealth to be taxed while we continue to protect senior bondholders and big business then there is no point in debating further.
Duffy already provided a link noting that he gave €27k to campaigns and organisations whereas the remainder of his salary is put at the disposal of the Socialist Party
Like I said the SP can only take 6K of Joe's salary. If you want to know where the rest goes ask them.I never said that Higgins is committing any wrongdoing/
I beg to differ. Look 3 inches above this reply and tell me you're not implying "wrongdoing" with regard to his wage.0 -
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oscarBravo wrote: »The banks have been nationalised. I haven't seen much sign of easier access to credit. If that's an example of Joe being right about everything he's ever said, carry on.
FYI, I am no Joe Higgins fan.
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No, I'm asking you to source your own claims. Making statements and urging other people to source your claims isn't debating.Are you saying I lied about JH contributing to the Laura Ashley Workers? What you are arguing here is that EVERYTHING can be sourced on Google. It can't, and only an imbecile would suggest otherwise. If you're not willing to pick up the phone or take the time to wrote an email then I can't help you.
If I was to say "Fine Gael have an awesome plan to end the recession which counters your claim. What's that? What's the plan? I'm not going to tell you, contact Fine Gael yourself" you'd view it as intellectual cowardice and rightly so.
Nah, I'm not. We're talking about salaries as that's what the ULA keep going on about (that their members take the average industrial wage). Unless the ULA are claiming expenses in order to donate them which is fraud.Again you're contradicting yourself here. We are NOT just talking about salaries. The "net cost to the taxpayer" is definitely not the same when you take into account the fact that the ULA claim much lower expenses and contribute more to worthy causes than the rest of the Dail
Also, the wonderfully subjective 'worthy causes' claim. My local FF councillor would doubtlessly view the local rugby club as a 'worthy cause'. Either way, the taxpayer is funding what he does with his personal cash.
Mainly as expense accounts aren't a constant as it depends what the TD is claiming.If we're not talking about expense accounts then what the **** are you talking about the "expense to the taxpayer" for? Some TDs claimed over half a million in a 3 year period. In the same period Joe would receive around 100K in wages and claim minimal expenses if any.
Out of interest, what are the ULA's expense claims? You keep going on about minimal expenses so I'd like to see your sources.
It's difficult enough to emigrate unless you have a skill. Countries like the USA, Australia and Canada are tough to get into unless you have a degree or a skill in demand. If you're a minimum wage worker you'll find it very tough to emigrate.Have you seen our current emigration figure? I would imagine if we stopped putting the burden of the economic crisis on the poorests in society such as students and minimum wage workers and started taxing wealthy elites properly then emigration would no longer be a problem.
But rail against the fat cats if it makes you feel better.
Ah yes, 'promote indigenous wealth'. Something which every political party claims to support and which none has been able to deliver on. How will we get this indigenous industry off the ground?Bingo. See my previous response on investing in "indigenous wealth" as opposed to putting everything into foreign direct investment. How many other countries do you know give away their natural resources for a song like we do?
There's not much point competing on unskilled labour as we're unable to compete on this level.Who would we "scare off" and where would they go? Dell went to Poland briefly before moving to Taiwan even with the low corporate tax rate. If you want Irish people to work for <100€ a week to compete with the likes of Singapore, Taiwan and Malaysia then I think you have a problem because they wont, but the current government would love it if we would.
Where would they go? Pretty much anywhere. It's no secret that France and Germany are pressuring us about the corporation tax based on the knowledge that it attracts companies here.
It was production unit which was moved whereas 1000 non-manufacturing Dell jobs remained behind. Likewise, see hereThis is bull. As an IT graduate from Raheen in Limerick myself, with plenty of contacts with former Dell employees (many now on the dole) I can assure you Dell let go of a hell of a lot of highly qualified people. You can't sack 2,500 staff and expect them all to be uneducated. That is a ludicrous assumption.
Ah yes, Ireland's famously well educated and skilled workforce. Sadly, this isn't the case anymore such as hereWe have a hell of a lot of highly skilled, educated and experienced people currently out of work. If you don't think we can't create indigenous wealth out of that then think harder. Why didn't we create an indigenous IT company from the workforce that Dell left behind?
here
or here
Sadly, the MNC don't agree with our claims of our highly-skilled and educated persons.
It's all very well to go on about our dependence on FDI, but as long as they're the ones creating jobs, that's where people will go. Even with job cuts, there was a net MNC job creation
Mainly as Shell isn't receiving the payoff from the fields yet. When they do, then the tax kicks in.Shell write off billions in exploration costs against taxes on existing production. The state has earned **** all from shell thus far. There is also the matter of the indigenous fishing and tourism industry of Mayo being destroyed.
Uh huh, source?The oil and gas isn't being given away just yet, but when it is, the ordinary Irish citizen will then buy back Irish oil from a Norwegian company and pay tax on it.
You're also ignoring the fact that we would be the only country in the world with this over generous arrangement.
Because the amount paid depends on the field. If you'd bothered reading the source I gave you, you'd see that the tax paid depends on the profitability of the field. 25% for a field with a profit ratio of less than 1.5, up to 40% for fields with a profit ratio of more than 4.5, with varying shades in between.By the way 25-40% tax seems extraordinarily vague. Why is this figure not specific since the difference between 25% and 40% on such an asset is astronomical.
The question is where has the money gone. We live in a globalised world and the money can end up anywhere depending on how it was spent or invested.One man (Quinn) was responsible for wasting 1/6th of that figure. Are you really naive enough to believe the money isn't out there? The money made in the boom wasn't set on fire. A serious chunk of it can be recovered from senior bondholders whom we continue to protect.
Even so, have you any solid proof that we can easily access this money (to the tune of multiple billions)?
You seem to think that default is pre-determined. It's not. If Ireland can stimulate the economy then our future looks a lot brighter. Fine Gael and Labour hope to do this by a job creation scheme.It's not a question of "If" we default, it's a matter of "when". Like I said, how stupid would it be to sell of state assets, then default anyway and end up in a bigger hole.
Defaulting now would be a disaster. If anything, it'd almost inevitably lead to massive spending cuts as we can no longer borrow on the bond markets.
No, it really, really doesn't. If anything, bailing out toxic banks is an anti-business environment as it leads to a crowding out effect and throwing billions of taxes down black holes.Are you joking? Of course it does. Who else were the biggest debtors to Anglo than private business? Businessmen SHOULD be penalised for taking a risk with their employees futures and they should not be given 250K a year walking around money by NAMA!
Nationalise the banks or let them go under while guaranteeing deposits (within reason) are decent alternatives. Bailing the banks out was lunacy.
You misunderstand me: efficiency isn't automatically a good thing. There are occasions where a service is too important to leave up to the market (such as water or healthcare) and where efficiency has too many negative side effects.The idea that a profit motive creates efficiency is one of the biggest fallacies the right loves to wave about willy-nilly. If you take our water supply as an example one could say that we didn't provide a very good service when our pipes froze last winter and that would be true. However, if you look at Nothern Ireland's Water supply which is semi state, they had much bigger problems and in Wales where the water supply is fully private the problem even was worse again.
"Tax the rich" and "promote indigenous industry" aren't answers, rather, they are vague sound-bites.I have showed you many examples. If you don't accept that there is considerable elitist wealth to be taxed while we continue to protect senior bondholders and big business then there is no point in debating further.
You need to show exactly where billions of euros will come from. Please be as specific as possible as you'll need to come up with funds to not only reverse all the cuts, but to further expand government spending at a time when our budget deficit and public debt are increasing ever higher.
Out of interest, do you know what a senior bondholder is? I often hear them being referred to by those who seem to think it means some sort of super-important-bondholder.
They also decide where the rest of his salary goes.Like I said the SP can only take 6K of Joe's salary. If you want to know where the rest goes ask them.
Where on earth am I implying wrongdoing?I beg to differ. Look 3 inches above this reply and tell me you're not implying "wrongdoing" with regard to his wage.
Funding projects and campaigns isn't noble but neither is it malfeasance. I just fail to see why Higgins is championed by the extreme-left on the matter when the cost to the taxpayer is the same.0 -
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