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Joe Higgins Appreciation Thread
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scathing remarks from an obviuos bertie-lover. joe was lampooned by FF cos he was the biggest single threat to their profiteering during the "boom" he had to be got rid of at all costs. the fact that varadker got his seat is irrevelant,as long as higgins was out FF couldnt care less if Dustin the turkey took his place,and as for Varadkers displays so far,Dustin might just do as well. Joe always said during the Euro election that he would contest a general election and appointed 3 people that would take his place,all voters done that,in fact the young man he has appointed has made more of an impression so far in Brussels than most of our consolation-prize gombeens have in years. for the record im not a Socialist party mmember or supporter but appreciate honesty and straight talking when i see it:P
Eh, no, he was not the biggest threat to FF. You know what is the biggest threat to FF is or was? A party that would get into power, so FG and LAB were much bigger threats. You are certainly away with the fairies if you believe a government considers a td who will never get into power, their biggest threat. Bit laughable.
Wow, slagging Varadkar and saying Dustin the Turkey is better. Well, guess what, Varadkar is in Government. Varadkar is in a party that has CREATED jobs. Higgins is in a party that has never created one single job. I doubt you are from my area, unemployment is quite high and more people here value job creation then getting a few laughs in the Dail.
The young man who took Joes European seat has made an impression in Europe then? He made such an impression, you fail to mention his name and I have not a clue who he is. Great impression :rolleyes:
Laugh at the idea you ain't a SP member or supporter. Then again, most of his support tends to come from people in areas not his own, blow-ins in other words.0 -
Only in Ireland would the one guy warning about what was going to happen and offering solutions be slagged off afterwards when he was proved right
Lol, yeah it is a pity every TD does not do what Joe does.
Banks bad, Government bad. Reduce taxes, no job cuts, free money to everyone, boo bad rich man, poor people good, money grows on trees.
I mean, how could it possibly fail?0 -
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Fair enough with all of this, but your original comment was ULA members have claimed a lot less in the Dail, but since they did not exist before this Dail, I simply pointed out this. You respond with all of that. You should simply rephrase that you think ULA will not claim as much in this Dail.When the next batch of expenses figures are published you will see for yourself. Looking at past figures FF and coalition independents generally claim expenses much high than the rest of the Dail. On a list of 220 published expenses by TDs for 2005 to 2008, Joe was 164th in terms of the size of his claim.
http://thestory.ie/2010/06/02/td-expenses-2005-to-2008/
There are countless cases of over-claiming from members of FG/FF/LB and the independents that supported the last few governements. However FG/LB seem to have tightened up on expenses in the lead up to the last election.
http://thestory.ie/2011/02/17/over-100-politicians-overclaim-expenses/
Lol, okay, I will quote a media organisation to which you have used to back up your point which was the source of my original point which you have scoffed at."Journalists have pointed out". Yes we can always rely on the right wing media in RTE and the Independent to water down problems for the government.
Between 2004 and 2008 emigration almost doubled from over 20K to over 40K people a year.
http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?ID=740
Last year it was over 65K. How about you try reading a slightly more reputable newspaper for a change? We now have the highest Emigration in the EU and twice the emigration of the second country, Lithuannia. If you don't think that's a problem then you're just another blind capitalist with his head int he clouds slowly leading the rest of us off the cliff.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0108/1224287020723.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0312/1224291980040.html?via=mr
Wow, look at that, no RTE or Independent, its the Irish Times who you use as a reputable site completely destroying your own point. The vast majority of people leaving Ireland are non-Irish and people are just scare-mongering. Embarrassing for you.
Eh no the last budget did not hit the most vulnerable the hardest. Back that up with actual figures or else it is simply waffle. The middle classes pay most in proportion, the wealthiest obviously pay the most in actual amounts of money even if it is a low tax rate, and until very recently a huge amount of lower paid people simply paid no or tiny amount of tax. Last years budget increased all brackets, but yes you are right, the increase in the top was not great, either was the increase at the bottom, again, the middle take the brunt.This is just neo-liberal spin. In the last budget the most vulnerable in society were hit the hardest, while the wealthy elites were left largely untouched. Brian Cowen started his term as leader with 13 times the minimum wage. He finished it with 14 times the minimum wage and what's his and Harney's pension now? In some cases high earners on over 250K were actually better off after the budget.
Lower paid workers with houses in negative equity, students, people with disabilities and the unemployed were asked to pay a much higher % of their income than the wealthy in the last budget. The people that caused the crisis were let off the hook and some property developers, as I mentioned earlier, were given 250K a year to "live-on".
Your other point makes no sense at all. Unemployed people or students don't pay income tax so how the hell were they paying a much higher % of their income then the wealthy? That makes zero sense. I am all for a good debate but that last point is terribly mistaken and can be ripped apart when you actually look at it, you don't even have to research it.0 -
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The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »Fair enough with all of this, but your original comment was ULA members have claimed a lot less in the Dail, but since they did not exist before this Dail, I simply pointed out this. You respond with all of that. You should simply rephrase that you think ULA will not claim as much in this Dail.
Lol, okay, I will quote a media organisation to which you have used to back up your point which was the source of my original point which you have scoffed at.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0312/1224291980040.html?via=mr
Wow, look at that, no RTE or Independent, its the Irish Times who you use as a reputable site completely destroying your own point. The vast majority of people leaving Ireland are non-Irish and people are just scare-mongering. Embarrassing for you.
Keep trying. This does not disprove my point.
Proportionately the number of Irish leaving our shores is rising in line with the same figures. How could you actually believe that "Irish" emigration is static while overall emigration has tripled?The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »Eh no the last budget did not hit the most vulnerable the hardest. Back that up with actual figures or else it is simply waffle.The middle classes pay most in proportion, the wealthiest obviously pay the most in actual amounts of money even if it is a low tax rate, and until very recently a huge amount of lower paid people simply paid no or tiny amount of tax. Last years budget increased all brackets, but yes you are right, the increase in the top was not great, either was the increase at the bottom, again, the middle take the brunt.
Clearly you were living under a rock for a while after the budget. Even right wing economists utterly condemned the budget for the same reasons that I've given.
Countless post budget programs on Irish Television gave a detailed analysis showing that as a proportion of overall income the poorest lost the most.
From the Guardian on the day of the budget release.
• Social welfare payments will be cut by 4%.
• Jobseekers’, carer’s and disability allowances will fall by €8 per week each
• Income tax bands and tax credits will be cut by 10%
• Child benefit will fall by €10 a month per child, or €20 per month for the third child.
• Income and health levies to be merged into a single social contribution charge payable on all income, called the Universal Social Charge
• New employees in the public sector will be paid 10% less than before.
• 25 tax breaks, including all property based relief, will be abolished by 2014.
• Petrol duty will go up by €0.04 per litre, and diesel by €0.02, from midnight.
• Corporation Tax remain unchanged at 12.5%
Also.....Student fees increased by 33%. Maintenance grant slashed. Many student forced to move 45K from college or face losing €4,000!
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2010/12/09/00012.asp
In this page it is noted that a mother of three on the minimum wage is down €2,600. Her income including benefits was €18,000. This a 14% reduction in income. If you can find a high earner with a % loss anywhere close to that I'd like to see it.
http://tinyurl.com/3dul4kfSee page 3 of this document on the revisions to social welfare payments and the impact on low income families.
Page 7 highlights the impact of the ridiculous new "Universal Social Charge".
Page 9 highlights the impact on child benefit which is not means tested against income
Finally as was mentioned already. Increases in VAT and allother forms of taxation that are not linked to income clearly hi the poorest hardest.The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »Your other point makes no sense at all. Unemployed people or students don't pay income tax so how the hell were they paying a much higher % of their income then the wealthy? That makes zero sense. I am all for a good debate but that last point is terribly mistaken and can be ripped apart when you actually look at it, you don't even have to research it.
Err unemployed people recieve an income. They lost 4% on it. They are alsoo hit hardest by the non means tested taxation which I mentioned already.
Students from families on low incomes receive a grant. The thresholds were dramatically reduced. Some students lost 66% of their grant. As I mentioned already, fees went up 33%. Again students pay VAT and other taxed like everyone else and are hit hardest as a proportion of their income when it goes up.
Students that work tend to rely on the minimum wage. That went down by €1 an hour. Quite a big % loss there.0 -
Then don't bring up claims if you're unable to source them.No this is not what you're doing. You're asking me to provide a source for you "on the internet". This is simply not always possible. If you can't understand that then there's nothing more to say on the subject.
I have proof that Fine Gael will solve unemployment and make us the richest country in the world. What's that? You want proof? It's not available on the internet but I still expect you to believe my claims. Obviously.
Yes, TD's pay is taxpayer money. Expenses are too but this is a variable as it differs from TD to TD and year to year. By contrast, salary is a constant (unless altered during their term)Look at your post on page 3. It was you that mentioned "taxpayer money" and that's what I was responding to. Now you are sidestepping the issue that you raised yourself.
Indeed but which campaigns does the Socialist Party fund? Either way it's taxpayer money being used by a public representative to fund private entities.I answered this already. You think Rugby clubs need money just as much as the unemployed and poorest of society. We get it.
Right so you *believe* they'll be lower based purely on Joe's previous record.I don't believe they're published yet as we're too early into the current term, but Joe Higgins' from 2005 to 2008 are available and I published the link earlier. He was 164th on a list of 220 TDs published expenses. He was also not included in the list of over 100 TDs/MEPs that over claimed. This link is referenced in the same post I believe.
Why then, were going on so confidently about the ULA having lower expenses (to the point of guaranteeing it)Again this has all been answered already. There are plenty of highly skilled people currently out of work and our emigration has tripled in 7 years. If you think you can't get a job in another country, even without skills then I dare say you've never been in that position. Just look at how many Irish are working sometimes two or three low paid jobs illegally in the US.
Yup, that's the problem with a recession. Even the highly skilled can be out of work. I never claimed otherwise, merely that it is the highly skilled who will be the main emigrants (given their skills are in demand abroad)
It's certainly possible to find work in other countries without skills but good look finding it. Check out the points system for places like New Zealand or Australia and see how far you get with jobs like barman and waitress.
Also, you're making some fairly sweeping statements about me. My family emigrated out of Ireland when I was 6 and I've been everywhere from Scotland to Belgium to find work when I needed cash. But of course, anyone who disagrees with you must be in a sheltered little bubble.
These funds are also coming from foreign institutions like the ECB and IMF, good look trying to use this money in another manner, especially as we're still multiple billions in the hole. How do you propose to maintain the revenue difference while we're waiting for the job creation to kick in, seeing as the bond markets will almost certainly not touch us?Again this has been answered. The funds we're currently shipping off to foreign debts can be used to invest in job creation. I'm assuming FG's forthcoming jobs budget will involve some form of investment.
Your argument relies on the notion that throwing money at something leads to results. Check out Japan's steel industry which is heavily subsidised and yet still runs up government deficits in the process.
Have you any sources for the extent of these skilled job losses? Doubtless, skilled persons would lose jobs too but the sources show that it is mainly manafacturing staff who lost their jobs (non-manfacturing staff remaining behind)I know several technicians with IT degrees that lost their jobs in Dell. Many skilled people in Dell were on short term contracts. Sometimes these ran back to back and other times they were allowed to run out on the basis that they would be taken back on another 6-12 month contract in the near future. Eventually more often than not these people were not offered new contracts. Lots of companies in the Shannon Region followed the same policy, where a handful of workers were let go at a time rather than all at once.
Yes but Dell didn't fire these people, rather, it was a knock on effect. Terrible yes, but Dell's obligations are to its employees, not to suppliers.There's also the not-so-small matter of the large number of jobs in other companies which benefited from DELL's business in the region. Plenty of skilled workers there too.
Flextronics was just one such company which was a major supplier of DELL. The company closed completely following the job losses in Dell.
Of course it does, you were going on about Ireland's skilled and educated workforce!This does nothing for your argument. There are more skilled workers currently unemployed than in the history of the state. Much more now than even in the 80s when we had 18% unemployment.
Probably as we now presumably have far more skilled and educated workers than ever before. As unemployment rises, the skilled workers would be equally hit (IIRC, we have one of the highest number of graduates in the EU)
Woah, hyperbole alert! I pointed out grade inflation and the quality of teaching as evidenced by Intel and Google's concerns. Nothing to do with our people being unskilled or stupid. Merely that they're not living up to the claims of our highly skilled and educated workforce.Irish Nurses are being forced to emigrate because they can't get work here. Are you saying they are unskilled? Graduates across all sectors are facing long periods on the dole. Do you think they're all stupid and got their degrees given to them for nothing. You're completely detached from reality.
I provide sources on grade inflation and doubts over our education system (both at secondary and tertiary levels) and your response is what you are certain of?Irish Graduates are smart. I have no doubts about that. I have an IT qualification and it was hard work. It got me fives years employment as a network administrator and I am very well qualified. I decided to return to college to to do a BA and again it is tough going with many students dropping out because they don't make the grade. Qualifications are not given to idiots. That only happens in FAS. I'm currently on Erasmus in an internation private college with students of varying nationalities and I'm certain that, despite what your references say, Irish people are better educated than most of our European counterparts, but I think that is likely to change in a negative way in the near future.
Feel free to disprove the Irish Times with something beyond your own anecdoctes.
It's a nice idea to have better indigenous industry: I doubt you'll find a single politician who says differently but the question is how we get it. It's not something that hasn't been tried before.Yeah, "It's all very well to go on about" indigenous wealth because its very bloody important to be self sustainable, especially in the current global economic circumstance. We are not, and are we giving more and more of what own away to private companies year by year. Private business is effectively running our government and dictating our economic policy. That's a very serious problem.
FDI began to decline in 2001. The government had no response to this and instead of creating indigenous wealth, the obvious solution, FF in collusion with the banks and property developers created the housing bubble. I would have thought you'd have connected the dots on this by now.
Your argument is that we can throw money at creating II while simultaneously reversing public service cuts, welfare cuts and dramatically expanding government expenditure. While defaulting. Not only will you have to make up the €18bn or so shortfall in our tax/revenue (assuming that tax rates remain constant) but will have to come up with multiple other billions.
You keep going on about 'promoting II' without explaining how it will be done beyond throwing money at it.
You quote the Daily Mail while urging others to use unbiased news sources?http://colmrapple.com/?p=127
"Even the Government, in an official document, describes those terms as “amongst the most attractive in the world”. "
Bertie Ahern reduced Shell's tax rate from 50% to 25%. I believe the mean, globally on such resources is 68%.
Ah well. Would be very interested in seeing which "official document" he's referring to.
You've used this phrase 8 times in this post (including variants) without ever showing *where* you've answered them.Answered several times over. You're just trolling now.
Yes, we can given that we can renegotiate the terms as well as encourage economic growth to raise revenue. We cannot do this if our economy is crippled by massive spending increases while unable to borrow on the bond markets.Again, already answered. We are not and cannot meet the IMF targets. Austerity does not work. What other desitanation could we possibly be heading for other than some form of default.
It doesn't matter that defaulting now is a disaster, because defaulting later after we've sold off state assets and ripped the heart out of basic human rights of the low paid, students and disabilities would be much much worse.
This is the same argument that was used to justify the bank guarantee. Anglo was too big a bank to guarantee, and the IMF deal to big to pay off. It's that simple.
Yeah, I'm no fan of Fine Gael.Finally something we agree on, but Fine Gael's long term strategy is to put the banks back in the hands of private business so that the vicious circle can begin once more.
You didn't answer beyond the two vague statements I just outlined. I ask for policy and you give me two soundbites.Answered many times over. Of course it's going to sound vague if you paraphrase to suit your own argument.
Nono, I didn't ask you who the senior bondholders are (or at least, who you believe they are, keep in mind there are also a lot of credit unions there)I believe most of them are German, French and British Banks and Private Institutions, which would add credence to the idea that debt creation is the new imperialism.
The fact that they are largely anonymous people/entities is proof enough that Irish people should not be forced to pay them off.
I asked you WHAT a senior bondholder is.
So because I compared him to FF, I must be accusing him of wrongdoing.Why do you keep asking questions I've already answered?
"he's happy to take the same pay as them to fund his pet projects."
You were comparing him to FF scum here. How does that NOT imply wrongdoing?
Hey, Joe Higgins breaths air, the same way as FF TDs do.
Better call the ULA legal team as I just accused him of wrongdoing there (by your logic anyway)Again, as I have answered. He does NOT cost the taxpayer the same, and you've just contradicted your earlier statement that you were talking specifically about salary rather than the total cost to the taxpayer.
A charitable donation to a group that was wrongfully made redundant can neither be described as a "project" or a "campaign". Get real.
He does in terms of salary as this is what every TD receives. The expenses are variables so aren't really relevent here as then he has to compared to every single TD which
Finally, you answer a lot of questions with "already been answered" without stating where. The fact I'm still asking shows that you havn't answered them satisfactorily. Of course, you could easily prove me wrong by linking to exactly where you've answered them (if you have).0 -
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Then don't bring up claims if you're unable to source them.
I have proof that Fine Gael will solve unemployment and make us the richest country in the world. What's that? You want proof? It's not available on the internet but I still expect you to believe my claims. Obviously.
Yes, TD's pay is taxpayer money. Expenses are too but this is a variable as it differs from TD to TD and year to year. By contrast, salary is a constant (unless altered during their term)
Indeed but which campaigns does the Socialist Party fund? Either way it's taxpayer money being used by a public representative to fund private entities.
Right so you *believe* they'll be lower based purely on Joe's previous record.
Why then, were going on so confidently about the ULA having lower expenses (to the point of guaranteeing it)
Yup, that's the problem with a recession. Even the highly skilled can be out of work. I never claimed otherwise, merely that it is the highly skilled who will be the main emigrants (given their skills are in demand abroad)
It's certainly possible to find work in other countries without skills but good look finding it. Check out the points system for places like New Zealand or Australia and see how far you get with jobs like barman and waitress.
Also, you're making some fairly sweeping statements about me. My family emigrated out of Ireland when I was 6 and I've been everywhere from Scotland to Belgium to find work when I needed cash. But of course, anyone who disagrees with you must be in a sheltered little bubble.
These funds are also coming from foreign institutions like the ECB and IMF, good look trying to use this money in another manner, especially as we're still multiple billions in the hole. How do you propose to maintain the revenue difference while we're waiting for the job creation to kick in, seeing as the bond markets will almost certainly not touch us?
Your argument relies on the notion that throwing money at something leads to results. Check out Japan's steel industry which is heavily subsidised and yet still runs up government deficits in the process.
Have you any sources for the extent of these skilled job losses? Doubtless, skilled persons would lose jobs too but the sources show that it is mainly manafacturing staff who lost their jobs (non-manfacturing staff remaining behind)
Yes but Dell didn't fire these people, rather, it was a knock on effect. Terrible yes, but Dell's obligations are to its employees, not to suppliers.
Of course it does, you were going on about Ireland's skilled and educated workforce!
Probably as we now presumably have far more skilled and educated workers than ever before. As unemployment rises, the skilled workers would be equally hit (IIRC, we have one of the highest number of graduates in the EU)
Woah, hyperbole alert! I pointed out grade inflation and the quality of teaching as evidenced by Intel and Google's concerns. Nothing to do with our people being unskilled or stupid. Merely that they're not living up to the claims of our highly skilled and educated workforce.
I provide sources on grade inflation and doubts over our education system (both at secondary and tertiary levels) and your response is what you are certain of?
Feel free to disprove the Irish Times with something beyond your own anecdoctes.
It's a nice idea to have better indigenous industry: I doubt you'll find a single politician who says differently but the question is how we get it. It's not something that hasn't been tried before.
Your argument is that we can throw money at creating II while simultaneously reversing public service cuts, welfare cuts and dramatically expanding government expenditure. While defaulting. Not only will you have to make up the €18bn or so shortfall in our tax/revenue (assuming that tax rates remain constant) but will have to come up with multiple other billions.
You keep going on about 'promoting II' without explaining how it will be done beyond throwing money at it.
You quote the Daily Mail while urging others to use unbiased news sources?
Ah well. Would be very interested in seeing which "official document" he's referring to.
You've used this phrase 8 times in this post (including variants) without ever showing *where* you've answered them.
Yes, we can given that we can renegotiate the terms as well as encourage economic growth to raise revenue. We cannot do this if our economy is crippled by massive spending increases while unable to borrow on the bond markets.
Yeah, I'm no fan of Fine Gael.
You didn't answer beyond the two vague statements I just outlined. I ask for policy and you give me two soundbites.
Nono, I didn't ask you who the senior bondholders are (or at least, who you believe they are, keep in mind there are also a lot of credit unions there)
I asked you WHAT a senior bondholder is.
So because I compared him to FF, I must be accusing him of wrongdoing.
Hey, Joe Higgins breaths air, the same way as FF TDs do.
Better call the ULA legal team as I just accused him of wrongdoing there (by your logic anyway)
He does in terms of salary as this is what every TD receives. The expenses are variables so aren't really relevent here as then he has to compared to every single TD which
Finally, you answer a lot of questions with "already been answered" without stating where. The fact I'm still asking shows that you havn't answered them satisfactorily. Of course, you could easily prove me wrong by linking to exactly where you've answered them (if you have).
80% of this is just a repeat of things you've already said but in a slightly different way and the rest amounts to blatant trolling, such asking for references I've already given you, ignoring answers I've already given and misquoting me.
You haven't brought any new evidence to the table with regard to questioning Joe Higgins' character so if you want this debate to continue then I suggest you get back on topic and start there.0 -
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