Chip on my shoulder? Third level graduates.

Cavehill Red · 22-04-2011 07:33AM

There are a lot more people going to 3rd level than there used to be, and a lot more degree courses, and even more 3rd level institutions than there ever used to be.

Even my simple maths ability can derive from those facts that there are plenty of dip****s going to college these days, University of Carlow or Terminfeckin I. T. or wherever, and coming out with bits of paper marked 'Cultural Studies' or 'Local Studies' 2.2 degree after three years spent drinking and wearing traffic cones on their heads.

A degree in itself means very little without knowing what degree it is and where it was earned. I'd expect more by way of intellectual capacity from someone with a 1st in Engineering from Trinity than I would someone with a pass degree in Women's Studies or Ethnic Studies from Ahascragh technical college.

Plenty of my mates are tradespeople without degrees and are some of the smartest people I know. The MOST intelligent people I know are those with a trade AND a degree (never short of a well-paying job, those lot.)

There are some things that didn't used to be graduate subjects, like nursing or journalism, that are still effectively learnt on the job, and I don't see what making them into degrees added, other than thousands of euro worth of student debt. They were and are trades.

I foresee a day when brickies will need a degree in laying brick. It's part of the infantilisation of society really. An extended adolescence.

Anyone with a titter of wit (be they graduate or not) should be able to assess an individual's intelligence on their own merit, and should also be able to tell the difference in how different degrees require different levels of academic rigour.

craggles · 22-04-2011 09:43AM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Its like everything. If you put the work in you'll get the results. Maybe engineering not so much as you need a certain type of brain to do engineering courses in the first place.

That's fair enough but you can't imply that subjects like Chemistry, Theoretical Physics etc are easy in any sense at all.

craggles · 22-04-2011 09:45AM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Even my simple maths ability can derive from those facts that there are plenty of dip****s going to college these days, University of Carlow or Terminfeckin I. T. or wherever, and coming out with bits of paper marked 'Cultural Studies' or 'Local Studies' 2.2 degree after three years spent drinking and wearing traffic cones on their heads.

Alright I laughed, too true.

gosuckonalemon · 22-04-2011 09:54AM

couldntthink wrote: »

Why do so many people with a third level education think they're better/smarter/socially superior than people who don't have one.

Because they are.

couldntthink wrote: »

It really pisses me off. Just because you've gone through third level education doesn't make you any more intelligent or upper class.

It most certainly does.

couldntthink wrote: »

I was accepted to NUIG and GMIT etc, had a good leaving cert, and even did an engineering course for a while. Wasn't for me, dropped out and did a trade instead. I now enjoy my work, earn good money, and I am very nearly my own boss, all within 2 years of finishing. I have travelled all over the world and never had trouble getting work.

Congratulations!

couldntthink wrote: »

However I still notice a certain attitude from people who have a degree or a cert or whatever. They sometimes talk to you like they're somehow better than you.

They are.

couldntthink wrote: »

I consider myself to be broad minded, well read, and quite knowledgable on a lot of things. I know a lot of graduates who are one step short of a certified clown who make me wonder how the hell did they make it through the day, nevermind college.

You don't give off that impression from your post!

Feeona · 22-04-2011 10:52AM

I remember living with an Irish girl in Australia who had a huge chip on her shoulder about other people having degrees. She talked about it all the time, she used to make sly digs whenever possible. It all came to a head one night when my friend who I'd travelled over with asked chip girl did she want anything from the shop. Chip girl gave her a big list and ended with 'Now can you remember that seeing as you're so blonde?'. My friend had had enough of her sly digs at this stage and said 'Who's the one here with the degree?' Chip girl never gave her hassle after that.

It looks like her belief that people with degrees think they're better than her was right after all but ironically it was down to her attitude rather than the fact that she didn't have a degree.

craggles · 22-04-2011 11:07AM

Does this mean people with PhD's are better than ****ing everyone else?

Cavehill Red · 22-04-2011 11:23AM

craggles wrote: »

Does this mean people with PhD's are better than ****ing everyone else?

That's DOCTOR 'Better than everyone else' to you.

panda100 · 22-04-2011 12:01PM

Completely agree with everything Poor Crathur(luv the name!) is saying.

I studied medicine in UCD, dropped out after 4 and a half years of the study. It wasn't challenging for me in any way, and was just learning huge lists off and having to remember different symptoms and different diseases.
There was plenty of thick people in my class, who I wouldn't class at all as intelligent. They just had very good memories and were 100% dedicated and focussed.

Modern education is not about intelligence and showing originality, ingenuity and creativity. It completely robs you of your ability to think for yourself.

It pisses me off how qualification obsessed our society is.

Poor Craythur · 22-04-2011 12:37PM

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

I'm going into 4th year (science NUIG) and I'm pretty much hearing the same thing..... that 3rd year is much worse than 4th year, god I hope so!!!

pragmatic1 wrote: »

I had the opposite experience. Actually enjoyed third year and found the subjects interesting. I'll never forget the last few months of fourth year. Nearly put me off science.

Well, on my course we specialised in third year, so that year was very very full on, learning all the necessary but sometimes dull material. By fourth year we had most of the theory done so it was mostly just essays and the dissertation.

Poor Craythur · 22-04-2011 12:40PM

kowloon wrote: »

I'd prefer to see people do what they want and be good at it. It's a shame to see someone with the natural skill to become a master cabinetmaker ending up doing a degree that's meaningless to them and ending up in an equally pointless career because the latter path is seen as more prestigious.

Yes, the upper-class writer Evelyn Waugh was also a cabinet maker.

Since medicine has been mentioned, how many people end up doing it solely because it's a high points course and not because they're suited to being a doctor?

I often wonder this too. A girl I was in school with got an excellent LC but everyone was shocked when she did Arts in Galway. She wanted to do Irish, so why not?

22-04-2011 12:41PM

couldntthink wrote: »

I was accepted to NUIG and GMIT etc, had a good leaving cert, and even did an engineering course for a while. Wasn't for me, dropped out and did a trade instead. I now enjoy my work, earn good money, and I am very nearly my own boss, all within 2 years of finishing. I have travelled all over the world and never had trouble getting work.

However I still notice a certain attitude from people who have a degree or a cert or whatever. They sometimes talk to you like they're somehow better than you.

Many third level qualified folk reckon folk with trades are thick. Many folks with trades reckon 3rd level qualified folk are impractical nerds who know sfa about how stuff actually works.

Mongs in all walks of life.

Poor Craythur · 22-04-2011 12:46PM

Well, I have a very good degree in a hard science subject from a good uni, but all I want to do now is something creative and practical.

I realised less than a year after finishing my degree whilst in my hard won graduate job that science was not for me at all.

Chuck Stone · 22-04-2011 12:51PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

a lack of a university education often showed a lack of ambition or a lower intellect. Of course there are exceptions (like yourself) but generally this holds true and its where the prejudice stems from

This post is full of prejudice and shows a distinct lack of 'intelligence' on the part of its author.

:rolleyes:

22-04-2011 12:56PM

hinault wrote: »

Third level education?

I agree with the OP to the extent that grade inflation and the explosion in the number of third level places have both combined to serve this country badly.
This country has been fooling itself for the past 10-15 years.

Give me a person who has passed professional exams any day.

I have to admit professional exams are far harder than university ones; even if the material is the same, the exams themselves are more difficult and don't conform to the 'same as the last few years' kind.

Uni was a bit too simple, I should not have got a 2-1 in my undergrad (thoroughly deserved my msc result though).

Tigger · 22-04-2011 12:59PM

craggles wrote: »

That's fair enough but you can't imply that subjects like Chemistry, Theoretical Physics etc are easy in any sense at all.

Chmistry is easy enough to get a degree in if you have a mind like mine. I'd find it really hard to study a language.

Some people are better at some things than other people.

22-04-2011 01:01PM

craggles wrote: »

That's fair enough but you can't imply that subjects like Chemistry, Theoretical Physics etc are easy in any sense at all.

I can :pac:

Poor Craythur · 22-04-2011 01:01PM

bluewolf wrote: »

Uni was a bit too simple, I should not have got a 2-1 in my undergrad (thoroughly deserved my msc result though).

I'm not trying to put myself down here but no way did I deserve my II-1 either. I scraped into that grade classification whilst others worked really hard for their high II-1s, and are much more knowledgeable than me on the subject. I just got very very lucky. I was one more bad question away from a II-2. Some friends were visibly surprised that I got a II-1 and I don't blame them!

LAVADUDE · 22-04-2011 01:06PM

University is piss easy (for most courses anyway)
I did NO extra study and crammed in the final week before the exams and do you know what I got from it:

2 university scholarships
Finishing in the top 5 in my years of over 350 people
Awards from two prestigious companies
and a first class Honours

and if you ask me if I deserve them, HELL NO, I don't but they were given to me so why not

University these days is the place where fools go to get a degree, so they become more dangerous fools who can quote Voltaire or what ever philosopher they want to back up their retarded reasoning

Kess73 · 22-04-2011 01:13PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

When a graduate says something stupid people find it surprising as it requires an above average degree of intelligence to complete a university education.

:D:D:D

Would say that it is more down to aptitude and the abilty to recall learned knowledge in exams.

Some people who complete a university eductaion are of above average intelligence, just as some would be or average intelligence and in some cases below average.

flash1080 · 22-04-2011 01:16PM

Poor Craythur wrote: »

People just think it's harder because it's higher points. It's only higher points because it's a very in-demand course.

It's incredible the amount of college-educated eejits that think otherwise, incapable of grasping the simple concept of supply and demand.

Poor Craythur · 22-04-2011 01:25PM

flash1080 wrote: »

It's incredible the amount of college-educated eejits that think otherwise, incapable of grasping the simple concept of supply and demand.

I was blue in the face arguing with my Ph.D. candidate housemate about this one night. She said colleges "set" the points for course, I tried to explain that it was just down to supply and demand. She may have a point though in that college can somewhat control points for a course by decreasing the number of places available.

parker kent · 22-04-2011 01:37PM

couldntthink wrote: »

However I still notice a certain attitude from people who have a degree or a cert or whatever.

Cert? Sheesh, you need at the very least a masters to talk to me :pac:

Seriously though, I get on better with people who display the thought processes and traits associated with third level education. Not everybody who goes to University displays these traits though and many who have not gone do have them. I like people who have reasoned/balanced thoughts and have an appreciation for learning.

parker kent · 22-04-2011 01:56PM

Poor Craythur wrote: »

I was blue in the face arguing with my Ph.D. candidate housemate about this one night. She said colleges "set" the points for course, I tried to explain that it was just down to supply and demand. She may have a point though in that college can somewhat control points for a course by decreasing the number of places available.

Try working at the student desk in UCD and see how you deal with those same eejits. Despite what some thought, I was not personally deciding the points for various courses nor could I "have a word" with anybody either!

niallers1 · 22-04-2011 02:18PM

I work with people who have degrees and who don't (I happen to have one)
It's a generalisation but In my opinion, the people without degrees could buy and sell the people with degrees.

I think it may stem from them feeling that they need to prove themselves that bit more.

I've seen plenty of good people being discounted and passed over or not even given an opportunity becuase they don't have a degree..

The OP is right, some people and alot of HR people who are the gatekeepers to jobs can be snobby/snotty and look down at people without degrees.(more fool them) .It's sad but true. But then again maybe people who have this attitude are just deeply unhappy with themselves and their own lives..

Seloth · 22-04-2011 02:47PM

Op I'm in my first year of a degree in a poltical fiedl,Now while I wouldnt say I'm more intelligent than other people I would say I'm more informed.

Like I was pretty into Politics before I went to Uni but the amount I learned so far is astounding.Its not hard stuff to learn but because third level students set out to learn these stuff they in general know more about their field than others.

I'm not claim to be more intelligent than anyyone nor having a better idea of politics than others,but for the most case I do know more than others who havent studied the field or do not have a deep interest in it.

Like I do have somewhat of an interest and opinion in art,but someone who has a degree in art history or studies will hjave far more knowledge on the topic than myself.It dosent make that person any more or less intelligent than me,it just makes them more informed.To claim your more intelligent as you got high points in your leaving cert or are doing a certain course is just ignorant.

I have a friend who has stated she is more intelligent than me as shee got 500 points in her lc and I got 360.Yet this same girl lacks basic knowledge on most topics,has little or no creativity and couldn't solve a problem as basic as putting a battery into a remote(Ok that may be a bit extreme but you get the picture).

So to come to a conclusion or a TL;DR People with degree are more informed,not more or less intelligent.

pkeno · 22-04-2011 02:59PM

I've spent more years than I'd like to think of in third level education and am currently doing a PhD.

I'd never mention it though unless directly asked. It nearly always ends in either:

1) Me being slagged for doing physics or going to Trinity

or

2) Being embarrassed as my intellect is totally over exaggerated by whomever is talking to me.

I have no delusions about being a genius or anything of that sort. I happen to be able to handle a bit of maths. Give me an essay about my thoughts on philosophy, a critique on a piece of prose etc and I'd most likely return a blank page.

I have a few friends who didn't go to university as well as my own Dad who I'd consider more intelligent than me.

Judging somebody by the amount of letters after their name or whatever is plain dumb.

Buceph · 22-04-2011 03:04PM

Isn't there that old commentary.

A guy with a degree knows a little bit about something.
A guy with a masters knows more about a little bit.
A guy with PhD knows everything about nothing.

Seloth · 22-04-2011 03:06PM

Buceph wrote: »

.
A guy with PhD knows everything about nothing.

Hah thats actually so true :pac:.I genuinely LOL'ed as it reminded me of hearing recently of a person whos doing their PhD on Twitter :pac:

baby and crumble · 22-04-2011 03:13PM

I actually have this theory, and it's something I've noticed about myself.

I have a degree, h.dip, masters and i'm in the final (hopefully) year of a phd.

None of this means I have much cop on or common sense. My levels of those things have gone waaaaaaaaaay down since I started in 3rd level. I think because you start using bits of your brain most people use for sensible things to understand things that wont really help you anywhere but college, like theories and all that crap. Doing lots of college stuff doesn't mean I'm more intelligent than anyone, it just means I'm determined and find it difficult to cope in the real world!!

Genuinely. I can explain to people the problems with the medical model of disability and why social role valorisation is a load of old cobblers, but I can't wire a plug. Or drive. Or understand how fridges work.

So you know, it takes all sorts to make the word go round. I am genuinely in awe of people who use their hands to build or fix things, because if you give me a hammer I will usually hit myself with it.

My Mum had a saying that I kind of live by. Imagine you not doing your job for a month, what would happen? Now, imagine if all the bin men didn't work for a month. So whose job is more important?

Wise woman, my Mum.

Agricola · 22-04-2011 03:18PM

Id definitely agree that a third level degree doesnt necessarily equate to natural intelligence. In my experience it equates to dedication.
I got a 1:1 in computer science and I know that the other people in my class who got the same or a 2:1 grafted hard and put in huge hours both in project work and study. Its was much more to do with that, than any genius on our part.
Degrees have devalued hugely in the last 15 years anyway. With the removal of fees and the boom in the economy, nearly everyone had a chance to get a degree. Thats a good thing but it just means they arent as prestigious as they were.

Chip on my shoulder? Third level graduates.

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