The thread formally titled: We are the new South America

strobe · 21-04-2011 01:36AM

squod wrote: »

Gonna start a right wing group with a view to recruiting impressionable young men. It's gonna be the next big thing for sure. I'll have to think up a name.........

How about... Christianity? :pac:

andrew · 21-04-2011 01:41AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Because they are the resources of this country and therefore belong to the people of this country to reap the benefits, the majority of them do turn a profit

I can see where you're coming from regarding natural resources such as Coillte, so I won't argue that (though I don't really see how I 'own' Irish forests just because I happened to be born here).

Anyway, what about non resource based enterprises, such as Aer Lingus, The National Stud, ESB, and Bord Gais; why should the government own them? Even if they do make a profit, that profit accrues to me only through it's contribution toward government expenditure. If these firms were private, and subject to the incentives of private firms to lower costs (and had the ability of private firms to lower costs), then as consumers we could all benefit from lower prices and better services.

Craebear · 21-04-2011 01:49AM

Ah sher it will be grand, I look forward to voting in Fianna Fail at the next election.

southsiderosie · 21-04-2011 02:09AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Because we are not the generations that went before us, we are educated, driven and have dreams and aspirations. Over 100 years ago the people said enough is enough and we had the 1913 Lockout then the Easter Rising, with more austerity measures coming ahead, the people again will voice their anger, this is happening already with the unions last week

I think you are being very, very optimistic. When labor takes to the streets today, it is to protect the status quo, not to make broader social changes; in their own way, the unions benefited as much from the old system as other special interest groups like the banks and developers. But now they don't have Bertie and the government is broke, yet they don't have the capacity or imagination to affect real, transformational social and political change.

And taking a step back, when has Irish labor ever had a big victory that truly changed the course of policy-making and/or shifted the political center of gravity to the left?

I would be pleasantly surprised if the unions emerged as a credible force for systemic political and social change, but I doubt that will happen.

Krusader · 21-04-2011 09:17AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think you are being very, very optimistic. When labor takes to the streets today, it is to protect the status quo, not to make broader social changes; in their own way, the unions benefited as much from the old system as other special interest groups like the banks and developers. But now they don't have Bertie and the government is broke, yet they don't have the capacity or imagination to affect real, transformational social and political change.

And taking a step back, when has Irish labor ever had a big victory that truly changed the course of policy-making and/or shifted the political center of gravity to the left?

I would be pleasantly surprised if the unions emerged as a credible force for systemic political and social change, but I doubt that will happen.

I'm just using that as an example, the fact is the change will come on by extremists and the middle class, action will be started by the extremists and the middle class will follow into action.

The public service here will strike in the future, but instead of people/media backing them up, they'll begrudge them, classic divide and conquer. We should be standing together against what is happening to this country and moving on as a country on our own terms not those of Brussels/Berlin/London/Paris/Washington

iamstop · 21-04-2011 09:35AM

andrew wrote: »

If these firms were private, and subject to the incentives of private firms to lower costs (and had the ability of private firms to lower costs), then as consumers we could all benefit from lower prices and better services.

Maybe business worked like that in the 50s but you see the profits companies like Apple, HP, Morgan Stanley, AIG, Citi Group etc post and still mark ups are ridiculous.

Crosáidí wrote: »

I'm just using that as an example, the fact is the change will come on by extremists and the middle class, action will be started by the extremists and the middle class will follow into action.

The thing about Ireland is that emigration acts as a natural pressure release valve. For the people hit the worst it has always (since the late 20s) been easier to move away as an individual then try to rally together as any kind of meaningful group and try to make changes.

Krusader · 21-04-2011 09:44AM

iamstop wrote: »

The thing about Ireland is that emigration acts as a natural pressure release valve. For the people hit the worst it has always (since the late 20s) been easier to move away as an individual then try to rally together as any kind of meaningful group and try to make changes.

That's a good point

andrew · 21-04-2011 07:18PM

iamstop wrote: »

Maybe business worked like that in the 50s but you see the profits companies like Apple, HP, Morgan Stanley, AIG, Citi Group etc post and still mark ups are ridiculous.

That's not exactly a representative sample of companies there is it; mostly banks. And what's different now such that companies no longer engage in price based competition?

InTheTrees · 21-04-2011 07:21PM

brazil is booming.

LeixlipRed · 21-04-2011 07:26PM

andrew wrote: »

It's a good thing I think. Why should the government be running businesses?

Because some people consider public services just that, services to the public, basic human rights. Not commodities to be squeezed for profit.

iamstop · 21-04-2011 07:30PM

andrew wrote: »

That's not exactly a representative sample of companies there is it; mostly banks. And what's different now such that companies no longer engage in price based competition?

I'm no economist but it's the huge multinationals that will be buying up the assets. I wouldn't be half as peeved it it were Irish based companies.

Most of the massive companies have interests in other areas aside from the ones they are known/branded for.

Hookah · 21-04-2011 07:57PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

brazil is booming.

They went from owing the IMF money to being hundreds of billions of dollars in surplus.

Whatever will these crazy left-wing loons think of next?

FTGFOP · 21-04-2011 08:08PM

hmmm wrote: »

Just like South America we also seem to have plenty of left wing loons.

I've never seen a left winged loon in Ireland.

FlutterinBantam · 21-04-2011 08:17PM

iamstop wrote: »

Firstly read this:
http://www.drogheda-independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/selloff-plan-for-stateowned-firms-2625714.html

The headline at least.

Sell-off plan for state-owned firms

I was saying this the very minute the bailout plan was being floated. I was telling people that what they did in parts of Asia, SA and Africa is to loan them money to pay their countries companies to build infrastructure.
Once the inevitable happens, loan can't be paid offer to take their assets as payment. :mad:

Agh, I'm so mad, it's so frikkin' obvious. It's just happening quicker then I thought. I'm SO outta here before the summer is up.
I was going to wait about for EP but now...I just don't know if I can. :mad:

hey, no formality, we are very informal here

FTGFOP · 21-04-2011 08:27PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

hey, no formality, we are very informal here

The hyphens?

southsiderosie · 21-04-2011 08:35PM

andrew wrote: »

It's a good thing I think. Why should the government be running businesses?

Airlines are one thing. But basic services - water, roads, schools - are another story.

Frankly I don't understand why governments would agree to privatize any of these services. They may get a one-time cash payout, but that won't solve what are essentially long-term budget problems. And even though they may privatize the services, voters are still going to hold elected officials responsible when their water cuts off, or there are potholes in the road. And they will definitely be pissed off when private providers jack up prices to fix these things. So for politicians, there seems to be a lot of risk with very little (or a one time) reward. And the idealogues pushing this kind of stuff are not the ones who will have to deal with the practical and/or political fallout from mass privatization schemes.

andrew · 21-04-2011 08:51PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Airlines are one thing. But basic services - water, roads, schools - are another story.

Frankly I don't understand why governments would agree to privatize any of these services. They may get a one-time cash payout, but that won't solve what are essentially long-term budget problems. And even though they may privatize the services, voters are still going to hold elected officials responsible when their water cuts off, or there are potholes in the road. And they will definitely be pissed off when private providers jack up prices to fix these things. So for politicians, there seems to be a lot of risk with very little (or a one time) reward. And the idealogues pushing this kind of stuff are not the ones who will have to deal with the practical and/or political fallout from mass privatization schemes.

The Review group on state assets and liabilities has considered selling the following:

Dublin Airport Authority (incl. Cork and Shannon Airport)
CIE
Dublin Bus
Irish Rail
Bus Eireann
Irish Aviation Authority
Dublin Port Company
Cork Port Company
Drogheda Port Company
Galway Port Company
Waterford Port Company
Shannon Foynes Port Company
Wicklow Port Company
New Ross Port Company
Dundalk Port Company
Dún Laoighaire Harbour Company
ESB
Bord Gais Eireann
Bord Na Mona
Eirgrid
An Post
RTE
TG4
National Oil Reserves Agency
Coillte
Horse Racing Ireland
Irish National Stud Company Ltd.
Bord Na gCo

They're not selling off roads, schools(!) or water supply. Of the companies listed there, I see no reason why the government should own any of those assets, except maybe RTE and TG4. In general, these are all areas which can be and have been privatized successfully elsewhere. Very few of these are public services; it would appear that only the transport ones are closest to what would be considered public services. Even then, why is it assumed that privatization of these companies would automatically lead to bad things happening?

skelliser · 21-04-2011 09:12PM

andrew wrote: »

Irish Aviation Authority
Dublin Port Company
Cork Port Company
Drogheda Port Company
Galway Port Company
Waterford Port Company
Shannon Foynes Port Company
Wicklow Port Company
New Ross Port Company
Dundalk Port Company
Dún Laoighaire Harbour Company

....

....

Even then, why is it assumed that privatization of these companies would automatically lead to bad things happening?

ahem... you do realise Ireland is an ISLAND!

for example, someone buys the dublin port company and then realises they have landed a goldmine! the countries largest port and where the vast majority of goods and food come in!!

andrew · 21-04-2011 09:14PM

skelliser wrote: »

ahem... you do realise Ireland is an ISLAND!

for example, someone buys the dublin port company and then realises they have landed a goldmine! the countries largest port and where the vast majority of goods and food come in!!

I know we're an island, but I'm still not sure where you're coming from/what point you're trying to make. Why would someone purchase a port and raise prices hugely if that meant less business would be done through that port?

Celly Smunt · 21-04-2011 09:54PM

i really just don't care anymore,i've worried and pointed the finger for 2 years but now i just don't care.

The thread formally titled: We are the new South America

Comments