Alternative therapies

Giselle · 20-04-2011 12:18AM

dar4 wrote: »

if often thought about this his diet was fresh veg ranicid bacon unpasturised milk bottles of stout and tobbaca and as i said washed his teeth with sut and baking soda the only thing i can think of is he lived in a world that wasnt soaked in chemicals?

I'd be more likely to credit the exercise, fresh veg, and of course our old friend genetics.

By the way if tobbacca (sic) was part of his life, he WAS soaked in chemicals.

Giselle · 20-04-2011 12:22AM

easyeason3 wrote: »

You mind boggles? My mind does fcuking backflips when I think of it.
I usually don't believe in quacks. And even now I still question what he does but whatever it is it works whether I believe in it or not. By the way it's not a money racket for him, apparently it's just something he does. Now when I first heard this alarm bells rang because I was waiting for her to be tapped for money at some stage. Three years later & he's doing whatever it is he's doing & it's working.

I never said her success was down to him entirely. However I do think that medical & alternative therapies can work hand in hand.

Generous of you.

I suppose the placebo effect can be powerful, but give some credit to all the painstaking research, all the clinical trials, all the proven, evidenced, measureable effects of his drug and treatment regimen.

Bloody Nipples · 20-04-2011 12:25AM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Some alternative therapies are beneficial and some are not. You'll always get the "science" heads slating stuff and I see the book Bad Science has been recommend, surprise surprise (it's become almost a mantra at this stage). Herbal medicine cures many disorders and ailments that mainstream medicine has failed to. Anyone that says anything else, is talking out of their bottoms.

I'm a self-confessed science head, and I'm just curious that if a herbal medicine cures many disorders that mainstream medicine can't then why wouldn't medical practitioners flock to it like flies to ****?

OutlawPete wrote: »

Sean Boylan is a close friend of my family and I can assure that he (and his father before him) have been helping people for many years to recover and heal from a whole range of illnesses.He has worked alongside oncologists and many other different specialists over the years and indeed had many consultants who he in fact treated, many times they referred patients of theirs onto Sean.

The guy was curing people with crippling stomach ulcers for years before the medical profession discovered that it was the H Pylori bug that was the causing them. People that were just dismissed as suffering from stress and referring on to psychiatrists. Of course there are charlatans out there ripping people off and homoeopathy is a joke as far as I'm concerned but to dismiss ALL forms of alternative medicine as all being quackery is in itself quackery.

Just out of curiousity, because microbiology is my own personal field of interest but what was he treating these ulcers with?

desertcircus · 20-04-2011 12:26AM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Some alternative therapies are beneficial and some are not. You'll always get the "science" heads slating stuff and I see the book Bad Science has been recommend, surprise surprise (it's become almost a mantra at this stage). Herbal medicine cures many disorders and ailments that mainstream medicine has failed to. Anyone that says anything else, is talking out of their bottoms.

The cry will usually go something along the lines of: "The plural of anecdotes is not data" or some other such pompous tripe.

Sean Boylan is a close friend of my family and I can assure that he (and his father before him) have been helping people for many years to recover and heal from a whole range of illnesses.He has worked alongside oncologists and many other different specialists over the years and indeed had many consultants who he in fact treated, many times they referred patients of theirs onto Sean.

The guy was curing people with crippling stomach ulcers for years before the medical profession discovered that it was the H Pylori bug that was the causing them. People that were just dismissed as suffering from stress and referring on to psychiatrists. Of course there are charlatans out there ripping people off and homoeopathy is a joke as far as I'm concerned but to dismiss ALL forms of alternative medicine as all being quackery is in itself quackery.

No. It's not. Dismissing everything that's repeatedly failed controlled double-blind testings is simply called following evidence. And what specific illnesses can be cured with alternative medicine but not allopathic medicine?

And the reason Bad Science gets recommended is because it's a patient, angry, step-by-step and utterly unimpeachable demolition job on alternative medicine among other things.

And the plural of anecdote isn't data. That's not pompous tripe; that's a constant reminder that it's incredibly dangerous to go on anything other than evidence when dealing with people's lives.

dar4 · 20-04-2011 12:28AM

Giselle wrote: »

I'd be more likely to credit the exercise, fresh veg, and of course our old friend genetics.

By the way if tobbacca (sic) was part of his life, he WAS soaked in chemicals.

i will disagree and both agree but the tobbaca now is differant now from then as is the food we all eat organic or not even the pint u drink of milk/alcohol the deorderant the aftershave the air freshner in ur car car/////////room feck the car itself see were im going with this?

easyeason3 · 20-04-2011 12:29AM

Giselle wrote: »

Generous of you.

I suppose the placebo effect can be powerful, but give some credit to all the painstaking research, all the clinical trials, all the proven, evidenced, measureable effects of his drug and treatment regimen.

Jesus Christ can people get off my back about this?

I have specifically said that both alternative & medical therapies can work in harmony with each other.

I NEVER SAID ALTERNATIVE IS THE WAY TO GO INSTEAD OF MEDICAL TREATMENT.

I gave an example of a friend who finds a quack that is good. And you know what? If it works for her & she's not in a coffin then I'm delighted. The difference with this guy & alot of the others is that he doesn't seem to be motivated by money. And whatever he is doing is giving her a boost so I don't see a problem with it.

Krusader · 20-04-2011 12:36AM

For stress and anxiety, i believe acupunture is a great alternative therapy

tony 2 tone · 20-04-2011 12:43AM

dar4 wrote: »

i will disagree and both agree but the tobbaca now is differant now from then as is the food we all eat organic or not even the pint u drink of milk/alcohol the deorderant the aftershave the air freshner in ur car car/////////room feck the car itself see were im going with this?

Not really. Lead was used in petrol since 1923, in the form tetraethyllead (TEL) so cars were giving out worse fumes in the past. Lots of chemicals that were used in the past in agriculture are banned now. People burnt coal and lots of rubbish too before it was disallowed, wouldn't be fairly healty either.

strobe · 20-04-2011 12:46AM

easyeason3 wrote: »

So acupuncture, meditation, natural supplements & changing a persons diet can be bad for an illness?
I know people who have no illness but do the above in order to gain more energy, feel healthier & feel more relaxed. None of the above would hinder medical treatment as far as I know.

Depends on the illness and the treatment of course.

'Natural supplements' could mean anything. Many of them could cause very severe reactions if the person is taking a prescribed MAOI for instance. Changing your diet - depends on the changes to your diet. There is a long list of medications and medical conditions which should not be combined with certain foods and there are conditions for which certain foods should be eaten in abundance.

The point is yes some of these things could have negative effects on treatments and on illnesses and should not be used without the ok from a regular, non-alternative, medical professional. Most are benign because there is basically nothing to them but some aren't.

I always find it funny when people laud the amazing pharmacological effects and applications of 'all natural herbal medication' and then deny they could have any contraindications.

It doesn't quite make much sense, now does it?

20-04-2011 12:46AM

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

True as far as it goes but tablets can contain far higher quantities of medicinal compounds than are found in a single plant, like a single Vit C tablet contains the same Vitamin C conc. of 20 oranges. While it is her friends choice, Dara O'Briain's point still stands that if it works the doc is going to get his hands on it. Doctors have access to a far wider range of medicines and potential medicines than any alternative practitioner and have the efforts of thousands of researchers behind them, in microbiology, biochemistry, neuroscience, human physiology and other areas of biomedical research churning out info on those treatments already available and actively looking for new ones.

Any potential treatments one of these quacks has will, in all likelihood, have been studied by someone with actual scientific expertise on it and it will have been accepted or discarded based on its merits as medical treatment.

Not sure why you quoted my post.
The word etc, if not the more specific use of the word dosage in my post includes your point about strength. So you're basically agreeing with me. You say doctors have access to more resources and knowledge bases than alternative therapists. Again, I never said anything to suggest otherwise. I would trust the resources of a doctor far more than an alternative therapist. As for your last point, while it has no bearing on my first post, I do happen to disagree with you. While doctors have a massive knowledge base, we haven't investigated anywhere near ALL alternative treatments.

OutlawPete wrote: »

Some alternative therapies are beneficial and some are not. You'll always get the "science" heads slating stuff and I see the book Bad Science has been recommend, surprise surprise (it's become almost a mantra at this stage).

I too usually take quite a bad reaction to that book being referenced to. Haven't read it, don't have an opinion on whether it's good or bad, but I have a friend who always references it in a "using a little bit of information to produce a whole load of bull" way, in order to put people down. He doesn't actually have any background in science at all. Now I get a bit of a knee jerk reaction to it.

Pedro K · 20-04-2011 12:47AM

I read a book before called "Suckers: How Alternative Medicine Makes Fools of us All".

Very good read. I feel bad that there are people cashing in on people's desperation with treatment that just doesn't work.

dar4 · 20-04-2011 12:55AM

tony 2 tone wrote: »

Not really. Lead was used in petrol since 1923, in the form tetraethyllead (TEL) so cars were giving out worse fumes in the past. Lots of chemicals that were used in the past in agriculture are banned now. People burnt coal and lots of rubbish too before it was disallowed, wouldn't be fairly healty either.

so on average when was the motor car/ the conbustable engine in this country lets just say i think that the world is suufering since the industrail revevolotioin in the grand scehce of things and also you havnt thought about the freely availible cosmetics freelly used in every western household and wat their 100 year impact on health and enviroment phew i need i ly down ?

Bloody Nipples · 20-04-2011 01:20AM

true-or-false wrote: »

Not sure why you quoted my post.
The word etc, if not the more specific use of the word dosage in my post includes your point about strength. So you're basically agreeing with me. You say doctors have access to more resources and knowledge bases than alternative therapists. Again, I never said anything to suggest otherwise. I would trust the resources of a doctor far more than an alternative therapist. As for your last point, while it has no bearing on my first post, I do happen to disagree with you. While doctors have a massive knowledge base, we haven't investigated anywhere near ALL alternative treatments.

It made more sense in my head

sorry.

Though when it comes to alternative therapies being investigated, when you consider something like homeopathy is putting something in water and shaking it and using diluted aliquots of that as medicine on the basis water can remember structures, a treatment can be made up on the spot. Like, for example, take two sprigs of parsley and crush them up in water and put it in your ears to treat an earache? Should someone investigate that? I believe it's as relevant as any homeopathic treatment.

So in that respect you could never investigate all alternative treatments. However go to google scholar and you'll find papers on pretty much any conventional alternative therapy. Pretty much all of it has been debunked. If it worked it'd be medicine.

AnonoBoy · 20-04-2011 01:29AM

Alright, I got a bit of touch of AIDS so I'm going to eat some raw garlic, stick a pin up me hole, rub aniseed into my eyeballs and I think I'll be alright in the morning.

See you guys tomorrow!

dar4 · 20-04-2011 01:39AM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Alright, I got a bit of touch of AIDS so I'm going to eat some raw garlic, stick a pin up me hole, rub aniseed into my eyeballs and I think I'll be alright in the morning.

See you guys tomorrow!

with that sort of sick mind ull always fester good luck

Oh_Noes · 20-04-2011 01:53AM

I think a lot of people here have some strange notion of "alternative medicine" being crackpots settting up small clinics and charging huge amounts of money for something that is their own method that they have created themselves.

If you're talking about Chinese medicine, Indian medicine and several other types of medicine that have been around for thousands of years and have been tried and tested on millions of people, it's pretty extreme to just write everything off as quackery.

Western Science had only really been around as we know it for a few hundred years, it has taken a good fraction of its practices from the very practices you all dismiss as quackery. It has also had a lot of its own treatment practices written off over time.

It's also worth pointing out that Western medicine has a long, long way to go before they've tackled cancer in any confident way. I'm sure the majority of people reading this thread have lost a relative to cancer who was treated only with Western medicine.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-04-2011 02:28AM

I think people need to differentiate between "alternative" and "complimentary" therapies.

"Alternative" therapies should be treated with caution. "Complimentary" therapies, on the other hand should alongside scientific medical practice, i.e. compliment it.

The other thing I've noticed about the OP is the mixing up of the use of "medicines" with "therapies". Medicine is designed to heal, therapy is to recover.

Owwmykneecap · 20-04-2011 03:00AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Isn't there suppose to be a doctor in Italy that cures cancer with Baking Soda (Sodium Bi-Carbonate), it occurs naturally in nature so drug companies can't patent it

You know paracetamol ain't patented right?

Yet they still sell that.

Owwmykneecap · 20-04-2011 03:02AM

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Western Science

No such thing. There is science, that is all.

When China became only the third independent nation to send humans into space, they didn't use Chinese physics to do it.

dar4 · 20-04-2011 03:52AM

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

No such thing. There is science, that is all.

When China became only the third independent nation to send humans into space, they didn't use Chinese physics to do it.

wats china and space got to with this?

Owwmykneecap · 20-04-2011 03:57AM

dar4 wrote: »

wats china and space got to with this?

Drug use among children has for many an education and with obvious alarm for both parents on the increase almost yearly.

dar4 · 20-04-2011 04:13AM

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

Drug use among children has for many an education and with obvious alarm for both parents on the increase almost yearly.

alternitility f u now for sum real debate?

desertcircus · 20-04-2011 09:41AM

The stuff that was tested and found to work is called medicine. It's that thing that's led to massive advances in life expectancy.

dvpower · 20-04-2011 09:42AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

For stress and anxiety, i believe acupunture is a great alternative therapy

There is very little evidence for acupunture as a treatment for anxiety. It may be that it is treating an underlying problem or just a placebo effect.

20-04-2011 09:50AM

I know that oils such as witchhazel or lavender or tea tree work well - that's why a lot of commercial products use them - but for something like cancer? No, hard medicine please. Other stuff on the side as well maybe if you want to try all routes.
For small things I think we are known to overmedicate, e.g. antibiotics for colds. My gp and pharmacist both agree there's no need for that messing, just steam with some salt/eucalyptus!!

pickarooney · 20-04-2011 10:09AM

Alternative medicine is a bit of a broad term to dismiss as nonsense. Osteopathy, acupuncture and even physiotherapy come under the term in most countries and 'herbal' remedies have even been sanctioned by the state of California, have they not?

Splendour · 20-04-2011 10:12AM

Pedro K wrote: »

I read a book before called "Suckers: How Alternative Medicine Makes Fools of us All".

Very good read. I feel bad that there are people cashing in on people's desperation with treatment that just doesn't work.

There are plenty of GP's and Specialists from scientific backgrounds who do this and charge a small fortune for it too.

dvpower · 20-04-2011 10:19AM

Splendour wrote: »

There are plenty of GP's and Specialists from scientific backgrounds who do this and charge a small fortune for it too.

There are plenty of GPs and Specialists from scientific backgrounds who 'cash in on people's desperation with treatment that just doesn't work'? Really?

They should be struck off.

20-04-2011 10:24AM

dvpower wrote: »

There is very little evidence for acupunture as a treatment for anxiety. It may be that it is treating an underlying problem or just a placebo effect.

I never understand it when something is dismissed as it might be placebo. So what if it's placebo, whether it's a placebo or not, it works. As long as there's no adverse effects, it makes perfect sense to use it. In fact when it comes to something such as anxiety, surely a treatment fueled by the mind, if it works, is preferable to medications?

As already said, obviously for stuff like cancer and other serious conditions, western medicine should be the first stop, but after that, alternative medicine such as acupuncture for conditions such as anxiety is perfectly acceptable. If it works for someone and they can afford it, what's the harm?

dvpower · 20-04-2011 10:28AM

pickarooney wrote: »

Alternative medicine is a bit of a broad term to dismiss as nonsense. Osteopathy, acupuncture and even physiotherapy come under the term in most countries and 'herbal' remedies have even been sanctioned by the state of California, have they not?

It is. We should look at the evidence for each treatment and dismiss the stuff that has no good evidence as nonsense.
But just because some specific herbal remedy might be seen to work for a certain complaint, this doesn't mean that herbal remedies 'work'. We should demand a similar burden of evidence from alternative medicine as we do from modern medicine.

And just because a state sanctions some treatment doesn't at all mean that it works. The British government funds homeopathy to some extent, but they do it for political reasons, not medical ones.

Alternative therapies

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