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Appalling comments by the ISPCA

  • 17-04-2011 12:16pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭


    From today's Sunday Times:

    "Noel Griffin, the ISPCA's chief executive said that his group's put to sleep figures were higher than other pounds because it does not give dogs to other welfare groups to rehome in Britain. He questioned how other Irish animal-welfare groups were managing to find homes for dogs that he said were of "no value" & "not the prettiest".

    "The exporting of dogs to the UK improves the statistics but I would question where these dogs are going" said Griffin.

    Griffin questioned why rescue groups in Britain, who accept Irish strays were taking "a load of old mongrels". "With all due respect to the little dogs they are not the prettiest so what is the attraction ?. Why would someone take five or six dogs to England ?. These are not thoroughbreds that have a value. When a dog has no value I think animal welfare goes out the window".

    Griffin said that the ISPCA did not give unwanted dogs to charities like the Dog's Trust".


«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Tranceypoo


    Seriously??!! This guy is CEO of the ISPCA??!! Actually you know, everything has fallen into place reading this, the disdain and disregard of dogs and their welfare in this country. I am so fcking disgusted to read this and shocked, but maybe that's naive of me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37 Nollipop


    Without being able to read the full article in context, its hard to see what point he's making here, but it sounds like a horrific attitude to hold in his position!

    What was he thinking!? Its not exactly going to give his organisation more positive publicity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    The ISPCA Pound in Donegal kills 85% of incoming dogs & Roscommon kills 80%.

    The article also states that the ISPCA get €1 million in payment from local authorities to run Pounds.

    Griffin also insults the UK rescues that take Irish dogs:

    "The exporting of dogs to the UK improves the statistics but I would question where those dogs are going" said Griffin. "While we accept that many people who rehome dogs in Britain are well meaning, the (agencies) cannot honestly say that they know where the dogs end up"

    He ignores that fact that the vast majority of dogs, rehomed by Irish rescues, are rehomed in Ireland. I just hope that the UK rescues realise that he does not represent the views of many here - we need all the help that we can get.

    I have been aware of this "stance" for some time & have also been made aware by correspondence from concerned people. I am amazed that he has committed his thoughts to print.

    The article is pretty big & on page 4 in a prominent spot. They list all the Pounds & their percentage PTS figures. I can link to it but you have to pay to view it :mad:.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭Shazanne


    I cant believe I just read that:mad: How the hell did a man who can speak so callously and coldly about animals be in that position as CEO - and what is he being paid for it and by whom?
    How dare he say those things about "dogs with no value" and "mongrels" - how dare he:mad: I have two rescue dogs that are more precious to me than any purebred animal could ever be. And I see no mention or acknowledgment by him of all the good that ordinary people do for animals all the time - and they dont have his fancy title! This country is useless when it comes to animal rights - and even to basic animal respect. And when you read that sort sh1t is not hard to understand why.
    Get rid of him is what I say!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭anniehoo


    I went and bought the Times just to read this article. One word-SHOCKED! I cannot believe the CEO of a major animal welfare charity would say such amazingly idiotic and downright offensive comments.
    wrote:
    Griffin questioned why rescue groups in Britain who accept Irish strays were "taking a load of old mongrels"
    :mad:

    Im astounded to be quite honest. How on earth are other worthy animal charities and rescues meant to continue with their constant struggle of rehoming these dogs if one of the so called "top" managerial and supposedly influential people running the NATIONAL organisation for animal cruelty doesnt seem to care less about animals at all and bases a dogs "value" on whether its a pedigree or not. Im floored and downright appalled. He should be sacked end of....

    Here is the statistics for the "Proportion of Dogs put down by area". Quoted from that article and sourced from the DoE. Orange highlights ISPCA pounds.
    005je.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭EGAR


    Discodog wrote: »
    He ignores that fact that the vast majority of dogs, rehomed by Irish rescues, are rehomed in Ireland.

    I don't agree with you there, DD, although I rarely send dogs to the UK (3 last year), there is a lively rescue tourism going to the UK every week with van loads of dogs going to the UK, straight from the pound via pound rescues or directly from Irish rescue. Also, a lot of rescues send dogs to Sweden, Germany, Tchech Republic and Italy (the latter has half a million stray dogs and appalling *shelters*).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,553 ✭✭✭mymo


    I can tell you exactly how they find homes for them in the UK, 30 years of serious work to get people to neuter has paid off, there is better legislation and a higher standard of care for animals in the UK. Don't get me wrong they aren't perfect, but they now have less dogs there that need rehoming.
    I know of someone who was looking for a mutt and couldn't find one in rescue there, so got one through a rescue that shipped them over from here.
    There are far more pedigree dogs in shelters there now as they are the only ones that are being bred, the mutts were all neutered.
    The shelter my friend went to told her that only about 30% of the dogs they re-home are from local area, about half they get from Ireland. The others from other shelters.
    One day I hope Ireland will be in that situation, that we have a shortage of dogs needing rehoming due to no accidental litters etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭EGAR


    Hm, just realised, nice swipe at Dogstrust there. Which brings to mind that that last CEO of the ISPCA left to run the Irish branch of the Dogstrust ;).


  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭hpsheba


    few points that I would like to make on this article. (1) Noel Griffin should resign or retract his comments asap. He has no understanding at all of the hard work, sweat and tears that animal welfare advocates show day in and day out to get homes for dogs. . Thankully most of them don’t care how the dogs look unlike Noel who makes that most bizarre comments in realtion to how people who love animals pick may pick a companions. Me and my 3 mongrels here are very happy and they are all rescue dogs. (2) His point in relation to dogs going to the UK for homing to improve statistics??? Well I personally am very thankfull to organision that do cover the cost of not only transporting these dogs to the UK for rehoming but also generally have to cover the veterinary costs involved, vaccinations, micro chipping and nuetering. I would be very surprised if many of them did not follow up on where the dogs went after they homed them. I fostered dogs many times and always got an update when I enquired how they were getting on in the UK? Is Noel Griffin refering to a particular rescue??? maybe he should name them i so and not try and discredit some fo the best rescue groups with some murky brush. (3) Thoughbreds are horses, I think someone who is the CEO of the most high profile animal resue in Ireland should knlw that full breed dogs are generally referred to as PEDIGREE. (4) ISPCA running pounds which operate the 5 days PTS rules, what a contradiction between their name and their operating practises.
    One other point, Blackhall Boarding Kennels as far as I am aware operate a Dog Pound and I was not aware that they had a no kill policy. Thats fantastic news and I am delighted for the rescue groups that work so hard to help rehome the dogs from there, in particular A Dogs Life, that must really take some of the pressure of them now. Well done Blackhall.:confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    The worrying thing is that the ISPCA are assumed to be beyond reproach. They may even get preferential treatment in the awarding of Pound contracts. I wonder if Griffin was caught on the hop without an excuse. After all you would not expect a journalist here to be concerned about Pound deaths.

    If the CEO of the RSPCA had made those remarks they would be gone by now. I wonder how the rest of the ISPCA management will react ?. I fully accept that you cannot operate a no kill Pound in a busy area. But clearly the ISPCA are turning down offers of homes & killing dogs instead.

    This is in stark contrast to Mr Griffin's statement earlier this year:

    "The ISPCA continues to work tirelessly with our
    affiliated societies and other welfare groups to rescue, rehabilitate and
    responsibly re-home all the animals that come into our care.

    It is not the case that we put down healthy animals nor is this our intention
    in the future.

    NOEL GRIFFIN
    CEO, ISPCA, CO LONGFORD"

    According to Likedin Mr Griffin's previous job was : " Head of Treasury & Deposits at Bank of Scotland (Ireland) Ltd" !


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,658 ✭✭✭✭The Sweeper


    Definitely tactless and unfeeling comments, but I wonder what his underlying point was? He seems to be saying they're taking a load of old mongrels, and nobody could possibly want those dogs, so what's happening to them? I wonder if he's expecting people to read between the lines and take on an implication that the dogs end up somewhere other than loving homes.

    To be more clear, I wonder if he's suggesting that rescues who take 'unwantable' dogs and ship them to the UK for alleged rehoming actually have no control over where the dogs wind up, so they could be fuelling the demand for bait dogs for fighting rings or breeding dogs for puppy factories and so on?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,565 ✭✭✭✭Tallon


    Absolute disgrace


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    Definitely tactless and unfeeling comments, but I wonder what his underlying point was? He seems to be saying they're taking a load of old mongrels, and nobody could possibly want those dogs, so what's happening to them? I wonder if he's expecting people to read between the lines and take on an implication that the dogs end up somewhere other than loving homes.

    To be more clear, I wonder if he's suggesting that rescues who take 'unwantable' dogs and ship them to the UK for alleged rehoming actually have no control over where the dogs wind up, so they could be fuelling the demand for bait dogs for fighting rings or breeding dogs for puppy factories and so on?


    yea that is the way I read it first and still do really.

    It seems to me to pose the question as to who is taking all these dogs in the UK, is it possible they are used for unscrupelous means and what control do the rescues sending them there really have?

    I see the question as to why is there a demand to adopt non purebred or thoroughbred as he puts its.

    "When a dog has no value I think animal welfare goes out the window" i see this as basically saying that if you pay a fortune for your dog you are more likely to look after it??

    Thats just the way I read it

    Anyway he needs to explain this interview I think:(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    ppink wrote: »
    "When a dog has no value I think animal welfare goes out the window" i see this as basically saying that if you pay a fortune for your dog you are more likely to look after it??
    Hmm.. I read it as him poorly wording that people only really adopt cute puppies and generally aren't all that interested in an old mongrel or a dog that needs some form of speciality treatment. It is something that we've been hearing for a long time, that some dogs have a close to zero chance of being re-homed, mainly for cosmetic reasons, so where do they end up?

    I do think that this interview could probably be explained, and that, ironically given his previous position, he took a really bad approach in addressing the figures. If you look at them again you'll see that figures are grouped roughly by region, the midland's are all around the 50 mark, a lot of the east at the low end of the scale, why oh why didn't he just turn it around and advocate more funding for those areas or something? I know its avoiding the point but he's doing that anyway, just poorly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    To be more clear, I wonder if he's suggesting that rescues who take 'unwantable' dogs and ship them to the UK for alleged rehoming actually have no control over where the dogs wind up, so they could be fuelling the demand for bait dogs for fighting rings or breeding dogs for puppy factories and so on?

    I would suggest that he goes to Britain. He will find that the vast majority of rescues there operate to high standards. We admire the Dogs Trust centre in Dublin but they have 17 such centres in the UK & they are just one of many organisations. I have rehomed in the UK & the home checks are just as rigorous as here. Mongrels are no good for puppy farming.

    The difference in the UK is that the RSPCA are a very active organisation. Any "dodgy" rescue would soon attract attention. In any event the numbers would be insignificant. I suspect that the facts are that rehoming requires a lot of effort & killing doesn't. I would also be concerned that the lure of Council money may appeal to an ex banker.

    He doesn't need to explain, he needs to be sacked. If & to me it's a big if, he has been misunderstood then he clearly does not have the communication skills for the job.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    imyourstruly, you're new here so I'll give you one warning.

    You can contribute without lowering yourself to commenting on someone's appearance or otherwise flinging insults.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    I'm a little confused by some of this.

    How can he say "ISPCA did not give unwanted dogs to charities like the Dog's Trust"?

    Once a dog has been surrendered (or its 5 days are up) surely Dog's trust (or anyone) can go into a pound and take any dog they choose?

    Is it financials, are Dog's trust taking dogs from other pounds without paying whatever fees a normal member of the public would have to pay?

    Even if you didn't give a fig about dogs, it would seem that every dog taken from them by someone else, at the very least doesn't harm them? So what motivation is there *not* to do it?

    Do they get a fixed fee per year to run a pound? Do they get paid by the dog? Can they charge for each dog put down? otherwise none of it makes sense to me.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,822 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    seamus wrote: »
    imyourstruly, you're new here so I'll give you one warning.

    You can contribute without lowering yourself to commenting on someone's appearance or otherwise flinging insults.


    Bit of a cross over.Ive banned him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    mongrels are used up and down this country for dog breeding (puppy mills) are they not........I sat next to a cavapom or some such mix in the vets the other day and he cost €500 but was "an excellent line that came from Dublin you know":rolleyes:

    UK have their own problems, it would be a bit naieve of us to think they do not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭Shazanne


    [QUOTE=Discodog;71752605 After all you would not expect a journalist here to be concerned about Pound deaths.

    I take offence to this remark. I am many of my colleagues take great interest in animal welfare at all levels. While I may not have the clout of the Times behind me, I do spread the message of responsible pet ownership regularly and I also run a regular column advertising dogs for re-homing, which has proven very successful. Please do not generalise when making such comments!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    pH wrote: »
    How can he say "ISPCA did not give unwanted dogs to charities like the Dog's Trust"?

    Once a dog has been surrendered (or its 5 days are up) surely Dog's trust (or anyone) can go into a pound and take any dog they choose?

    Is it financials, are Dog's trust taking dogs from other pounds without paying whatever fees a normal member of the public would have to pay?
    No, I don't that's the case. Some pounds work very closely with local charities and rescues.
    When they take in a dog, they will hold onto it for as long as they can, and then alert local charities when a dog is in imminent danger of being pts. I don't know if the charities pay release fees. I imagine they do. This is what accounts for the very low PTS figure in South Dublin; I imagine it's the same for the other areas with a rate under 20%.

    The ISCPA-run pounds however don't get in contact with anyone and simply put the dog to sleep when his time runs out. In a lot of the ISPCA areas, charities are smaller and so have less resources, and they have to do their best to go to the pound to rescue the dogs.
    What makes it worse is that the ISPCA in its main areas will swallow up a lot of charitable donations which could go towards genuine animal welfare organisations.
    It's not really any surprise that low PTS figures are somewhat clustered in the east and in cities; this is where there are the most welfare organisations working with the local pounds and rescuing dogs. In Donegal the ISPCA would be the dominant organisation, hence why such a pathetic number of dogs are being rescued.

    It's an admission on his part to what everyone else has known for a long time - the ISPCA have zero interest in rescuing animals. Instead they prefer to seize and destroy them.

    What makes it more annoying is that despite the DSPCA being quoted as "unaffiliated" in that article, most people will still not realise that the organisations are unaffiliated, and his ridiculous comments will result in negative PR for all of the other SPCA's.

    My advice to them would be to join forces and investigate if there's a possibility of legally challenging the ISPCA's right to use that name on the basis that they do not act in the best interests of animals. Then the other SPCA's could seize the name and use it countrywide under the proper ethos.
    Do they get a fixed fee per year to run a pound? Do they get paid by the dog? Can they charge for each dog put down? otherwise none of it makes sense to me.
    I imagine it's a fixed fee each year. Hence why there's no motivation beyond the warden's humanity to attempt to rehome the dogs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    Obviously the statement has a deeper meaning. On the surface it seems better to put down animals rather than to export them to the UK.

    Obviously he knows or suspects something that may not be public knowledge.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,033 ✭✭✭thebullkf


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/most-dogs-rescued-by-ispca-destroyed-2622180.html


    i was gonna post this till i saw DD had beaten me to it...
    A LEADING animal welfare group last night defended its policies after figures showed its dog pounds put down three in every five of the animals it rescued.
    Figures compiled by the Department of the Environment show pounds run by the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ISPCA) put down a higher percentage of dogs than pounds run by other charities.
    But chief executive Noel Griffin said the figures did not tell the full story, pointing to the large numbers of dogs being exported to Britain in "appalling conditions".
    "Our figures will probably always look worse but is it a matter of keeping animals alive regardless?" he asked. "I would say no."In all, nine ISPCA pounds destroyed 59pc of dogs in 2009, the latest year for which official figures are available, compared with 38pc in 25 services overseen by local authorities.
    Facilities operated by the ISPCA in Donegal and Roscommon were recorded as putting down 85pc and 80pc of the dogs under their care respectively
    Seized
    Wicklow was at the opposite end of the ISPCA record where only 34pc of the dogs it rescued were eventually destroyed, with the rest rehomed.
    Non-ISPCA pounds found homes for all but a small number of their dogs.
    In Leitrim, just 2pc were destroyed. In Louth it was 7pc, and in South Dublin 95pc were categorised as rehomed/ reclaimed.
    Mr Griffin said the society took in an estimated 3,500 to 4,000 dogs each year, most of them seized or surrendered by their owners.Their figures for the number put down would always be higher because they did not give dogs to other welfare groups to rehome in Britain, he added.
    "We know for a fact that dogs are being exported in appalling conditions to the UK. If we also shipped dogs we would improve our figures."
    The agencies involved could not honestly say they knew where the animals ended up.
    "It's easy for people to knock us and say we could do more but we need to get a little less emotional and if anyone has a better suggestion we are open to it," Mr Griffin added.

    Boils my blood:mad:


    Maybe a retrospective financial burden should be placed on irresponsible owners?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    seamus wrote: »

    My advice to them would be to join forces and investigate if there's a possibility of legally challenging the ISPCA's right to use that name on the basis that they do not act in the best interests of animals. Then the other SPCA's could seize the name and use it countrywide under the proper ethos.

    I imagine it's a fixed fee each year. Hence why there's no motivation beyond the warden's humanity to attempt to rehome the dogs.


    surely the most important thing for any rescues in this country is to have themselves regulated in some fashion. Little point in them seizing the name and all still going about their merry business all with separate objectives and standards.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ppink wrote: »
    surely the most important thing for any rescues in this country is to have themselves regulated in some fashion. Little point in them seizing the name and all still going about their merry business all with separate objectives and standards.
    That is a good point, but my suspicion would be that the ISPCA in their current fashion would be well inside any code of practice guidelines set out by a Irish regulator.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭toadfly


    seamus wrote: »
    I don't know if the charities pay release fees. I imagine they do.

    Any dog I have helped in taking from the pound and transported to a rescue I didnt have to pay a fee.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    In all fairness, while his tone could be chosen better, I can't fault him for questioning why there would the UK would have such a demand for dogs that nobody wants in Ireland. It would make me just as suspicious as him.

    And I think that his words about mongrels and their value were meant to be taken not as his personal point of view, but rather as the experience he had made with people wanting a dog. I know all mongrel-owners out there will bite of my head for this, but the fact is that most people who decide they want a dog are not all that likely to pick an "old mongrel", if they can have a younger pure-bred from the same pound.
    I find him questioning what will happen to these dogs in the UK a valid concern.

    It obviously doesn't excuse the numbers of dogs being put down, so please don't read my post this way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    seamus wrote: »
    No, I don't that's the case. Some pounds work very closely with local charities and rescues.
    When they take in a dog, they will hold onto it for as long as they can, and then alert local charities when a dog is in imminent danger of being pts. I don't know if the charities pay release fees. I imagine they do. This is what accounts for the very low PTS figure in South Dublin; I imagine it's the same for the other areas with a rate under 20%.

    No, as far as I understand it (with Dogslife from Dunboyne pound) its all proactive management on the side of Dogs life, they visit the pound, photo the dogs, maintain dates for pickup. There's little (or no) proactive pushing and management of the dogs from the pound's point of view.

    I'm still querying the ISPCA comment that they "Don't give dogs to rescues like Dogs Trust", how can they not do this, if members of Dogs Trust (for example - or any other rescue) attend a public pound and say they'll take dogs (like any other member of the public can), how does the ISPCA not give them to them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Tranceypoo


    I would take exception to his comments that dogs are transported to the UK in 'appalling conditions' and I'd like to know where he gets his information from on this, I've first hand taken dogs to certain rescues who run a van to the UK most Fridays and lots of shelters send their dogs over and the dogs are far from being in 'appalling conditions' and they have to have their vacs, passports, be chipped and netuered/spayed and the rescue I help out sometimes certainly do know where there dogs end up, with reputable, established rescues, it's actually not in an Irish rescues best interest to send a dog to the UK or anywhere in Europe because it costs them money as they have to be chipped etc etc and the rescue they are going to rarely give them any contribution, if they rehome in Ireland they will at least cover their costs of the chipping and neutering and the vacs.

    I would just have to echo another poster by saying how dare he and how fcking DARE he!!!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 620 ✭✭✭mosi


    This is sadly unsurprising. I remember a few years back, there being an uproar over conditions in a certain ISPCA pound...allegations of dogs being arbitrarily pts, the pound refusing to cooperate with rescues, the staff refusing to scan for microchips because of a union dispute and so on.
    I had hoped things might change but obviously not. Griffin's comments are unexcusable. I would be incensed if I heard someone on the street saying this and it is even worse that the CEO of the ISPCA has this attitude. How is the general public to be educated and encouraged to rehome rescue dogs when the head of the most prominent animal charity in the country speaks like this?
    It just confirms that the ISPCA does not care about rehoming strays. There is no reason for them not to allow dogs to go to the UK or elsewhere if need be. The line about not knowing what will happen to the dogs is BS. If the ISPCA wanted to, they could work with the most reputable UK rescues - of which there are many - to ensure that the dogs get to safety. Yes, they have their own problems over there, but on a whole, the UK is simply a more dog friendly society than we are (admittedly, that's not difficult).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 620 ✭✭✭mosi


    http://sunshineradio.ie/updates/2011/04/18/ispca/

    From the horses mouth. He tries to backtrack, saying they do cooperate with some rescues, but not with others as they may up as lab experiments, dog fighting bait etc. I wish he could produce some evidence of this. Again, if they wanted, mechanisms could be put in place to ensure that the best interests of the dogs are upheld.
    He then goes on to repeat more BS, claiming that pound dogs all have "issues":mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    There is just so much wrong with this, where to start?

    First and really, really basic thing, I know its been pointed out already, but surely the CEO of the recognised, and 'state sanctioned' animal welfare organisation in this country should know that dogs are pedigrees, not thoroughbreds. Semantics I know, but such a basic thing, makes me wonder what does he actually know about animals at all?

    There is actually a valid point to questioning lots of Irish dogs going over to the UK for rehoming. Not all rescues over there are reputable, which is why it is necessary for the Irish rescues to know who they are working with. But, all of the rescues that I know here do that, they check on where the dogs are going and they get feedback on the dogs through their lives. Maybe thats just a little bit too much work for such a large organisation to have to do, to actually do some research on UK rescues and then some follow ups? If the ISPCA forged some links perhaps with the RSPCA, that issue could easily be sorted out.

    Why do so many dogs go to the UK? Probably for the same reason that Dogs Trust have opened here in Ireland. DT are a British organisation, why on earth have they felt that they have to come here and open a centre? Why have they felt that they have had to give out vouchers for people to get their dogs and cats neutered/spayed to cut down on unwanted litters? Why? Because our 'official' organisation that is supposed to do all of these things doesn't do it. There is some animosity in the UK that DT spend money that they raised from UK citizens in helping animals from a foreign country. It actually makes me embarassed that we have to have this help. But we DO have to have this help, imagine how many more dogs would be killed in pounds or dumped if we didn't get this help, and dogs couldn't go over to the UK for rehoming. Doesn't bear thinking about.

    I wonder if Noel Griffin has ever seen a transport van going to the UK? I would bet a lot of money that he hasn't. Our local SPCA, North West, unfortunately have to do regular trips over with dogs. Their van has crates with bedding in, plenty of space, the driver stops often to give the dogs water, exercises them etc. Without these trips, I dread to think what would happen to the local dog population. I was in my vets on Saturday, Moy vets in Ballina who do fantastic work for NWSPCA and for my own rescue. My appointment was late because the vets were treating an old dog that had been thrown into the river with a rock tied to its collar. Obviously the owners had decided they didn't want it anymore. The NWSPCA will pay for that dog's treatment and will foster it until they can find it a new home. They have no affiliation with the ISPCA - thank dog, otherwise, going on Mr Griffin's comments, I imagine that dog would be dead by now.

    This nonsense about ugly mongrels just incenses me. So to the ISPCA the life of a dog with IKC papers is worth more than one without? How many dogs from puppy farms have those papers? A helluva lot, these dogs haven't been bred properly, or raised properly, not socialised, so they are no healthier, physically or mentally than a mongrel. I have a husky here, he is a wooly, his coat is too long, he has one ear and part of his nose is missing. He is an ugly dog, without question, but I love him dearly and I could have rehomed him 100 times over. Everyone that meets Vince falls in love with him, he has his own facebook page and has loads of fans.

    Something has to be done about this man before he does anymore harm.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    mosi wrote: »


    so whats wrong with what he says here on the radio?

    he said the paper misquoted him which we all know happens too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    ppink wrote: »
    so whats wrong with what he says here on the radio?

    he said the paper misquoted him which we all know happens too.

    I actually couldn't get that link to play, so I don't know what he said in it, but I know he was on spin103.8 today as well, and I understand his comments on that were no better than what he's said in the paper.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Just a minor detail, but the overall 59% dogs put down figure seems* to be calculated by averaging the averages (and any leaving cert maths student could tell you why it's wrong).

    *There's a small chance they calculated it correctly and came to the same figure as the average of averages.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Shazanne wrote: »
    I take offence to this remark.

    Firstly I do not know your occupation. Secondly this has been going on for years & no journalist has ever raised the issue. Neither have they raised the 10,000 Greyhounds killed every year. Do a serious undercover into the Greyhound Industry & I will love you for life

    Mr Griffin said this "It is not the case that we put down healthy animals nor is this our intention in the future." So here are the figures. The following are the number of dogs killed in ISPCA Pounds during 2009

    Donegal 638
    Roscommon 198
    Kildare 186
    Offaly 300
    Laois 182
    Kilkenny 172
    Carlow 134
    Clare 518
    Wicklow 51

    TOTAL 2379

    I am now in personal communication with Mr Griffin.

    I suspect that the DT do take dogs from ISPCA Pounds but don't tell Mr Griffin.

    My inbox suggests that UK rescues are going ballistic over his remarks. Luckily they understand that it isn't the dog's fault.
    gbee wrote: »
    Obviously the statement has a deeper meaning. On the surface it seems better to put down animals rather than to export them to the UK. Obviously he knows or suspects something that may not be public knowledge.

    I don't believe that. His comments & correspondence suggest that he is staggeringly ignorant & is desperate to try & justify killing so many dogs.
    I have some 20 years experience of UK rescues & the RSPCA. Apart from the odd "mad" dog or cat lady I have never heard of any concerns regarding UK rescues. If he believes that he is right he should present evidence.
    Shenshen wrote: »
    I can't fault him for questioning why there would the UK would have such a demand for dogs that nobody wants in Ireland. It would make me just as suspicious as him.

    Any animal lover British or Irish would value every dog equally. The UK rescues know that there is a huge problem here & they try to help. A UK rescue would not see a dog as an Irish dog - it's a dog that needs help.
    That's why the Dogs Trust were able to spend over €10 million, donated by UK dog lovers, in Dublin. Mr Griffin's comments are incredibly hurtful to the UK & he has made them without a shred of evidence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    One other thing that should be clarified. A Pound Keeper has total authority over the running of their Pound. They can refuse to hand over a dog to anyone for any reason. Also a rescue would be obtaining a dog by deception if they did not declare that they were taking the dog on behalf of someone else.

    At the end of the day it is a fixed cost per year contract & killing is way cheaper than rehoming.

    I would also wonder if the ISPCA are not open to an accusation of misrepresentation when it comes to fund raising. They claim to not kill healthy dogs & some may donate assuming this to be correct. People might feel somewhat aggrieved at the thought of their donation going to an organisation that kills so many dogs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 620 ✭✭✭mosi


    ppink wrote: »
    so whats wrong with what he says here on the radio?

    he said the paper misquoted him which we all know happens too.

    He says he was misquoted insofar as he referred to old dogs and crossbreeds rather than "old mongrels"
    He does nothing to retract his statements about dogs not being "the prettiest", nor does he address the dog's "value".
    He goes on to claim that the ISPCA works with certain rescues, but that others are run by naive people who don't know where the dogs are going. He says dogs could end up in laboratories or in dog fighting but does not appear to have any evidence to back up his claims. I think that he is just trying to avoid the issue of the incredibly high pts rates in ISPCA pounds - I mean are we to believe that rescues are so lax in their rehoming that it is better to euthanise the majority of dogs that go through a pound? A lot of rescues do great work saving dogs from the pounds - I saw my two on the websites of rescues that put details of pound dogs online. He is doing these organisations a great disservice.
    He then goes on to say that most of the dogs in the pound have either killed sheep, attacked people or have been found on the side of the road. That's some generalisation. He says that dogs in the pound "by definition, have some issues". How are people supposed to be encouraged to adopt rescues if the head of the ISPCA is saying this? He then goes on to say how people are more than welcome to visit ISPCA pounds and rehome dogs from there - something entirely negated by his prior comments.
    I have family who live in the catchment area for an ISPCA pound and they know never to hand a stray in there as it is well known locally that there is little chance of it getting out alive.
    I would love to know how, and by whom, Mr Griffin got appointed to the position that he is in, considering that he is clearly uneducated about animal welfare


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 620 ✭✭✭mosi


    From their website. Now excuse me while I fight off my ugly, sheep killing mutts...
    ISPCA Statement from Noel Griffin, ISPCA Chief Executive 18th April 2011
    I would like to clarify some points made in a recent article and I apologise for any distress caused by certain remarks that were attributed to me.

    For the record - we care about all animals and would never infer any animal, dog or otherwise, had no value.

    The key point to get across is the Dog Warden Service is a completely separate section of the ISPCA which facilitate stray and/or unwanted dogs. In March this year, almost 600 dogs were taken in by the Dog Warden Service and this is simply a large number to find suitable homes for.

    The ISPCA is acutely aware of the intrinsic value of all animals, dogs or otherwise, both pedigree and cross breeds and we do our best for animals in our care at all times. We are all very aware of the enormous value a dog can bring to a home independent of their commercial value and they should be respected and protected accordingly.

    The work of the ISPCA is mostly about dealing with cases of animal neglect, cruelty and abuse. Many of the animals in the care of the ISPCA Centre's (as opposed to the dogs in the pounds) stay with us for many months as we work to rehabilitate and responsibly re-home these animals. All dogs re-homed from the ISPCA National Animal Centre are home checked, vaccinated, micro chipped and neutered/spayed.

    Some of the dogs in our pounds will have been involved in sheep attacks so the issue of responsibly re-homing them or putting them to sleep will always be a complex one. Certain breeds are easier to find homes for than other, restricted breeds and there are not enough homes to cope with the demand mainly contributed by the recession. It has been our policy for many years that we only send dogs to the UK for re-homing using a number of the rescue groups with which we are familiar as these people have a robust rehoming process. We are happy to continue to do this and indeed to work with other, like minded rescue groups.

    We are very happy to continue working with rescue groups with whom we have dealt for many years as we are confident of the fate of the dogs with their welfare in mind. When this is not possible (as we may not know the individual or organisation) it is our belief we should not be pressurised into handing over dogs simply to improve statistics. However, we are very happy to discuss this position with individuals or groups who may be in a position to assist us.

    The issues of neutering, dog control and outdated legislation need to be tackled in order to improve the shameful situation of unwanted dogs here in Ireland.


    Noel Griffin
    ISPCA Chief Executive


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    mosi wrote: »
    From their website. Now excuse me while I fight off my ugly, sheep killing mutts...

    On that point, a sheep killing dog is generally a dead dog. Your dogs are not sheep killers or whatever, they never would have got to you if they were. When I was younger there was tonnes of sheep worrying dogs around, they were destroying herds, one year I'd say over 60% of a relatives lambs were stillborns. A farmer is within their rights to shoot them, I know a lot who did. We didn't, we followed two of them 10-15km home and informed the owner. It turns out we shouldn't have wasted our time, the pound wound up advising that the only measure was to put them down as they'd only continue elsewhere. It makes sense to do that, its a lot crueller to allow them literally scare other animals to death.

    Having said that I'd love to see what percentage of dogs put down these ones amount to, I doubt its high enough to merit a mention in that statement, I would also question how that would explain anything. Wicklow has 5 times the number of sheep farms as Westmeath yet Westmeath put down twice as many dogs %wise, those stats actually look good for the ISPCA considering they are running Wicklow pounds and not Westmeath but I'm just pointing out its a bit of a ridiculous thing to bring up, it makes f all sense.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    mosi wrote: »
    He says he was misquoted insofar as he referred to old dogs and crossbreeds rather than "old mongrels"
    What I heard was he said he was misquoted-not just in reference to one thing
    He does nothing to retract his statements about dogs not being "the prettiest", nor does he address the dog's "value".

    Not sure what the big deal is here.

    He goes on to claim that the ISPCA works with certain rescues, but that others are run by naive people who don't know where the dogs are going.

    Again I did not hear this, I heard that ISPCA do work with rescues but he was worried about the dogs going to UK as maybe people were being somewhat naieve in assuming everything was ok over there.

    He says dogs could end up in laboratories or in dog fighting but does not appear to have any evidence to back up his claims.

    he said this IF it is unknown where they are going-do you think this is not possible?

    I think that he is just trying to avoid the issue of the incredibly high pts rates in ISPCA pounds - I mean are we to believe that rescues are so lax in their rehoming that it is better to euthanise the majority of dogs that go through a pound? A lot of rescues do great work saving dogs from the pounds - I saw my two on the websites of rescues that put details of pound dogs online. He is doing these organisations a great disservice.



    He then goes on to say that most of the dogs in the pound have either killed sheep, attacked people or have been found on the side of the road.

    I heard some dogs not most- which is true is it not?

    That's some generalisation. He says that dogs in the pound "by definition, have some issues".

    yes he said through abandonment or whatever caused by humans

    How are people supposed to be encouraged to adopt rescues if the head of the ISPCA is saying this? He then goes on to say how people are more than welcome to visit ISPCA pounds and rehome dogs from there - something entirely negated by his prior comments.

    Honestly the discussion has been had here before on boards, it is all very well telling someone go to the pound or rescue but there are many people who would not be able for some of the issues that come with SOME of these dogs.

    I have family who live in the catchment area for an ISPCA pound and they know never to hand a stray in there as it is well known locally that there is little chance of it getting out alive.
    I would love to know how, and by whom, Mr Griffin got appointed to the position that he is in, considering that he is clearly uneducated about animal welfare



    just to be clear I have no afiliation or contact with the ISPCA or Noel Griffin.....have no idea who he is apart from this.

    I am only giving my take on it which seems to be the opposite of others and I am not sure why. Their pound figures are not good at all. Have they been like this just since Noel Griffin took over or always?

    One final point on this paper interview. One of my dogs was on a paper once as a rescue. Everybody waited anxiously and excited waiting for the article to come out and the only thing that was right on that article was her photo!!!! the name, age, condition, what happened.............all totally wrong. Not a little wrong but totally wrong!!! All added to make a boring piece for Joe Soap turn into an exciting article.
    Maybe that is why I am a sceptic and went more for the radio interview.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    On that point, a sheep killing dog is generally a dead dog. Your dogs are not sheep killers or whatever, they never would have got to you if they were. When I was younger there was tonnes of sheep worrying dogs around, they were destroying herds, one year I'd say over 60% of a relatives lambs were stillborns. A farmer is within their rights to shoot them, I know a lot who did. We didn't, we followed two of them 10-15km home and informed the owner. It turns out we shouldn't have wasted our time, the pound wound up advising that the only measure was to put them down as they'd only continue elsewhere. It makes sense to do that, its a lot crueller to allow them literally scare other animals to death.

    Having said that I'd love to see what percentage of dogs put down these ones amount to, I doubt its high enough to merit a mention in that statement, I would also question how that would explain anything. Wicklow has 5 times the number of sheep farms as Westmeath yet Westmeath put down twice as many dogs %wise, those stats actually look good for the ISPCA considering they are running Wicklow pounds and not Westmeath but I'm just pointing out its a bit of a ridiculous thing to bring up, it makes f all sense.

    I'm sorry, but thats not true, I have one dog here that has killed sheep. It was totally his owners fault, keeping a husky in a garden with a fence about 3 foot high. Dogs that worry sheep can be rehomed, as long as it is to a responsible owner, who keeps them secure. There don't tend to be many sheep in urban areas, so dogs can rehomed to towns or cities. As you obviously know, dogs can kill sheep purely by chasing them, it doesn't mean that dog is going to attack every small furry or wooly thing it sees, the chase instinct is very high when a whole pack of animals starts running away from the dog, doesn't make it an evil animal. Even if a dog kills a sheep by biting it, it doesn't mean it has 'turned' and will then savage everything it sees because its got the taste for blood - something a Gard told a dog owner that rang me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    I didn't say they couldn't be rehomed, just that in my experience they generally aren't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Nice backtracking attempt by Griffin.

    "the Dog Warden Service is a completely separate section of the ISPCA
    ....
    The ISPCA is acutely aware of the intrinsic value of all animals"

    Sorry Noel, but these two statements don't gel. The ISPCA can't claim to value all animals on one hand and then on the other operate warden services which are little better than slaughterhouses in the volume of dogs they destroy.

    If nothing else it shows that there's some fundamental internal inconsistency in the way the organisation is governed. You're either for animals or you're not.


    The DSPCA issued a statement yesterday firmly disassociating themselves from the ISPCA, though it's mainly just PR rather than a condemnation;
    http://www.dspca.ie/cat_news_detail.jsp?itemID=1731


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Discodog wrote: »
    Any animal lover British or Irish would value every dog equally. The UK rescues know that there is a huge problem here & they try to help. A UK rescue would not see a dog as an Irish dog - it's a dog that needs help.
    That's why the Dogs Trust were able to spend over €10 million, donated by UK dog lovers, in Dublin. Mr Griffin's comments are incredibly hurtful to the UK & he has made them without a shred of evidence.

    I think the fact that cute dogs are generally easier to re-home is quite enough evidence for Mr Griffin's remarks, to be honest.

    I don't know what his personal opinion on dogs may be, but you can't hang him for stating an obvious fact, can you?
    And to paint him as an evil dog-hater for wondering why there would be such a demand in one country for dogs that couldn't be re-homed in another is rather disingenuous as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I think the fact that cute dogs are generally easier to re-home is quite enough evidence for Mr Griffin's remarks, to be honest.

    I don't know what his personal opinion on dogs may be, but you can't hang him for stating an obvious fact, can you?
    And to paint him as an evil dog-hater for wondering why there would be such a demand in one country for dogs that couldn't be re-homed in another is rather disingenuous as well.

    But beauty is in the eye of the beholder - a cute dog to one person isn't a cute dog to another. Sorry to offend people now, and I know I will, but I don't like the look of Staffies and other bull breeds, but a lot of posters on here think they are the cutest dog in the world. (I have nothing whatsoever against them, I just prefer a different look in a dog) So please define a cute dog.

    He is the CEO of an organisation supposedly there to protect dogs and look after their welfare, so his comments have to be taken in that context. If he was in a different profession and said this, then it obviously would be a different story and people wouldn't be so irate about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,644 ✭✭✭theg81der


    Maybe this man is just awake to the realities of life? I would prefer to be peacefully put down than to be sent to the UK for a starter for a fight, which is probably the reality of what is happening to these dogs (rehomed my arse). Disgusting horrible situation, very disturbing the lack of value that is placed in animals but that doesn`t make this man disgusting we don`t know him we only know he made what I would consider to be a very reality based statement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    theg81der wrote: »
    Maybe this man is just awake to the realities of life? I would prefer to be peacefully put down than to be sent to the UK for a starter for a fight, which is probably the reality of what is happening to these dogs (rehomed my arse). Disgusting horrible situation, very disturbing the lack of value that is placed in animals but that doesn`t make this man disgusting we don`t know him we only know he made what I would consider to be a very reality based statement.

    How do you know its reality? I have sent dogs to the UK, I can tell you exactly where every one of them is now. Are you seriously suggesting that the Dogs Trust allow dogs to be used for fighting?:confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    theg81der wrote: »
    Maybe this man is just awake to the realities of life? I would prefer to be peacefully put down than to be sent to the UK for a starter for a fight, which is probably the reality of what is happening to these dogs (rehomed my arse).
    Why would an agency go to the trouble and expense of rescuing dogs, only to transport them blindly into the UK?

    In fact, I would say his comments pertain to a tiny minority of Irish rescues who send their dogs off into the unknown. Most agencies would strongly evaluate a UK partner before they consider sending their dogs off to them.

    The legislation and statutory bodies which exist in the UK mean that it's much harder to operate dodgy services and any dog shipped off to the UK is de facto more likely to be treated with respect, because they simply have more respect for animals in the UK, dogs in particular.

    What he has actually done is accuse pretty much every Irish rescue and a large number of UK rescues of mistreating animals, in a dispicable attempt to justify his own organisation's blatantly hypocritical operations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,945 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    I sought some clarification from the Dogs Trust & got a rapid reply as usual. The CEO of the Dogs Trust does her email at 6 am !

    Dear Peter

    We too were a little stunned by the content of the publicity put out by the ISPCA. Our Executive Director in Ireland, Mark Beazley has, of course, been in touch with Mr Griffin who assures him that he was mis-quoted. I fear a lot of damage done and our Irish centre has been inundated with queries.

    Last year we rehomed over 1,000 dogs in Ireland (307 so far this year), we transfer around 1,000 dogs but these largely come directly from the pounds or smaller rescue charities not via our centre. 70% of the dogs in the Dublin Centre are pound dogs and 250 of those came from ISPCA pounds. So what he was quoted as saying has no basis in fact.

    Thank you for your continued interest.

    Best wishes

    Clarissa


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