Ikea's Third World outsourcing adventure -- in the U.S

pimpy_c · 12-04-2011 05:20PM

I live and work in the US and it's far from poverty stricken. People tend to work harder and they have less rights. I work in a manufacturing facility and a lot of the guys on the floor work two jobs. Do they complain? No they do not. Well, they do sometimes but they still get on with it. I admire the work ethic here because when I worked in Ireland I didn't see a fraction of what I see here. Plus, the boyos here get a lot more than $8 an hour.

Which country is going to be better off in the future? Sweden, who's manufacturing facilities are moving abroad and taking jobs with them? Or America, where the manufacturing facilities are moving to and creating jobs for Americans?

America is a typical capitalist society where there is enormous wealth but it isn't distributed evenly. Sweden is more socialist where the people are taxed heavily and the spoils are passed evenly to everyone, even the people who just don't feel like working. So, in America if you work hard you'll earn plenty of money. In Sweden, if you work hard, everyone else gets your money.

mickydoomsux · 12-04-2011 05:29PM

So America is becoming a third world country despite having the most millionaires per capita?

As someone else pointed out Sweden and America are two completely different economies. If you suceed in the US you suceed "more" as an individual as it were. If you suceed in Sweden you have to share it. It's arguable which of those situations are better.

This thread was started for the singular purpose of having another "death to capitalism, ra-ra socialism" argument.

InTheTrees · 12-04-2011 05:42PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

This thread was started for the singular purpose of having another "death to capitalism, ra-ra socialism" argument.

Well how do you explain mandatory anti-union meetings?

Or does that makes me a pinko commie socialist for asking?

InTheTrees · 12-04-2011 05:44PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

This thread was started for the singular purpose of having another "death to capitalism, ra-ra socialism" argument.

It was a 60 Minutes news story on TV last Sunday.

Mike 1972 · 12-04-2011 06:17PM

Hookah wrote: »

In Sweden, IKEA plant workers start at $19/hr, get 5 weeks vacation and are unionized. In Danville VA, they start at $8/hr and get 12 days vacation (8 picked by IKEA), have mandatory overtime and required meetings discouraging union membership. (reddit).

seamus wrote: »

Not really comparable. Swedish workers on average pay 30% of their salary in tax. Americans pay 18%..

Yup those Swedes are getting the ****ty end of the deal there :rolleyes:

lcrcboy · 12-04-2011 06:31PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

Well, if they come along and say that America is the land of milk and honey and numero uno and the greatest in the history of the fcuking galaxy and all this other sh!t and all the while their economy is down the crapper, their infant mortality rate is worse than Mexico's, they have more blacks behind bars than were slaves, they're getting their asses handed to them in foreign wars and their labour force is a sweatshop operation then yeah....I think a few uncomfortable facts should be pointed out.

Truth hurts, huh?

It does not bother me because Im not obsessed with America, in actual fact I have lived there for a number of years, as I have lived in Africa, the Uk and Ireland and traveled around the world quiet a bit. And I will tell you while America is not perfect and the best country in the world it still sure beats some of the places I have been to in Africa. And while America does have its problems in terms of poverty and education and the likes, then it should be fairly compared against the bad parts of the EU, back end places out in Latvia and Poland can be compared against back end places in Mississippi and Texas and the same goes for good places like New York and San Francisco being compared against London and Paris.

Each State is like a country, for Gods sake Florida is bigger then the UK. And I think if you look at the levels of education or blacks in prison and compare the states you will find that some will fair better then others. Oh and by the way have you ever been to the States??, the reason I ask is that generally people who very rarely leave their home country are ignorant to the outside world and say stupid things about other countries and make stupid threads like this without actually experiencing their culture or society.

lcrcboy · 12-04-2011 06:33PM

pimpy_c wrote: »

I live and work in the US and it's far from poverty stricken. People tend to work harder and they have less rights. I work in a manufacturing facility and a lot of the guys on the floor work two jobs. Do they complain? No they do not. Well, they do sometimes but they still get on with it. I admire the work ethic here because when I worked in Ireland I didn't see a fraction of what I see here. Plus, the boyos here get a lot more than $8 an hour.

Which country is going to be better off in the future? Sweden, who's manufacturing facilities are moving abroad and taking jobs with them? Or America, where the manufacturing facilities are moving to and creating jobs for Americans?

America is a typical capitalist society where there is enormous wealth but it isn't distributed evenly. Sweden is more socialist where the people are taxed heavily and the spoils are passed evenly to everyone, even the people who just don't feel like working. So, in America if you work hard you'll earn plenty of money. In Sweden, if you work hard, everyone else gets your money.

Have to agree with Pimpy C

pragmatic1 · 12-04-2011 06:51PM

whiteonion wrote: »

Child labour seems to be very common in the agricultural sector of America.
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/child-labour-us-dangerous-double-standard

Normally Child labour is something that you associate with third world countries.

The collapse of the middle class, the high deficits, the militarism, everything points toward one thing. America is becoming a third world country.

The US is in very big trouble. A large gap between the rich and poor is never a good thing, especially when the middle class buffer is shrinking by the day.

Hookah · 12-04-2011 07:14PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Yup those Swedes are getting the ****ty end of the deal there :rolleyes:

I was just clarifying the story using a thread title from reddit.

gargleblaster · 12-04-2011 07:34PM

lcrcboy wrote: »

oh great another America bashing thread :rolleyes:

I don't see this as bashing. This is observing the situation in America with respect to the employment conditions for the working class.

lcrcboy · 12-04-2011 07:40PM

gargleblaster wrote: »

I don't see this as bashing. This is observing the situation in America with respect to the employment conditions for the working class.

There may be actual facts here but the intention of the person who made this thread was to bash the US and some of his friends have joined in in other parts of the discussion, and I have replied already above to this. So Im not going to bother splashing out the same argument again.

InTheTrees · 12-04-2011 08:06PM

lcrcboy wrote: »

There may be actual facts here but the intention of the person who made this thread was to bash the US and some of his friends have joined in in other parts of the discussion, and I have replied already above to this. So Im not going to bother splashing out the same argument again.

Dude? he's bashing IKEA...

Dont be so sensitive.

gargleblaster · 12-04-2011 08:13PM

seamus wrote: »

Thanks, I'm guessing he means 40 million, which would be closer to the 10%-ish figure.

It's actually closer to 14%, and in order to compare the situation we'd need to consider how the different countries being compared define poverty.

Guill · 12-04-2011 08:17PM

whiteonion wrote: »

Ikea has built it's first factory in the United States, it should come as no surprise since wealthy countries usually ship off their factories to third world nations. This is yet more proof that America is rapidly deteriorating into a third world nation. This factory would not be able to operate in Sweden because it would be illegal to operate that kind of sweatshop in Sweden. http://www.salon.com/technology/how_the_world_works/2011/04/11/ikea_s_third_world_outsourcing_adventure_in_the_united_states You America lovers do you think that Ireland should follow its example and get rid of worker rights and get everyone to work for €6.50 per hour?

More?

ejmaztec · 12-04-2011 08:21PM

Guill wrote: »

More?

He's got the rest of the proof in his head, but I don't know where it was before that.

Gummy Panda · 12-04-2011 08:38PM

but swedish cuisine looks interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCjW0K9sjoc

Overheal · 12-04-2011 08:50PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

their infant mortality rate is worse than Mexico's

Patently false:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Mexico: 16.47/18.2 per 1,000 live births
United States: 6.3/6.26 per 1,000 live births
(Ireland: 4.9/5.05 per 1,000 live births)

they have more blacks behind bars than were slaves

That might have more to do with there being a global population of just over 1.2 billion people in the 1850s, versus 6.5 billion people around today (and US pop of 20 million versus 308 million). If you want to get into more facts and figures, just let me know.

they're getting their asses handed to them in foreign wars

how's that exactly?

and their labour force is a sweatshop operation then yeah

How is the IKEA factory a sweatshop? What difficult, and indeed dangerous conditions exist? You can't exactly classify something as a sweatshop for the employees getting fewer vacation days per year.

Truth hurts, huh?

It might, if you told it.

EverEvolving · 12-04-2011 08:54PM

pimpy_c wrote: »

I live and work in the US and it's far from poverty stricken. People tend to work harder and they have less rights. I work in a manufacturing facility and a lot of the guys on the floor work two jobs. Do they complain? No they do not. Well, they do sometimes but they still get on with it.

Which country is going to be better off in the future? Sweden, who's manufacturing facilities are moving abroad and taking jobs with them? Or America, where the manufacturing facilities are moving to and creating jobs for Americans?

Is this right though, workers rights are generally introduced for health and safety reasons and so workers aren't exploited, so sweatshop policies are the exception rather than the norm.

And also, what about quality of life. I've worked two jobs previously and had a crap quality of life, I'd much rather work one job and reduce costs than work two and 'have it all' as is the American Dream scenario. What's the point of breaking your back all day and night long if you are too exhausted to enjoy it?

As to which country is going to be better off - well it's a matter of opinion, is wealth the deciding factor or is quality of life?

If Ikea are operating in the American market then it makes absolute sense for them to produce there in order to save on shipping costs, especially in the weight intensive industry they are in. And if they are not paying the going rate then nobody will work for them. It's basic economics.

JuliusCaesar · 12-04-2011 08:55PM

Reminds me of Nickel & Dimed - Barbara Ehrenreich's book about how it isn't possible to live on a minimum wage job in the USA.

Funny, poignant, and passionate, this revelatory firsthand account of life in low-wage America—the story of Barbara Ehrenreich’s attempts to eke out a living while working as a waitress, hotel maid, house cleaner, nursing-home aide, and Wal-Mart associate—has become an essential part of the nation’s political discourse.

Now, in a new afterword, Ehrenreich shows that the plight of the underpaid has in no way eased: with fewer jobs available, deteriorating work conditions, and no pay increase in sight, Nickel and Dimed is more relevant than ever.

Overheal · 12-04-2011 08:58PM

EverEvolving wrote: »

Is this right though, workers rights are generally introduced for health and safety reasons and so workers aren't exploited, so sweatshop policies are the exception rather than the norm.

And also, what about quality of life. I've worked two jobs previously and had a crap quality of life, I'd much rather work one job and reduce costs than work two and 'have it all' as is the American Dream scenario. What's the point of breaking your back all day and night long if you are too exhausted to enjoy it?

Retiring @ 65 :pac:

Overheal · 12-04-2011 08:59PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Reminds me of Nickel & Dimed - Barbara Ehrenreich's book about how it isn't possible to live on a minimum wage job in the USA.

Didn't that - oddly, American guy - do that in Ireland though? He made a whole television series about it in around 2002-2004, I can't remember the name of it though. He was a comedian and he took a bunch of minimum wage Irish jobs and essentially concluded the same thing

edit: Des Bishop Work Experience (Irish raised in NYC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QOeC5Aj0gY

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 12-04-2011 09:05PM

OP, what are you? When are you leaving our planet to return home? Will it be soon? Please?

Killer Wench · 12-04-2011 09:15PM

Hookah wrote: »

In Sweden, IKEA plant workers start at $19/hr, get 5 weeks vacation and are unionized. In Danville VA, they start at $8/hr and get 12 days vacation (8 picked by IKEA), have mandatory overtime and required meetings discouraging union membership. (reddit)

I'd imagine this is the reason.

I wonder what the average house costs in Sweden? Or, in Dublin.

Wow, would you look at this. I could get a three bedroom/two bath house for 20K in the Danville, VA.

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-Detail/827-Paxton-St_Danville_VA_24541_M51470-75993?ex=VA527284810&cmid=1107219&source=web

Overheal · 12-04-2011 09:25PM

thats nothing, if you want to pay the paperwork and taxes you can get a house in detroit for $1

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/02/detroit-homes-mortgage-foreclosures-80

gargleblaster · 12-04-2011 09:30PM

Another thing that must be considered is the social safety net.

Things really are different in the US. It's not just the fact that you don't have health insurance unless you can pay for it. There is also little to nothing in the way of housing assistance, and food assistance is hard to get as well. Hunger is a growing problem.

Killer Wench · 12-04-2011 09:32PM

Overheal wrote: »

thats nothing, if you want to pay the paperwork and taxes you can get a house in detroit for $1

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/02/detroit-homes-mortgage-foreclosures-80

Yep, HUD has been advertising $1 homes from other parts of the country on their site. There's even some program about buying your neighbor's property for them or something like that.

Regardless, there is some dude in Danville, VA who will be making enough to support a mortgage on a decent house thanks to IKEA.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 12-04-2011 09:40PM

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Reminds me of Nickel & Dimed - Barbara Ehrenreich's book about how it isn't possible to live on a minimum wage job in the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_Beginnings

"During his first 70 days in Charleston, Shepard lived in a shelter and received food stamps. He also made new friends, finding work as a day laborer, which led to a steady job with a moving company. Ten months into the experiment, he decided to quit after learning of an illness in his family. But by then he had moved into an apartment, bought a pickup truck, and had saved close to $5,000."[2]

gargleblaster · 12-04-2011 09:41PM

Is anyone reading the links?

From the OP:

"What's more, as many as one-third of the workers at the Danville plant have been drawn from local temporary-staffing agencies. These workers receive even lower wages and no benefits, employees said."

From the piece about the super-duper deals in Detroit:

"Technically, Brumit paid $95 for the land and $5 for the house on Lawley Street – which fitted what estate agents euphemistically call an opportunity.

Brumit said: "It had a big hole in the roof from the fire department putting out the last of two arson attempts. Both previous owners tried to set it on fire to get out of the mortgages. So there's a big hole about 24ft long and the plumbing had almost entirely been ripped out and most of the electrics too. It was basically a smoke damaged, structurally intact shell with a snowdrift in the attic.""

And the reason Detroit properties are so cheap is because there are no jobs.

No jobs + little to no social safety net? Sign me up!

HavingCrack · 12-04-2011 09:48PM

Whiteonion also believes the drinking age should be raised to 25 and in putting heavy taxes on sugar to make us healthier......:rolleyes:, he clearly worships the nanny state, whats the point in debating.

ScumLord · 12-04-2011 09:50PM

America is the largest exporter of renewable timber in the world. Makes sense to put your furniture factory there.

I wouldn't think they have the highest quality workers but most of the products will be made by machine so it's not really much pf an issue.

Ikea's Third World outsourcing adventure -- in the U.S

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