The death of sectarianism?

steddyeddy · 10-04-2011 06:49PM

sollar wrote: »

The protestants still see the police force as theirs. An attack on it is seen as an attack on them.

BTW it will be along time before PC statements like 'i don't see what relevance religion is' can be applied to NI.

I think it would be more accurate to say sectarian protestents see the force as thiers normal protestents dont.

steddyeddy · 10-04-2011 06:55PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It does nothing of the sort. It shows they are sick of violence and want to publicly show their outrage at the recent bombing of a police officer.

If he had been a Protestant, Muslim or Jew there'd still be a mass protest. It has nothing to do with sectarianism.

In the 1970s you would in no way get a comdemnation across the board of the murder of one of the majority religions in the north now there is. Thats sort of my point that the march has nothing to do with sectarianisim. Sectarinism has been the source of violence in the country in the past and never has sectarianism been as absent from a condemnation of violence as it has been now. Im glad we agree that the march has nothing to do with sectarianism hopefully this banal backward attitude will die. Fair play to these marchers today.

Sunnyisland · 10-04-2011 07:06PM

I am old enough to remember all the peace marches from the 70,s and all the condemnation from both political leaders & churchmen they are nothing new, it still wont make a grain of difference to the people who carried out them bombings,We already have the leaders of the main respective communities talking and working together, we need that to happen down in the heartlands of both republican & loyalist communities before we will see any change,That's were the gunmen & bombers will come from,Thats were we have to start.imo

Bottle_of_Smoke · 10-04-2011 07:07PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

In the 1970s you would in no way get a comdemnation across the board of the murder of one of the majority religions in the north now there is. Thats sort of my point that the march has nothing to do with sectarianisim. Sectarinism has been the source of violence in the country in the past and never has sectarianism been as absent from a condemnation of violence as it has been now. Im glad we agree that the march has nothing to do with sectarianism hopefully this banal backward attitude will die. Fair play to these marchers today.

You would have got condemnation across the board if someone was murdered specifically for their religion. For police officers you would have gotten condemnation from everyone but Sinn Fein and smaller republican groups. And nowadays there's groups like Republican Sinn Fein and 32csm who would not condemn the attack.

Sectarianism wasn't really the source of violence, just catholic/protestant were the best indicators of someone's stance on the border.

So whilst there is less violence sectarianism is nowhere near dead.

steddyeddy · 10-04-2011 07:07PM

realies wrote: »

I am old enough to remember all the peace marches from the 70,s and all the condemnation from both political leaders & churchmen they are nothing new, it still wont make a grain of difference to the people who carried out them bombings,We already have the leaders of the main respective communities talking and working together, we need that to happen down in the heartlands of both republican & loyalist communities before we will see any change,That's were the gunmen & bombers will come from,Thats were we have to start.imo

I agree there is a lot of change to be made but it still is a lot better than the 1970s isnt it

Notorious97 · 10-04-2011 07:23PM

Was expecting there to be more shi*e in this thread as i read through the pages so fair play it isnt!

i think we can all agree the RIRA and CIRA have no part to play in a future Ireland, times have moved on a hell of a lot from what it was, and there is still plenty to do. Its up to the politicians and public figures such as teachers etc to guide younger people on moving forward, to promote tolerance of ones religion or nationality, this will help it to die out as the younger people are more open minded about all parts of their community, and in turn pass the positive values onto their children.

Alot of work to be done to get to that point, but if the killing of this police man does anything, lets hope it is it unites people in the view that they are sick of the past, and wish to move on to a prosperous and bright future, and that the dissidents (and any future dissidents on the loyalist side too) learn they are not welcome and their ways out now outdated as the 6 counties for once has the chance of equality and prosperity.

aligator_am · 10-04-2011 07:34PM

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Yes, can we now all just turn our attention to scorning uber-ponce Julian Simmons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ktiJUUBLPo

Kidding, man's a legend.

Ahahahahaha, I roared laughing at "a severe dig in the bake"

, sounded like something one of the old stock Dubs would say

steddyeddy · 10-04-2011 07:38PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You would have got condemnation across the board if someone was murdered specifically for their religion. For police officers you would have gotten condemnation from everyone but Sinn Fein and smaller republican groups. And nowadays there's groups like Republican Sinn Fein and 32csm who would not condemn the attack.

Sectarianism wasn't really the source of violence, just catholic/protestant were the best indicators of someone's stance on the border.

So whilst there is less violence sectarianism is nowhere near dead.

Actually mate there was groups on both sides who were short on condemantion look at the aftermath of bloodysunday. Northern ireland was the last place in the uk to get a democracy so please dont tell me sinn fienn were the only ones short on condemnation.

As for the part in bold I really think thats wrong to say the least I mean jesus look at the troubles. Sectarianisim is the bastian of the backward and insecure but i certainly think it was also the cause of violence protestents were targeted for being friends with catholics! Th orange order refused protestents access to the order because they were friends with catholics. I think people formerly invovled in sectarian communities are beginning to see that it isnt a normal way of acting to say the very least.

steddyeddy · 10-04-2011 07:40PM

Notorious97 wrote: »

Was expecting there to be more shi*e in this thread as i read through the pages so fair play it isnt!

i think we can all agree the RIRA and CIRA have no part to play in a future Ireland, times have moved on a hell of a lot from what it was, and there is still plenty to do. Its up to the politicians and public figures such as teachers etc to guide younger people on moving forward, to promote tolerance of ones religion or nationality, this will help it to die out as the younger people are more open minded about all parts of their community, and in turn pass the positive values onto their children.

Alot of work to be done to get to that point, but if the killing of this police man does anything, lets hope it is it unites people in the view that they are sick of the past, and wish to move on to a prosperous and bright future, and that the dissidents (and any future dissidents on the loyalist side too) learn they are not welcome and their ways out now outdated as the 6 counties for once has the chance of equality and prosperity.

I can see the next generation being reviled at some of the discrimination that went on.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 11-04-2011 01:45PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually mate there was groups on both sides who were short on condemantion look at the aftermath of bloodysunday. Northern ireland was the last place in the uk to get a democracy so please dont tell me sinn fienn were the only ones short on condemnation.

Eh...withdraw!

I only said they were the only major group who specifically wouldn't condemn killings of police officers. That is indisputable fact, I'm not saying that to have a go at Sinn Fein, it is just literally what happened.

As for the part in bold I really think thats wrong to say the least I mean jesus look at the troubles. Sectarianisim is the bastian of the backward and insecure but i certainly think it was also the cause of violence protestents were targeted for being friends with catholics! Th orange order refused protestents access to the order because they were friends with catholics. I think people formerly invovled in sectarian communities are beginning to see that it isnt a normal way of acting to say the very least.

Only about 10% of Protestants were in the Orange Order(far lower today) so its kind of misrepresenting things when you use them as an example of a sectarian society.

As for sectarianism being the cause of violence - its a very complicated discussion. Unionists and Nationalists look the same physically. Had one of the groups had dark skin religion may not have come into it at all. Republican violence happened because of objection to British rule. Loyalist paramilitary violence came about as a response to this violence*. True loyalists selected their victims on nothing but their religion but were they really killing them for being Catholic, or killing them because they were from the same community group as republicans/nationalists?

*At the start of the troubles there were the 1969 riots, thousands of Catholics burned out of their homes. This was not done in response to republican violence but in response to civil rights protests. Again I think this was more to do with Protestant fears of losing their priviliged status than actual hatred over religion. Which is why I don't think sectarianism was the root of the violence.

PatsytheNazi · 11-04-2011 02:29PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

After the shocking death of ronan kerr by who can only be classed as scum the whole community across the board condemmed the attack. Peter robinson stood side by side with gerry adams at the funeral. Ian paisley visiting daniel o connel's tomb. Are these times heralding the death of religious sectarianism in northern Ireland?

The TUV's Jim Allister said he wouldn't attend the funeral citing religious reasons on the radio. So OP, quit getting so carried away just because Peader Robinson and one or two more turn up to the funeral of a Catholic policeman wrongfully killed.
It's like pretending that racism is dead in America because Obama is president.

sollar · 11-04-2011 02:47PM

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

The TUV's Jim Allister said he wouldn't attend the funeral citing religious reasons on the radio.

NI will really have changed for the better when dinosours like jim allister don't get much support. He is a truely awful bigotted man.

sollar · 11-04-2011 02:54PM

realies wrote: »

Protestant working-class neighbourhoods are showing a pattern of orchestrated house attacks aimed at "ethnically cleansing" minority groups. It is happening in streets run by loyalist paramilitaries, where every Chinese takeaway owner already pays protection money and racists have plentiful access to guns. The spectre of Catholics being systematically burnt out of similar areas during the Troubles hangs in the air. etc etc

This is why the NI state is doomed to failure. They can't keep ethnic groups out forever. Eventually the demographics will change. Their little ulster will no longer be majority ulster scots/protestant etc.

NIMAN · 11-04-2011 02:59PM

There will always be sectarianism in NI, always.

steddyeddy · 17-04-2011 08:37PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Eh...withdraw!

I only said they were the only major group who specifically wouldn't condemn killings of police officers. That is indisputable fact, I'm not saying that to have a go at Sinn Fein, it is just literally what happened.

Right first off your posts are reeking of cognitive disonance. Secondly In no way were sinn fein the only group that didnt condem deaths in the north. Look at the aftermath of bloody sunday for one. I have never heard such garbage that sinn fein were the only ones not to condem deaths in the north. Even if they didnt condem the deaths of police officers why make the seperation between police and other people. I find it offensive to think that off all the deaths in the north your making a issue of one group on one side of the divide not condeming the deaths one other group.

Only about 10% of Protestants were in the Orange Order(far lower today) so its kind of misrepresenting things when you use them as an example of a sectarian society.

Well im glad were in agreement that it is a sectarian society but to have a hate group which is supported and machs through a community is the definition of sectarianism.

As for sectarianism being the cause of violence - its a very complicated discussion. Unionists and Nationalists look the same physically. Had one of the groups had dark skin religion may not have come into it at all. Republican violence happened because of objection to British rule. Loyalist paramilitary violence came about as a response to this violence*. True loyalists selected their victims on nothing but their religion but were they really killing them for being Catholic, or killing them because they were from the same community group as republicans/nationalists?

Sectarianism is discrimination based on race, religion ect. You say the victims were attacked because of their religion and then say sectarianisim wasnt the cause of the Violence. That makes zero sense but apart from that even if the cause wasnt sectarianism which it was the violence was most certainly sectarianism.

*At the start of the troubles there were the 1969 riots, thousands of Catholics burned out of their homes. This was not done in response to republican violence but in response to civil rights protests. Again I think this was more to do with Protestant fears of losing their priviliged status than actual hatred over religion. Which is why I don't think sectarianism was the root of the violence.

Jesus man its not that hard to understand attacking people of another religion because they are looking for civil rights is sectarian backward and ignorant. Protestents you say didnt like another religion trying to gain civil rights and then they attacked them and you say this attack wasnt sectarian or the motives werent sectarian. You expect me to swallow that an attack based on difference of religion isnt sectarian???

southsiderosie · 17-04-2011 09:08PM

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

The TUV's Jim Allister said he wouldn't attend the funeral citing religious reasons on the radio. So OP, quit getting so carried away just because Peader Robinson and one or two more turn up to the funeral of a Catholic policeman wrongfully killed.
It's like pretending that racism is dead in America because Obama is president.

There was a lot of fanciful thinking coming from those who claimed Obama's election heralded a new "post-racial" age in the US. Racism is not dead. But it was -and is - remarkable that a black man could be elected president in a country where blacks did not have full political rights until the 1960s. His election was a HUGE step forward for the US.

I think most countries with a history of institutionalized racism and discrimination will always have some extremists, as the Allister case demonstrates. But I don't think it can be denied that there have been momentous changes in NI over the last 10-15 years, and those shouldn't be downplayed.

Dwellingdweller · 17-04-2011 09:24PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

After the shocking death of ronan kerr by who can only be classed as scum the whole community across the board condemmed the attack. Peter robinson stood side by side with gerry adams at the funeral. Ian paisley visiting daniel o connel's tomb. Are these times heralding the death of religious sectarianism in northern Ireland?

I don't you've seen the the 'Off with her head!' thread, have you?

280special · 20-04-2011 12:42PM

Guys, I am originally from the north and was one of those who was etnically cleansed before the term was known, in order words my family had to leave their home due to religous bigotry. This was back in the early 70's.

Move the clock forward 35 years...a shopping centre car park outside Belfast, I am there with my partner and driving a ROI registered car, park in a space and get out of the car opening the boot. Another car pulls in and one of the passengers gets out and biffs the door off the side of my car. I dont say a word simply look down teh side of my car to see if there is any harm done, Female driver of the car goes off on one without me saying a word, then spots the ROI number plate and departs to another planet of hate, implications on my parents etc.....

And as if that wsnt bad enough a beer-bellyed ( almost as wide as he was tall) tatoo covered loyalist bully-boy decides to join in, thankfully only verbally.....

Suffice to say he got as good back as he gave, but no foul mouthed abuse from me as there were young kids present, before he disappeared off looking for his mates.

A few sample of this brain box's finest , most well thought out statements ?

"yes, i am a racist and proud of it"

" you are only a free state ***tard, go back down south and dont be spending your money up here"

" i wouldnt give a FKUC if someone dented my car "

" I will speak whatever way i want in front of kids..."

"we will never change"

Bigotry and hatred form a part of all too many lives up there, Yes there are scumbags on the nationalist side, a few years ago i saw a young lad belted simply for wearing a Rangers top, But I genuinely i beleive that this is a far more serious problem on the loyalist and unionist side. There are many, many decent loyalist people, the majority of them, but they are all too often bullied into quietness by these kind of thugs.

I think there may be hope if the younger generation get a chance but that isnt going to happen very easily...Consider the fact that this scumbag in the car park thought that it was perfectly acceptable to use all kinds of verbal abuse in front of his child/grandchild, a girl of approx 7 or 8...

So the news of the nail bombs didnt surprise me too much, only to be expected.

The death of sectarianism?

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