Irish and its detractors.

karma_ · 07-04-2011 08:00PM

Pace2008 wrote: »

Does the second language have to be Irish to confer you with this advantage?

I would think it matters little what the second language learned is. However, considering we are Irish, it makes sense culturally. The point is, that learning Irish should not be detrimental to the learning of languages, rather beneficial.

fkt · 07-04-2011 08:03PM

karma_ wrote: »

I would think it matters little what the second language learned is. However, considering we are Irish, it makes sense culturally. The point is, that learning Irish should not be detrimental to the learning of languages, rather beneficial.

I'm doing my LC orals this week, so I think I'm in a good position to say - It's not beneficial. In any way.

karma_ · 07-04-2011 08:03PM

fkt wrote: »

I'm doing my LC orals this week, so I think I'm in a good position to say - It's not beneficial. In any way.

Well that explains why your arguments have been so childlike.

orourkeda · 07-04-2011 08:04PM

Aimsigh wrote: »

I have seen some amazing feets of Logical dexterity when it comes to arguing against Irish, If the language's detractors are to be believed Irish is a Dead peasent language with loads of made up words, that is too purist to borrow words from other languages, that everyone hates and is spoken by elitists who only send their kids to Gaelscoils for racist reasons.

If rich people don't speak Irish it's a peasant language, if they do its a snob language.

When students are mandated merely to sit in an Irish class for two hours a week by their school to receive a capitation grant, Irish is being forced upon them, yet people chose to speak English out of their own free will, this despite all education, administration, legislation, commerce and even religion having been mandated (by ecclesiastical or governmental authority) to be conducted through English (or English and latin).

If the Gaelscoileanna are underpopulated, it's because people hate Irish, but if they are overpopulated it's because parents are racist, not because people love Irish.

If Irish speakers don't speak Irish in public, it's because they don't exist, if they do they're trying to prevent foreigners from hearing them, or are purposely being rude.

If there is no employment in Irish, it's because Irish is a useless language not worth learning, if there is, it's because Irish speakers are selfishly wanting government money for themselves.

If Irish has more borrowings than English, it's because Irish is an inferior language with a limited vocabularly, if it has less, it's because Irish isn't as open to borrowings or as international as English.

If a person is good at Irish, it's because of their own personal ability and natural flare for languages, if a person is bad at Irish it's because of the teacher.

Needless to say, this list is hardly exaustive, has anyone got a few more examples?

How about Irish is a useless, piece of sh1t dead language.

Aimsigh · 07-04-2011 08:05PM

orourkeda wrote: »

How about Irish is a useless, piece of sh1t dead language.

LOL at troll.:rolleyes:

fkt · 07-04-2011 08:05PM

karma_ wrote: »

Well that explains why your arguments have been so childlike.

Did you miss my question at the top of the page?

Snakeblood · 07-04-2011 08:08PM

karma_ wrote: »

Because you don't use it does not mean others on the island do not.

The fact is, that research has proven that learning a second language at an early age improves your ability to learn further languages.

Just because the vast minority use Irish doesn't mean the others do.

The 'Irish as a second language helps learn others' argument is inane. It disregards the possibility of using a more useful language.

karma_ · 07-04-2011 08:08PM

fkt wrote: »

Did you miss my question at the top of the page?

Don't you have cartoons to watch or something?

karma_ · 07-04-2011 08:10PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

Just because the vast minority use Irish doesn't mean the others do.

The 'Irish as a second language helps learn others' argument is inane. It disregards the possibility of using a more useful language.

Yet, even though most Irish students learn French for a period of not less than 3 years, how many of them speak French?

Snakeblood · 07-04-2011 08:11PM

karma_ wrote: »

Don't you have cartoons to watch or something?

Is that really how you talk to people?

Pwindedd · 07-04-2011 08:13PM

I'm not against the learning of Irish - just the sheer compulsoriness of it. Why not state that at Junior Cert level two extra languages should be learned - French, German, Spanish or Irish for example and let each family decide the two chosen. My daughter hates Irish but loves learning German - who's to say she wouldn't love French or Spanish more than Irish - she's doing really well in all her other subjects but the school keep drawing attention to the fact that she's not doing well in Irish. C'mon every kid has a duff subject ! She had to chose between Business Studies and Domestic Science (both far more valuable life skills IMO) yet is forced to learn a language that is neither her native tongue nor technically a foreign language either. I understand the need to keep the language alive, but this should be through love of the language not at gunpoint.

cml387 · 07-04-2011 08:14PM

orourkeda wrote: »

How about Irish is a useless, piece of sh1t dead language.

The supporters and opponents of An Teanga Naisunta are fated ever to stand on both sides throwing insults at each other for ever and ever.

My experience of Irish is from school,and it was an unremitting nightmare of novels and poetry about how we were all poor and nobody suffered like us and poor us and god help us sure wouldn't you pity us and bog and famine and Wicked English.

Possibly if there had been some effort to make it a more uplifting experience it wouldn't have been so awful.

However I resent the vast amounts of public money wasted (and even supporters of Irish must admit this) to make us bilingual.

karma_ · 07-04-2011 08:14PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

Is that really how you talk to people?

What makes you ask that?

Snakeblood · 07-04-2011 08:14PM

karma_ wrote: »

Yet, even though most Irish students learn French for a period of not less than 3 years, how many of them speak French?

Counting the ones who are working in localisation, in multinationals, in Irish companies who work with foreign companies, or who have emigrated, or who have gone on holiday somewhere else? No idea. I'm willing to wager a lot more have used French to communicate than have used Irish though.

fkt · 07-04-2011 08:16PM

karma_ wrote: »

Don't you have cartoons to watch or something?

Is the fact you know you're wrong the reason you find the need to resort to personal insults rather than answering a basic question that anyone who believes what in what they're arguing for should be able to answer?

Snakeblood · 07-04-2011 08:17PM

karma_ wrote: »

What makes you ask that?

Because it's rude as hell and if you're trying to win a debate, you're not going to, if you're trying to persuade anyone who disagrees with your position you won't and if you're trying to insult someone who hasn't actually insulted you, you're succeeding. You're coming across like an arsehole.

karma_ · 07-04-2011 08:17PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

Counting the ones who are working in localisation, in multinationals, in Irish companies who work with foreign companies, or who have emigrated, or who have gone on holiday somewhere else? No idea. I'm willing to wager a lot more have used French to communicate than have used Irish though.

The point is, that argument is a non sequitur. Those who want to learn Irish or French will, and will successfully. Those who fail to do so appear to blame the fact they have been taught Irish as the reason for this failure.

Snakeblood · 07-04-2011 08:18PM

karma_ wrote: »

The point is, that argument is a non sequitur. Those who want to learn Irish or French will, and will successfully. Those who fail to do so appear to blame the fact they have been taught Irish as the reason for this failure.

No. Those people who don't want to learn Irish will still be forced to waste their time learning when they could have been learning something else.

Aimsigh · 07-04-2011 08:18PM

fkt wrote: »

I'm doing my LC orals this week, so I think I'm in a good position to say - It's not beneficial. In any way.

Ya, I'm sure your in a great position to judge that.

NUIG

The promotion of Irish has a positive influence on Ireland’s socio-economic development and the language should have a central role in the effort now needed to rebuild the country. That’s according to Dr. John Walsh, Lecturer in Irish, the author of a new book entitled Contests and Contexts: The Irish Language and Ireland’s Socio-Economic Development.

I suppose he should have talked to you and gotten your insight on the issue, given that your in such a good position to say and all. Bet he feels so embarresed now.

Snakeblood · 07-04-2011 08:19PM

Aimsigh wrote: »

Ya, I'm sure your in a great position to judge that.

[URL=http://www.nuigalway.ie/languages_literatures_cultures/recent_developments.html[/URL]

I suppose he should have talked to you and gotten your insight on the issue, given that your in such a good position to say and all. Bet he feels so embarresed now.

John Walsh, lecturer in Irish, talking about how good learning Irish is. I find it amazing.

siniman · 07-04-2011 08:19PM

Left school nearly 20 years ago at this stage.......dear god..... with i guess as much irish as most others who do not speak it outside of school and no appreciation for the language. part of that i think is how it was taught - and also because of the points race - it was a real hard subject to get good marks in so became somewhat irrelevant for the l.c. though i still did do honours - probably concentrated more on the subjects i thought i could do better in. i do think it should definitely not be a compulsory subject - i actually did a postgrad in irish in the last few years and really enjoyed it - if it was not compulsory i think it could be taught in a way that fostered the language as opposed to turning people against what should be a positive aspect of our culture

karma_ · 07-04-2011 08:21PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

Because it's rude as hell and if you're trying to win a debate, you're not going to, if you're trying to persuade anyone who disagrees with your position you won't and if you're trying to insult someone who hasn't actually insulted you, you're succeeding. You're coming across like an arsehole.

No one wins a debate on AH, the best you can hope to do is get your retaliation in first.

hmmm · 07-04-2011 08:21PM

When I was at school we weren't taught the Irish language during "Irish class".

We were taught how we should be god fearing Catholics who obeyed our Bishop and priests, wrapped in an Irish flag spitting at the Brits and cheering on the IRA and the only sports we should watch or take part in were GAA sports. Irish class wasn't about a language, it was about indoctrination.

So no, I don't hate the language, I hate what it stood for and what in many ways it still stands for. Separate the politics from the language and maybe I'll give it a second chance, but every time I hear Gerry Adams stand up and mangle the language I know I'm less and less likely to ever return to it.

fkt · 07-04-2011 08:22PM

Aimsigh wrote: »

Ya, I'm sure your in a great position to judge that.

NUIG

I suppose he should have talked to you and gotten your insight on the issue, given that your in such a good position to say and all. Bet he feels so embarresed now.

If he can write a whole book on the positives of it, surely you can make just one economic arguement in favour of it?

Mike 1972 · 07-04-2011 08:24PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

How many times have you been mistaken for English while on holiday abroad?

"Oh, no, I'm not English. I'm Irish!"

As I was brought up in a household with no hatred for England it really doesnt bother me that much. I just point out Im Irish and move on

in the hope that the next question isint about religion

. I doubt too many Canadians, New Zelanders, Austrians, Belgians etc get too bothered at peoples mistaken initial assumptions regarding their Nationality either.

fkt · 07-04-2011 08:24PM

karma_ wrote: »

No one wins a debate on AH, the best you can hope to do is get your retaliation in first.

You still haven't answered my question. The sooner you answer, the sooner I can go watching cartoons.

Aimsigh · 07-04-2011 08:25PM

hmmm wrote: »

When I was at school we weren't taught the Irish language during "Irish class".

We were taught how we should be god fearing Catholics who obeyed our Bishop and priests, wrapped in an Irish flag spitting at the Brits and cheering on the IRA and the only sports we should watch or take part in were GAA sports. Irish class wasn't about a language, it was about indoctrination.

So no, I don't hate the language, I hate what it stood for and what in many ways it still stands for. Separate the politics from the language and maybe I'll give it a second chance, but every time I hear Gerry Adams stand up and mangle the language I know I'm less and less likely to ever return to it.

Ya I know how you feel, Every time I hear Paisely making some stupid sectarian comment. I just wish they sould separate the English language from Politics.:rolleyes:

karma_ · 07-04-2011 08:26PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

As I was brought up in a household with no hatred for England it really doesnt bother me that much. I just point out Im Irish and move on
in the hope that the next question isint about religion
. I doubt too many Canadians, New Zelanders, Austrians, Belgians etc get too bothered at peoples mistaken initial assumptions regarding their Nationality either.

Try telling that to the Canadian you just asked was American.

Snakeblood · 07-04-2011 08:26PM

hmmm wrote: »

When I was at school we weren't taught the Irish language during "Irish class".

We were taught how we should be god fearing Catholics who obeyed our Bishop and priests, wrapped in an Irish flag spitting at the Brits and cheering on the IRA and the only sports we should watch or take part in were GAA sports. Irish class wasn't about a language, it was about indoctrination.

So no, I don't hate the language, I hate what it stood for and what in many ways it still stands for. Separate the politics from the language and maybe I'll give it a second chance, but every time I hear Gerry Adams stand up and mangle the language I know I'm less and less likely to ever return to it.

I was taught Peig. Irish was actually my best subject. I just didn't like having to learn something I'd never seen a benefit to.

I wouldn't be bothered by other arseholes ruining Irish for you. There's enough cuntbags speaking English, after all. You don't see people not speaking English because of the BNP

Snakeblood · 07-04-2011 08:27PM

karma_ wrote: »

No one wins a debate on AH, the best you can hope to do is get your retaliation in first.

That's sad.

Irish and its detractors.

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