Irish and its detractors.

Aimsigh

I have seen some amazing feets of Logical dexterity when it comes to arguing against Irish, If the language's detractors are to be believed Irish is a Dead peasent language with loads of made up words, that is too purist to borrow words from other languages, that everyone hates and is spoken by elitists who only send their kids to Gaelscoils for racist reasons.



If rich people don't speak Irish it's a peasant language, if they do its a snob language.

When students are mandated merely to sit in an Irish class for two hours a week by their school to receive a capitation grant, Irish is being forced upon them, yet people chose to speak English out of their own free will, this despite all education, administration, legislation, commerce and even religion having been mandated (by ecclesiastical or governmental authority) to be conducted through English (or English and latin).

If the Gaelscoileanna are underpopulated, it's because people hate Irish, but if they are overpopulated it's because parents are racist, not because people love Irish.

If Irish speakers don't speak Irish in public, it's because they don't exist, if they do they're trying to prevent foreigners from hearing them, or are purposely being rude.

If there is no employment in Irish, it's because Irish is a useless language not worth learning, if there is, it's because Irish speakers are selfishly wanting government money for themselves.

If Irish has more borrowings than English, it's because Irish is an inferior language with a limited vocabularly, if it has less, it's because Irish isn't as open to borrowings or as international as English.

If a person is good at Irish, it's because of their own personal ability and natural flare for languages, if a person is bad at Irish it's because of the teacher.



Needless to say, this list is hardly exaustive, has anyone got a few more examples?

Hookah

Aimsigh wrote: »

Needless to say, this list is hardly exaustive, has anyone got a few more examples?

It's useless in today's world?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

... if someone says they don't think Irish should be compulsory for the leaving cert, they are automatically anti-Irish and are tyring to kill off the language.

cml387

If God had wanted us to speak Irish he wouldn't have invented Peig.

super_furry

cml387 wrote: »

If God had wanted us to speak Irish he wouldn't have invented Peig.

Or the Brits.

LEG IT!

Kettle316

@Hookah just smashed your entire argument OP!!

At least learning French, German or Spanish opens up new doors for you later in life!!

Learning Irish in school is a pain in the arse that doesnt benefit your later life in any way!!

chin_grin

Kettle316 wrote: »

@Hookah just smashed your entire argument OP!!

At least learning French, German or Spanish opens up new doors for you later in life!!

Learning Irish in school is a pain in the arse that doesnt benefit your later life in any way!!

...............you forgot to mention Mandarin.

mehfesto

Ah, I remember the time I was in Austria at a Restaurant and the waiter spoke no English. She tried her best, god bless 'er.

'Deutsch?' She asked. I shook my head.
'Espanyol?' No joy.
'Francais', 'Fraid not.

She pointed to Russia on the map in a last ditch attempt, then gave up. All her language were no use to me.


'Gaeilge?' I enquired.

ride-the-spiral

And if the pro-Irish camp is to be believed then Irish is a living language which is used everyday all over the world, yet making it optional for the leaving certificate will be killing it.

chin_grin

mehfesto wrote: »

'Gaeilge?' I enquired.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSRildGCw64

weldoninhio

Aimsigh wrote: »

I have seen some amazing feets of Logical dexterity when it comes to arguing against Irish, If the language's detractors are to be believed Irish is a Dead peasent language with loads of made up words, that is too purist to borrow words from other languages, that everyone hates and is spoken by elitists who only send their kids to Gaelscoils for racist reasons.



If rich people don't speak Irish it's a peasant language, if they do its a snob language.

When students are mandated merely to sit in an Irish class for two hours a week by their school to receive a capitation grant, Irish is being forced upon them, yet people chose to speak English out of their own free will, this despite all education, administration, legislation, commerce and even religion having been mandated (by ecclesiastical or governmental authority) to be conducted through English (or English and latin).

If the Gaelscoileanna are underpopulated, it's because people hate Irish, but if they are overpopulated it's because parents are racist, not because people love Irish.

If Irish speakers don't speak Irish in public, it's because they don't exist, if they do they're trying to prevent foreigners from hearing them, or are purposely being rude.

If there is no employment in Irish, it's because Irish is a useless language not worth learning, if there is, it's because Irish speakers are selfishly wanting government money for themselves.

If Irish has more borrowings than English, it's because Irish is an inferior language with a limited vocabularly, if it has less, it's because Irish isn't as open to borrowings or as international as English.

If a person is good at Irish, it's because of their own personal ability and natural flare for languages, if a person is bad at Irish it's because of the teacher.



Needless to say, this list is hardly exaustive, has anyone got a few more examples?

If someone makes up a thread about languages, then uses the incorrect spelling on his 6th word, its a fail!

fkt

It is a complete disgrace that we waste so much valuable learning time for the next generation on this.

The Chinese have to learn English, we have to learn Irish.

Sums up the embarrassing state of this country.

cml387

We were supposed to add more posts supporting the OP's argument.I feel such a fool now.

Aimsigh

Kettle316 wrote: »

@Hookah just smashed your entire argument OP!!

At least learning French, German or Spanish opens up new doors for you later in life!!

Learning Irish in school is a pain in the arse that doesnt benefit your later life in any way!!

Tell that to the thousands of people who earn their Living through the Irish Language:rolleyes:

karma_

fkt wrote: »

It is a complete disgrace that we waste so much valuable learning time for the next generation on this.

The Chinese have to learn English, we have to learn Irish.

Sums up the embarrassing state of this country.

I realise this is AH, still though, this is a hell of a leap.

cml387

Aimsigh wrote: »

Tell that to the thousands of people who earn their Living through the Irish Language:rolleyes:

I think you mean the state subsidised Irish language industry,civil servants pointlessly translating documents etc. etc.

Aimsigh

karma_ wrote: »

I realise this is AH, still though, this is a hell of a leap.

I refer you to the OP.:D

PeterIanStaker

The OP has been arrested on charges of treason, and has been taken away for interrogation, and his fingernails are being pulled out as we speak.


Go raibh maith agaibh,


Colonel K Myers, KGB VC WAN KR, Viceroy, Governor-General & Inquisitor-in-Chief.

fkt

Aimsigh wrote: »

Tell that to the thousands of people who earn their Living through the Irish Language:rolleyes:

Teachers. But thats all it benefits, and that brings no benefit to society. You might aswell employ a teacher to teach students how to w*nk for a half an hour every day, and then send them through three years education so those students can go and teach it all over again. It's an endless circle which wastes time and money.

Pherekydes

fkt wrote: »

It is a complete disgrace that we waste so much valuable learning time for the next generation on this.

The Chinese have to learn English, we have to learn Irish.

Sums up the embarrassing state of this country.

Compare like with like.

The Chinese must learn their own language, plus English.

We learn our own language, plus English, so what's the big difficulty?

As for the argument that Irish is useless on the world stage, so's Finnish, or Norwegian. No one else in the world speaks either of these languages, yet they conduct all of their day-to-day business through their own languages and yet they manage just fine on the world stage. This gives them their own national identity, something which we are losing bit by bit. How many times have you been mistaken for English while on holiday abroad?

"Oh, no, I'm not English. I'm Irish!"

karma_

fkt wrote: »

Teachers. But thats all it benefits, and that brings no benefit to society. You might aswell employ a teacher to teach students how to w*nk for a half an hour every day, and then send them through three years education so those students can go and teach it all over again. It's an endless circle which wastes time and money.

You should get a job at the Daily Mail.

Pace2008

This is stroked straight from politics.ie, complete with persistent, bizarre misspellings.

fkt

Pherekydes wrote: »

Compare like with like.

The Chinese must learn their own language, plus English.

We learn our own language, plus English, so what's the big difficulty?

As for the argument that Irish is useless on the world stage, so's Finnish, or Norwegian. No one else in the world speaks either of these languages, yet they conduct all of their day-to-day business through their own languages and yet they manage just fine on the world stage. This gives them their own national identity, something which we are losing bit by bit. How many times have you been mistaken for English while on holiday abroad?

"Oh, no, I'm not English. I'm Irish!"

Irish isn't our language though.

Irish learn English because we use it every day. We should have another one compulsory that benefits us on the world stage.

The Finnish and Norweigans use Finnish and Norweigan, and probably another that benefits them on the world stage.

The thing is, the pro-Irish people know their wrong. They're just embarrassed to admit it because once they start arguing their point, they feel they have to continue

Hookah

Pace2008 wrote: »

This is stroked straight from politics.ie, complete with persistent, bizarre misspellings.

Pla-gaeilge-iarism?

Aimsigh

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

The OP has been arrested on charges of treason, and has been taken away for interrogation, and his fingernails are being pulled out as we speak.


Go raibh maith agaibh,


Colonel K Myers, KGB VC WAN KR, Viceroy, Governor-General & Inquisitor-in-Chief.

TOKENISM!!! Seize Him!

mickoneill30

Pherekydes wrote: »

Compare like with like.


....
yet they conduct all of their day-to-day business through their own languages and yet they manage just fine on the world stage.

That's not comparing like with like. I left secondary 20 years ago. I haven't conducted one bit of business in Irish in Ireland since.
Having it forced on me made me resent it though.

I'm not embarrassed not being able to speak it though. What is embarrassing is travelling around Europe and having people having to speak to me in my native language because the languages I knew best were English & Irish.

fkt

karma_ wrote: »

You should get a job at the Daily Mail.

Am I wrong?

karma_

fkt wrote: »

Irish isn't our language though.

Irish learn English because we use it every day. We should have another one compulsory that benefits us on the world stage.

The Finnish and Norweigans use Finnish and Norweigan, and probably another that benefits them on the world stage.

The thing is, the pro-Irish people know their wrong. They're just embarrassed to admit it because once they start arguing their point, they feel they have to continue

Because you don't use it does not mean others on the island do not.

The fact is, that research has proven that learning a second language at an early age improves your ability to learn further languages.

The old argument about having Irish forced down your throat is just that, old, even though most schools in Ireland learn French right up to 3rd year and most offer German, how many Irish people speak French or German? Still though, lets blame the teaching of Irish for the failure.

karma_

fkt wrote: »

Am I wrong?

Completely, utterly, totally, unequivocally wrong.

Pace2008

karma_ wrote: »

Because you don't use it does not mean others on the island do not.

The fact is, that research has proven that learning a second language at an early age improves your ability to learn further languages.

Does the second language have to be Irish to confer you with this advantage?

fkt

karma_ wrote: »

Because you don't use it does not mean others on the island do not.

The fact is, that research has proven that learning a second language at an early age improves your ability to learn further languages.

The old argument about having Irish forced down your throat is just that, old, even though most schools in Ireland learn French right up to 3rd year and most offer German, how many Irish people speak French or German? Still though, lets blame the teaching of Irish for the failure.

You accept I don't use it, so why should it be compulsory?

karma_

Pace2008 wrote: »

Does the second language have to be Irish to confer you with this advantage?

I would think it matters little what the second language learned is. However, considering we are Irish, it makes sense culturally. The point is, that learning Irish should not be detrimental to the learning of languages, rather beneficial.

fkt

karma_ wrote: »

I would think it matters little what the second language learned is. However, considering we are Irish, it makes sense culturally. The point is, that learning Irish should not be detrimental to the learning of languages, rather beneficial.

I'm doing my LC orals this week, so I think I'm in a good position to say - It's not beneficial. In any way.

karma_

fkt wrote: »

I'm doing my LC orals this week, so I think I'm in a good position to say - It's not beneficial. In any way.

Well that explains why your arguments have been so childlike.

orourkeda

Aimsigh wrote: »

I have seen some amazing feets of Logical dexterity when it comes to arguing against Irish, If the language's detractors are to be believed Irish is a Dead peasent language with loads of made up words, that is too purist to borrow words from other languages, that everyone hates and is spoken by elitists who only send their kids to Gaelscoils for racist reasons.



If rich people don't speak Irish it's a peasant language, if they do its a snob language.

When students are mandated merely to sit in an Irish class for two hours a week by their school to receive a capitation grant, Irish is being forced upon them, yet people chose to speak English out of their own free will, this despite all education, administration, legislation, commerce and even religion having been mandated (by ecclesiastical or governmental authority) to be conducted through English (or English and latin).

If the Gaelscoileanna are underpopulated, it's because people hate Irish, but if they are overpopulated it's because parents are racist, not because people love Irish.

If Irish speakers don't speak Irish in public, it's because they don't exist, if they do they're trying to prevent foreigners from hearing them, or are purposely being rude.

If there is no employment in Irish, it's because Irish is a useless language not worth learning, if there is, it's because Irish speakers are selfishly wanting government money for themselves.

If Irish has more borrowings than English, it's because Irish is an inferior language with a limited vocabularly, if it has less, it's because Irish isn't as open to borrowings or as international as English.

If a person is good at Irish, it's because of their own personal ability and natural flare for languages, if a person is bad at Irish it's because of the teacher.



Needless to say, this list is hardly exaustive, has anyone got a few more examples?

How about Irish is a useless, piece of sh1t dead language.

Aimsigh

orourkeda wrote: »

How about Irish is a useless, piece of sh1t dead language.

LOL at troll.:rolleyes:

fkt

karma_ wrote: »

Well that explains why your arguments have been so childlike.

Did you miss my question at the top of the page?

Snakeblood

karma_ wrote: »

Because you don't use it does not mean others on the island do not.

The fact is, that research has proven that learning a second language at an early age improves your ability to learn further languages.

Just because the vast minority use Irish doesn't mean the others do.

The 'Irish as a second language helps learn others' argument is inane. It disregards the possibility of using a more useful language.

karma_

fkt wrote: »

Did you miss my question at the top of the page?

Don't you have cartoons to watch or something?

karma_

Snakeblood wrote: »

Just because the vast minority use Irish doesn't mean the others do.

The 'Irish as a second language helps learn others' argument is inane. It disregards the possibility of using a more useful language.

Yet, even though most Irish students learn French for a period of not less than 3 years, how many of them speak French?

Snakeblood

karma_ wrote: »

Don't you have cartoons to watch or something?

Is that really how you talk to people?

Pwindedd

I'm not against the learning of Irish - just the sheer compulsoriness of it. Why not state that at Junior Cert level two extra languages should be learned - French, German, Spanish or Irish for example and let each family decide the two chosen. My daughter hates Irish but loves learning German - who's to say she wouldn't love French or Spanish more than Irish - she's doing really well in all her other subjects but the school keep drawing attention to the fact that she's not doing well in Irish. C'mon every kid has a duff subject ! She had to chose between Business Studies and Domestic Science (both far more valuable life skills IMO) yet is forced to learn a language that is neither her native tongue nor technically a foreign language either. I understand the need to keep the language alive, but this should be through love of the language not at gunpoint.

cml387

orourkeda wrote: »

How about Irish is a useless, piece of sh1t dead language.

The supporters and opponents of An Teanga Naisunta are fated ever to stand on both sides throwing insults at each other for ever and ever.

My experience of Irish is from school,and it was an unremitting nightmare of novels and poetry about how we were all poor and nobody suffered like us and poor us and god help us sure wouldn't you pity us and bog and famine and Wicked English.

Possibly if there had been some effort to make it a more uplifting experience it wouldn't have been so awful.

However I resent the vast amounts of public money wasted (and even supporters of Irish must admit this) to make us bilingual.

karma_

Snakeblood wrote: »

Is that really how you talk to people?

What makes you ask that?

Snakeblood

karma_ wrote: »

Yet, even though most Irish students learn French for a period of not less than 3 years, how many of them speak French?

Counting the ones who are working in localisation, in multinationals, in Irish companies who work with foreign companies, or who have emigrated, or who have gone on holiday somewhere else? No idea. I'm willing to wager a lot more have used French to communicate than have used Irish though.

fkt

karma_ wrote: »

Don't you have cartoons to watch or something?

Is the fact you know you're wrong the reason you find the need to resort to personal insults rather than answering a basic question that anyone who believes what in what they're arguing for should be able to answer?

Snakeblood

karma_ wrote: »

What makes you ask that?

Because it's rude as hell and if you're trying to win a debate, you're not going to, if you're trying to persuade anyone who disagrees with your position you won't and if you're trying to insult someone who hasn't actually insulted you, you're succeeding. You're coming across like an arsehole.

karma_

Snakeblood wrote: »

Counting the ones who are working in localisation, in multinationals, in Irish companies who work with foreign companies, or who have emigrated, or who have gone on holiday somewhere else? No idea. I'm willing to wager a lot more have used French to communicate than have used Irish though.

The point is, that argument is a non sequitur. Those who want to learn Irish or French will, and will successfully. Those who fail to do so appear to blame the fact they have been taught Irish as the reason for this failure.

Snakeblood

karma_ wrote: »

The point is, that argument is a non sequitur. Those who want to learn Irish or French will, and will successfully. Those who fail to do so appear to blame the fact they have been taught Irish as the reason for this failure.

No. Those people who don't want to learn Irish will still be forced to waste their time learning when they could have been learning something else.

Aimsigh

fkt wrote: »

I'm doing my LC orals this week, so I think I'm in a good position to say - It's not beneficial. In any way.

Ya, I'm sure your in a great position to judge that.

NUIG

The promotion of Irish has a positive influence on Ireland’s socio-economic development and the language should have a central role in the effort now needed to rebuild the country. That’s according to Dr. John Walsh, Lecturer in Irish, the author of a new book entitled Contests and Contexts: The Irish Language and Ireland’s Socio-Economic Development.

I suppose he should have talked to you and gotten your insight on the issue, given that your in such a good position to say and all. Bet he feels so embarresed now.

Snakeblood

Aimsigh wrote: »

Ya, I'm sure your in a great position to judge that.

[URL=http://www.nuigalway.ie/languages_literatures_cultures/recent_developments.html[/URL]




I suppose he should have talked to you and gotten your insight on the issue, given that your in such a good position to say and all. Bet he feels so embarresed now.

John Walsh, lecturer in Irish, talking about how good learning Irish is. I find it amazing.