Little Scumbags! Nature or Nurture?

Son Of A Vidic · 07-04-2011 01:16AM

Storminateacup wrote: »

I disagree with you OP.

I know a family, really decent well educated parents, 2 kids, a boy and a girl. The girl is polite, nice girl, very timid. The boy is what you would describe as a "scumbag". Both raised in the same envirnoment, both with the same parenting. One just turned out to be utterly wild, with aspirations to be wilder, by the looks of things.

Friends/peer pressure plays a big part in all of this, perhaps he's hanging out with a bunch of fcukwits?

RichieC · 07-04-2011 01:18AM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Friends/peer pressure plays a big part in all of this, perhaps he's hanging out with a bunch of fcukwits?

Which all falls under "nurture" IMO.

Joekers · 07-04-2011 01:38AM

Its defo to do with the parenting I myself from the Liberties grew up with a lot of scumbags (most now locked up for dealing drugs) but even though I hung around with them when they were lets say throwing eggs at cars on the street I would never join in and be called a Faggit or I was gay it never bothered me not gay nor faggit just knew that it was wrong what they were doing I knew that if my moma or dad or nan found out what I was doing they woulda spanked my ass

So even though I grew up in a pretty rough part I still knew the difference and that was down to my parents and their parents and so on and so forth....:D

MardiB · 07-04-2011 01:55AM

RichieC wrote: »

Which all falls under "nurture" IMO.

I don't think it does. Nurture equals family. There are plenty of decent parents in disadvantaged areas. The area equals environment and I think this plays as huge part. Kid falls in with a bad crowd and acts like a little scummer. That's learnt behaviour but not necessarily from the parents.

sandmanporto · 07-04-2011 02:10AM

bit of both. I was raised in a home that enforced respect for others! It depends on the parents! But i'm a very polite person and female bitch receptionists treat me like **** and i smile and take it. Two extremes. How do delinquants feel about how snobs treat them?
Scumbags and stuck ups are the worst! Im in the middle thank god!

sandmanporto · 07-04-2011 02:17AM

D

OutlawPete · 07-04-2011 11:28AM

Surprised at the Poll results so far, as whenever I have heard people like Ian Huntley discussed, it's usually put down to 'Nature' - that the guy was/is "evil". Same with James Bolger's killers, the majority it seemed would believe that 'Nature' played a strong part in it all.

There has also been many studies which point towards focal frontal lobe dysfunction anti-social behaviour in kids (and adults).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1737651/

Interestinly, the conclusions of another study suggested:

"If computer games are the sole or main source of stimulation over a prolonged period of time when the brain is developing, this could result in an under-developed frontal lobe and the behavioural problems associated with this,"

problemchimp · 07-04-2011 11:36AM

OutlawPete wrote: »

On my way home tonight on the 77 bus an it was bricked by a few little scumbags as it turned up past the Coombe/Liberties. Fair sized brick smacked the window two inches from this girls face, if it had of done more than shatter the glass, would have ripped her face apart for sure. So we all stream of the bus and wait for the next one and as it turns the corner, another brick smacks that (not sure if it went through as we were just getting into a taxi).

On the journey back the conversation started about why these little scumbags are in fact: 'little scumbags'.

I say it's more nurture than anything else as that is just my experience really, any little fcukers/scumbags I knew growing up, regularly got beatings growing up and their parents little respect nor time for them. Person I was with disagrees as she was brought up in a tough area and points out that many kids there had very hard and often times traumatic childhoods and not all of them turn out to be like their parents and I guess that's a fair point.

So, what says you ..

More Nurture and parents have the power to turn children into considerate and productive adults or is it more Nature and there's not really a whole lot of an effect adults can have on children if they are inherently bad and/or indeed evil?

Maybe the taxi driver who took you home did it to get a bit of business.

Hookah · 07-04-2011 11:43AM

I've just started reading Stephen Pinker's 'Blank State'.

Gimme a few days and I'll come back with all the answers.

the groutch · 07-04-2011 11:46AM

if you have two scumbag parents raising a kid, chances are the kid will end up a scumbag too, it's all about environment imo

sensibleken · 07-04-2011 11:55AM

No excuse, nature or nurture.

I grew up in a deprived and rough area, subjected to beatings, surrounded by thieving scummers, drug dealers, joyriders etc, had a dysfuncional home life. and I have never done anything criminal or intentionally harmed another person in my life. Why, because I know its a scummy thing to do.

My girlfriend is a traveller who had very tough problems in her home life growing up and is the most well adjusted and kind person I've ever met.

A cousin of mine comes from a great background, lovely home life, one son successfull and sane, the other a scummer who has gotten 3 women pregnant and then done a runner leaving his own parents to support the kids

People need to take responsibility for themselves and not constantly blame others for their own actions, but more importantly the judiciary need to stop taking it into account.

Do people think that the scummers throwing bricks don't know it was a scummy thing to do

Morlar · 07-04-2011 12:05PM

It is parenting first, enviroment second, nature has very little to do with it in my view. Also I think having a criminal justice system that offers no meaningful deterrent doesn't help anyone.

Ectoplasm · 07-04-2011 12:15PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Surprised at the Poll results so far, as whenever I have heard people like Ian Huntley discussed, it's usually put down to 'Nature' - that the guy was/is "evil". Same with James Bolger's killers, the majority it seemed would believe that 'Nature' played a strong part in it all.

There has also been many studies which point towards focal frontal lobe dysfunction anti-social behaviour in kids (and adults).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1737651/

I think the cases you're talking about there are outliers really. There is some distance from some little git throwing rocks to killing - although I do accept that it's a continuum; people rarely wake up and kill someone, there is usually a pattern of scumbaggery to be found in their past.

I also think that there is some cold comfort to be found in saying that people who do awful things are innately like that, that they are 'evil' or 'damaged'. I don't know if that is true, I suspect it varies from case to case, but I think sometimes we like to distance ourselves from our own innate capacity, as a species, to be violent.

The conclusions of the study you quoted are particularly interesting in light of the link suggested by the other studies. It suggests that 'nurture' (or as I said earlier a lack of nurture, because if a kids sole point of stimulation is coming from a video game that is shameful neglect) can actually have a physical effect on 'nature'.

fakearms123 · 07-04-2011 12:15PM

Gentlemen, we can rebuild them. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world's first bionic men. Scumbags will be that men. Better than they were before. Better...stronger...faster. WEEEAAARRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNN DAAAHHH DAAAAAAHHH DAAAHHHH DAAAAAHHHH

Seifer · 07-04-2011 12:15PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Surprised at the Poll results so far, as whenever I have heard people like Ian Huntley discussed, it's usually put down to 'Nature' - that the guy was/is "evil". Same with James Bolger's killers, the majority it seemed would believe that 'Nature' played a strong part in it all.

There has also been many studies which point towards focal frontal lobe dysfunction anti-social behaviour in kids (and adults).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1737651/

Interestinly, the conclusions of another study suggested:

Why are you bring sociopathic murderers into it? Your OP used the example of throwing bricks at a bus. They are two completely different scenarios.

It's almost exclusively nurture in my opinion.

ceadaoin. · 07-04-2011 12:18PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Surprised at the Poll results so far, as whenever I have heard people like Ian Huntley discussed, it's usually put down to 'Nature' - that the guy was/is "evil". Same with James Bolger's killers, the majority it seemed would believe that 'Nature' played a strong part in it all.

There has also been many studies which point towards focal frontal lobe dysfunction anti-social behaviour in kids (and adults).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1737651/

Interestinly, the conclusions of another study suggested:

That's very interesting.

I think it's mostly nuture. However, it's clear that some people just have it in their dispostion to behave anti-socially to different extents.

I guess it's when the 2 factors combine it creates the really dangerous types of knackers who are quite often the ringleaders in this sort of thing.

OutlawPete · 07-04-2011 12:22PM

Seifer wrote: »

Why are you bring sociopathic murderers into it? Your OP used the example of throwing bricks at a bus. They are two completely different scenarios.

Cause I do not disassociate the two. Human behaviour is human behaviour. If kids throw bricks at a window of a bus, where there is a strong chance of splitting someone open, then they are just as likely to throw bricks directly at people (as was the case (in part) with James Bolger).

Lemegeton · 07-04-2011 12:24PM

its nurture all the way. nobody is born an evil little piece of filth.
sure not everybody from a broken or rough home turns out bad but most do.

holystungun9 · 07-04-2011 12:32PM

It's the parents/guardians. Too many hopeless people with no cop-on having kids. Kids learn from their environment and the standards set for them. If they don't get a good grounding in respect and how to treat people when they are younger and get away with it.......well, what do you think?

stovelid · 07-04-2011 12:43PM

Nuture mostly, I guess although I think some people are just born that way.

If you're brought up in a decent environment, any natural badness in you is more likely to be expressed in less dramatic ways.

Some people are strong enough to overcome a polluting environment; some are not. Some are brought up in a polluting environment but have strong parental support; some don't.

Hard to hard and fast about it.

I've no doubt that a lot of normal-achieving decent people that fulminate on here about scumbags all the time would themselves be begging for gear in town if they were brought up in a deprived environment.

bnt · 07-04-2011 12:51PM

Back in the mid-90s, a book came out called The Bell Curve. While it isn't about nature vs. nurture per se, it does document the distribution of intelligence among different "classes" of people. The authors found that populations of poor people in the USA do indeed have lower intelligence on average*, and suggest that that is a factor in why they are poor. Their main concerns are with the way social policies in the USA at that time seemed to be encouraging higher breeding rates among the poor, which went against the natural trend in birthrates.

The book was subjected to some harsh criticism too e.g. the usual complaints about the validity of IQ and other intelligence tests were brought up, and accusations of cultural elitism. The Wikipedia article has a good description of the book and the arguments for and against it. Ireland may be smaller, but from reading the comments on this and other threads, I think the book's arguments, and the responses to them, are highly relevant to this question.

* Note: the "bell curve" is a topic in Statistics, which deals only with large populations of people (or whatever is being analyzed). It does not say anything about individuals and their cases. Individual exceptions are possible, but do not invalidate the statistics. I say this in case people are tempted to say "well, I know someone who bucked the trend and did well in school, despite being from a poor background, therefore the whole theory is rubbish". That's not how it works - and exceptions can go either way, leading to people with intelligence significantly better or worse than the average.

wild_cat · 07-04-2011 12:57PM

I just moved away from that area a few weeks ago OP.

Seen a fair few interesting things around there to say the least. But never had any trouble myself, once two lads about 11 had two of those bendy flag poles you see on bikes.

They were walking along hitting random things with them and then when they got to a bus stop hit a couple of people on the arse with them. We just walked by and they started to trot along behind us, I was afraid I was gonna get hit as they approached but they started to walk along beside us still randomly hitting stuff. So I just said to them...

Me - "Here lads where'd ye pick those up?"
Gurriers - "Dunno, do you want them?"
Me - "Yeah, give us a look at them sure!"

They handed them over and just went about on their merry way. We put them in the next bin. Two of them were friendly and seemed oblivious that they might have hurt people.....

Just seemed like they'd no sense of right or wrong and were completely innocent to the fact.

But I can't understand what parent would never mention to their kid that its wrong to hit people with random stuff, they thought it was just funny.

The best one though:

Standing outside a take away on my phone, hear a shout of "here love, put that phone in your pocket around here" by a chap about 15 as he tagged a wall.

Cookie_Monster · 07-04-2011 01:05PM

Nurture, or more correctly the lack of a wooden spoon in the house would be the primary reason I reckon. i bet you can correlate the fall in wooden spoon ownership and use with that of the rising scumbag population

stovelid · 07-04-2011 01:16PM

Should also be pointed out that when you discussing kids that brick buses, the overwhelming majority of people from "deprived" areas would also be pissed off about it.

Aoifey! · 07-04-2011 01:25PM

I would go with nurture more so, although there might be minor genetic influences I would say they would be very minor and things that could be over come.

People are a product of the environment in which they are raised in. 'Nurture' does not exclusively mean the parents although they do have a major role. You also have to take into account their peers and social group, neighbourhood, teachers or other role models and a lot more of outside influences. Someone can come from a good, high up background and become a 'scumbag'. Someone can come from a bad, 'scumbaggy' background and become a model citizen.

It is not all black and white. You have to look at each situation individually. If you come from a known 'scumbag' neighbourhood then you're more likely to associate with scumbags and become like them, but not necessarily.

stovelid · 07-04-2011 01:33PM

sensibleken wrote: »

I grew up in a deprived and rough area, subjected to beatings, surrounded by thieving scummers, drug dealers, joyriders etc,

So did I and I have a decent job now and live in a quiet area but you can't always just take yourself as an example to extrapolate from. Some people will transcend surroundings - either through luck or ability - and some won't.

Also the majority of people live lawful, decent lives in the same areas as we grew up in but just because they still live there hardly means they have failed in some way even if they or their kids talk and dress in a certain way or only achieved a certain level of education.

Faith+1 · 07-04-2011 01:36PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Get the Gardaí after them so they can arrest them, detain them ... and rape them.

Very true.

Knasher · 07-04-2011 01:41PM

While nature definitely plays a part I think nurture is the main culprit. As such the little scumbag is, in many ways, a victim of his/her own behaviour, so while I dislike them I also have some sympathy for them because in the end they are messing their own lives up.

That being said I think most of it comes from the peer group than anything else, the older ones that are looked up to guiding the younger ones into the same behaviour so the cycle continues down the generations. The most important thing in my view is to split those groups up as much as possible. I don't know how schools are structured in general, but mine always made an effort to split the years up as much as possible, perhaps for this very reason.

Secondly, society has become so concerned with protecting children that we have come to the point where we are actually hurting them. People in general, but especially children need to fear the consequences of their actions, at least until they're at an age where they can properly empathise with other people. The view among the youth is that no matter what they do there are no consequences to be faced (except in the most superficial way) until they become 18. I agree that children should be protected, but they also need to be protected from themselves.

To be honest I don't lay all the blame on the parents. Yes there are definitely some bad parents out there that encourage this kind of behaviour and there are many parents whose children would benefit immensely from a more active role in their lives and it's from their parents they should learn consequence. But its also true that raising a kid correctly in a city is much harder that in the country so I can't help but cut them a little slack.

prinz · 07-04-2011 02:05PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Surprised at the Poll results so far, as whenever I have heard people like Ian Huntley discussed, it's usually put down to 'Nature' - that the guy was/is "evil". Same with James Bolger's killers, the majority it seemed would believe that 'Nature' played a strong part in it all.

Eh, in fairness as has been pointed out you cannot compare little scrotes out on the street hassling people and sadistic torturers and killers.

prinz · 07-04-2011 02:07PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Cause I do not disassociate the two..

Congrats for you but the rest of the world does. A kid nicking a mars bar has a different mentality to someone burglaring an old person's home, tying them up in electrical cord, hanging them upside down off a stairs landing, beating them, and leaving them hanging there upside down to bleed to death.

Little Scumbags! Nature or Nurture?

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