Little Scumbags! Nature or Nurture?

OutlawPete

On my way home tonight on the 77 bus an it was bricked by a few little scumbags as it turned up past the Coombe/Liberties. Fair sized brick smacked the window two inches from this girls face, if it had of done more than shatter the glass, would have ripped her face apart for sure. So we all stream of the bus and wait for the next one and as it turns the corner, another brick smacks that (not sure if it went through as we were just getting into a taxi).

On the journey back the conversation started about why these little scumbags are in fact: 'little scumbags'.

I say it's more nurture than anything else as that is just my experience really, any little fcukers/scumbags I knew growing up, regularly got beatings growing up and their parents little respect nor time for them. Person I was with disagrees as she was brought up in a tough area and points out that many kids there had very hard and often times traumatic childhoods and not all of them turn out to be like their parents and I guess that's a fair point.

So, what says you ..

More Nurture and parents have the power to turn children into considerate and productive adults or is it more Nature and there's not really a whole lot of an effect adults can have on children if they are inherently bad and/or indeed evil?

Dudess

Both - sometimes together, sometimes separately. And sometimes "nurture" as a result of whom they hang around with, not their upbringing.

Kent Brockman

Its a pity you haven't got Neuter down as an option:D

Killer Pigeon

Get the Gardaí after them so they can arrest them, detain them ... and rape them.

Seloth

Hah I'm just writing an essay for college and the author described how the "savages" in society are a product of their sick society environment.

And its quite easy to see,there are more random acts of violence from poorer areas compared to that of wealthier(thats not to say there is neither in both nor that theres no good or bad in each)

pragmatic1

In most cases its nurture but then you've those outliers who were just born sociopaths.

chin_grin

Watch Trading Places!

It could be six of one though. I mean it could be brought back to basic genetics.

Genotype + Environment = Phenotype.

I'm way too tired to flesh out my opinion, so you can...............please.

PK2008

Does it really matter? Either way they're still scumbags

starbelgrade

There are certain areas where you are a hell of a lot more likely to have kids throw bricks at windows of passing buses than others, so anecdotedly, that would suggest that the environment you grow up in has a lot to do with your patterns of behaviour.

Gummy Panda

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Get the Gardaí after them so they can arrest them, detain them ... and rape them.

I like this new An Garda Siochana

Spudmonkey

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Get the Gardaí after them so they can arrest them, detain them ... and rape them.

Hmmm yes, very good.

starbelgrade

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I like this new An Garda Siochana

It's pretty much the same as the old Garda Siochana, only with 20% more added threat of rape.

Storminateacup

I disagree with you OP.

I know a family, really decent well educated parents, 2 kids, a boy and a girl. The girl is polite, nice girl, very timid. The boy is what you would describe as a "scumbag". Both raised in the same envirnoment, both with the same parenting. One just turned out to be utterly wild, with aspirations to be wilder, by the looks of things.

I really dont know what it is. Blame the parents? Society? School? Peers?

Richard Dower

You've got genetic scumbags, generations of utter trash breeding more trash, added with enviroment and no parenting.

RichieC

Storminateacup wrote: »

I disagree with you OP.

I know a family, really decent well educated parents, 2 kids, a boy and a girl. The girl is polite, nice girl, very timid. The boy is what you would describe as a "scumbag". Both raised in the same envirnoment, both with the same parenting. One just turned out to be utterly wild, with aspirations to be wilder, by the looks of things.

I really dont know what it is. Blame the parents? Society? School? Peers?

Was the Girl perhaps the favoured child?

starbelgrade

Richard Dower wrote: »

You've got genetic scumbags

Sounds like a disease.

"Doctor, just tell me - what do the tests say?"

"I'm sorry Mr.Brown, but you have a bad case of genetic scumbags."

Poor Craythur

Mostly nurture, but I reckon there might be genetic factors too.

steddyeddy

100% nurture the basic desires have a genetic basis, its all these kids know "No mans knowledge can go beyond his experience" john locke.

steddyeddy

Poor Craythur wrote: »

Mostly nurture, but I reckon there might be genetic factors too.

Highly unlikely

Storminateacup

RichieC wrote: »

Was the Girl perhaps the favoured child?

I dont think so? I know the boy had problems with his feet when he was born and was bullied in school a lot, so Im guessing, maybe he learned from an early age, to "defend" himself? Getting into fights ect.

I don't know. Theyre like chalk and cheese anyway, and its baffling because Im even guilty of it myself, assuming all those "skobes" wearing shellsuits are from deprived areas, and well -- knackers. They're not always though.

steddyeddy

Storminateacup wrote: »

I dont think so? I know the boy had problems with his feet when he was born and was bullied in school a lot, so Im guessing, maybe he learned from an early age, to "defend" himself? Getting into fights ect.

I don't know. Theyre like chalk and cheese anyway, and its baffling because Im even guilty of it myself, assuming all those "skobes" wearing shellsuits are from deprived areas, and well -- knackers. They're not always though.

Well it could be an example of lack of parenting, the girls bullying could have result in a quieter demeaner.

RichieC

Poor Craythur wrote: »

Mostly nurture, but I reckon there might be genetic factors too.

I think genetics might have a say in minor aspects, like for instance, temper... but being an angry f*cker has never hindered a person from being a productive member of society.

PK2008

Neither, kids choose to be good or bad by the decisions they make everyday - just like the rest of us.

The kids that choose to do bad things are scumbags

Poor Craythur

steddyeddy wrote: »

Highly unlikely

I wouldn't say that. It's mostly nurture though, I reckon.

prinz

Nuture and psychological... a lot of is attention seeking, maladjustment, anti-social, a lot of the time relationship issues with parents, siblings, authority figures.

xoxyx

Storminateacup wrote: »

I disagree with you OP.

I know a family, really decent well educated parents, 2 kids, a boy and a girl. The girl is polite, nice girl, very timid. The boy is what you would describe as a "scumbag". Both raised in the same environment, both with the same parenting. One just turned out to be utterly wild, with aspirations to be wilder, by the looks of things.

I really dont know what it is. Blame the parents? Society? School? Peers?

Who was born first? Was the boy the elder? Did he enter school and become friends with a kid who was bullied by his older brother? Did these boys learn bad behaviour from this older kid. Did they then start acting out?

Or, was the boy younger? Did his sister start school first and make a nice set of friends. Maybe the parents paid a lot of attention to the girl during her first year. The boy resented this and saw school as a means of taking his parents' attention away from him. So, he started school and decided to rebel against the institution that caused his parents to pay him less attention.

There are so many factors.

Who knows!!! It's probably none of those things. But, the point is, that nurture, and the seemingly minor things that happen during your lifetime, have a strong effect.

Aside from various hereditary traits and diseases, I believe that who you become is due to the life that you live, especially (obviously) during your formative years.

I cannot take anybody seriously who says that a person is born evil, good, optimistic, pessimistic, fashion conscious or humourless.

DOC09UNAM

I blame aspartame, too many of them drinking Powerade and getting all crazy off it.

Cypher_sounds

It's the parents fault or lack of!!

eco2live

Environment but mostly parents are the problem. I hate scumbags. They think they can do what they want without fear. There is a serious lack of manners.

Ectoplasm

Mostly nurture - or more accurately, the lack of same. With some kids acting like a little scumbag a way of getting attention; if you get none, then even negative attention is 'good'. I think this is more likely to explain why kids who on the surface of things have every advantage, still behave like gurriers.

With others, it's learned behaviour - they do get attention, even love, but their parents/older siblings/peers are all showing them examples of bad behaviour.

flahavaj

Bottom line in all this is that if your parents are both complete and utter scumbags then you'll need a miracle to avoid being anything other than that yourself.

Son Of A Vidic

Storminateacup wrote: »

I disagree with you OP.

I know a family, really decent well educated parents, 2 kids, a boy and a girl. The girl is polite, nice girl, very timid. The boy is what you would describe as a "scumbag". Both raised in the same envirnoment, both with the same parenting. One just turned out to be utterly wild, with aspirations to be wilder, by the looks of things.

Friends/peer pressure plays a big part in all of this, perhaps he's hanging out with a bunch of fcukwits?

RichieC

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Friends/peer pressure plays a big part in all of this, perhaps he's hanging out with a bunch of fcukwits?

Which all falls under "nurture" IMO.

Joekers

Its defo to do with the parenting I myself from the Liberties grew up with a lot of scumbags (most now locked up for dealing drugs) but even though I hung around with them when they were lets say throwing eggs at cars on the street I would never join in and be called a Faggit or I was gay it never bothered me not gay nor faggit just knew that it was wrong what they were doing I knew that if my moma or dad or nan found out what I was doing they woulda spanked my ass

So even though I grew up in a pretty rough part I still knew the difference and that was down to my parents and their parents and so on and so forth....:D

MardiB

RichieC wrote: »

Which all falls under "nurture" IMO.

I don't think it does. Nurture equals family. There are plenty of decent parents in disadvantaged areas. The area equals environment and I think this plays as huge part. Kid falls in with a bad crowd and acts like a little scummer. That's learnt behaviour but not necessarily from the parents.

sandmanporto

bit of both. I was raised in a home that enforced respect for others! It depends on the parents! But i'm a very polite person and female bitch receptionists treat me like **** and i smile and take it. Two extremes. How do delinquants feel about how snobs treat them?
Scumbags and stuck ups are the worst! Im in the middle thank god!

sandmanporto

D

OutlawPete

Surprised at the Poll results so far, as whenever I have heard people like Ian Huntley discussed, it's usually put down to 'Nature' - that the guy was/is "evil". Same with James Bolger's killers, the majority it seemed would believe that 'Nature' played a strong part in it all.

There has also been many studies which point towards focal frontal lobe dysfunction anti-social behaviour in kids (and adults).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1737651/

Interestinly, the conclusions of another study suggested:

"If computer games are the sole or main source of stimulation over a prolonged period of time when the brain is developing, this could result in an under-developed frontal lobe and the behavioural problems associated with this,"

problemchimp

OutlawPete wrote: »

On my way home tonight on the 77 bus an it was bricked by a few little scumbags as it turned up past the Coombe/Liberties. Fair sized brick smacked the window two inches from this girls face, if it had of done more than shatter the glass, would have ripped her face apart for sure. So we all stream of the bus and wait for the next one and as it turns the corner, another brick smacks that (not sure if it went through as we were just getting into a taxi).

On the journey back the conversation started about why these little scumbags are in fact: 'little scumbags'.

I say it's more nurture than anything else as that is just my experience really, any little fcukers/scumbags I knew growing up, regularly got beatings growing up and their parents little respect nor time for them. Person I was with disagrees as she was brought up in a tough area and points out that many kids there had very hard and often times traumatic childhoods and not all of them turn out to be like their parents and I guess that's a fair point.

So, what says you ..

More Nurture and parents have the power to turn children into considerate and productive adults or is it more Nature and there's not really a whole lot of an effect adults can have on children if they are inherently bad and/or indeed evil?

Maybe the taxi driver who took you home did it to get a bit of business.

Hookah

I've just started reading Stephen Pinker's 'Blank State'.

Gimme a few days and I'll come back with all the answers.

the groutch

if you have two scumbag parents raising a kid, chances are the kid will end up a scumbag too, it's all about environment imo

sensibleken

No excuse, nature or nurture.

I grew up in a deprived and rough area, subjected to beatings, surrounded by thieving scummers, drug dealers, joyriders etc, had a dysfuncional home life. and I have never done anything criminal or intentionally harmed another person in my life. Why, because I know its a scummy thing to do.

My girlfriend is a traveller who had very tough problems in her home life growing up and is the most well adjusted and kind person I've ever met.

A cousin of mine comes from a great background, lovely home life, one son successfull and sane, the other a scummer who has gotten 3 women pregnant and then done a runner leaving his own parents to support the kids

People need to take responsibility for themselves and not constantly blame others for their own actions, but more importantly the judiciary need to stop taking it into account.

Do people think that the scummers throwing bricks don't know it was a scummy thing to do

Morlar

It is parenting first, enviroment second, nature has very little to do with it in my view. Also I think having a criminal justice system that offers no meaningful deterrent doesn't help anyone.

Ectoplasm

OutlawPete wrote: »

Surprised at the Poll results so far, as whenever I have heard people like Ian Huntley discussed, it's usually put down to 'Nature' - that the guy was/is "evil". Same with James Bolger's killers, the majority it seemed would believe that 'Nature' played a strong part in it all.

There has also been many studies which point towards focal frontal lobe dysfunction anti-social behaviour in kids (and adults).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1737651/

I think the cases you're talking about there are outliers really. There is some distance from some little git throwing rocks to killing - although I do accept that it's a continuum; people rarely wake up and kill someone, there is usually a pattern of scumbaggery to be found in their past.

I also think that there is some cold comfort to be found in saying that people who do awful things are innately like that, that they are 'evil' or 'damaged'. I don't know if that is true, I suspect it varies from case to case, but I think sometimes we like to distance ourselves from our own innate capacity, as a species, to be violent.

The conclusions of the study you quoted are particularly interesting in light of the link suggested by the other studies. It suggests that 'nurture' (or as I said earlier a lack of nurture, because if a kids sole point of stimulation is coming from a video game that is shameful neglect) can actually have a physical effect on 'nature'.

fakearms123

Gentlemen, we can rebuild them. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world's first bionic men. Scumbags will be that men. Better than they were before. Better...stronger...faster. WEEEAAARRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNN DAAAHHH DAAAAAAHHH DAAAHHHH DAAAAAHHHH

Seifer

OutlawPete wrote: »

Surprised at the Poll results so far, as whenever I have heard people like Ian Huntley discussed, it's usually put down to 'Nature' - that the guy was/is "evil". Same with James Bolger's killers, the majority it seemed would believe that 'Nature' played a strong part in it all.

There has also been many studies which point towards focal frontal lobe dysfunction anti-social behaviour in kids (and adults).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1737651/

Interestinly, the conclusions of another study suggested:

Why are you bring sociopathic murderers into it? Your OP used the example of throwing bricks at a bus. They are two completely different scenarios.

It's almost exclusively nurture in my opinion.

ceadaoin.

OutlawPete wrote: »

Surprised at the Poll results so far, as whenever I have heard people like Ian Huntley discussed, it's usually put down to 'Nature' - that the guy was/is "evil". Same with James Bolger's killers, the majority it seemed would believe that 'Nature' played a strong part in it all.

There has also been many studies which point towards focal frontal lobe dysfunction anti-social behaviour in kids (and adults).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1737651/

Interestinly, the conclusions of another study suggested:

That's very interesting.

I think it's mostly nuture. However, it's clear that some people just have it in their dispostion to behave anti-socially to different extents.

I guess it's when the 2 factors combine it creates the really dangerous types of knackers who are quite often the ringleaders in this sort of thing.

OutlawPete

Seifer wrote: »

Why are you bring sociopathic murderers into it? Your OP used the example of throwing bricks at a bus. They are two completely different scenarios.

Cause I do not disassociate the two. Human behaviour is human behaviour. If kids throw bricks at a window of a bus, where there is a strong chance of splitting someone open, then they are just as likely to throw bricks directly at people (as was the case (in part) with James Bolger).

Lemegeton

its nurture all the way. nobody is born an evil little piece of filth.
sure not everybody from a broken or rough home turns out bad but most do.

holystungun9

It's the parents/guardians. Too many hopeless people with no cop-on having kids. Kids learn from their environment and the standards set for them. If they don't get a good grounding in respect and how to treat people when they are younger and get away with it.......well, what do you think?

stovelid

Nuture mostly, I guess although I think some people are just born that way.

If you're brought up in a decent environment, any natural badness in you is more likely to be expressed in less dramatic ways.

Some people are strong enough to overcome a polluting environment; some are not. Some are brought up in a polluting environment but have strong parental support; some don't.

Hard to hard and fast about it.

I've no doubt that a lot of normal-achieving decent people that fulminate on here about scumbags all the time would themselves be begging for gear in town if they were brought up in a deprived environment.