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Garda Siochana in Shell to sea sex shocker

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Comments

  • #332
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    gosuckonalemon wrote: »
    If Gardai are not allowed make jokes about rape as they are the people dealing with such cases should that mean it is completely unacceptable for them to make jokes about:
    murder,
    speeding,
    drug dealers etc.?


    You think Speeding Jokes are the same as Rape Jokes?


  • #333
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,079 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    Why are you so anti-gardai? would they not let you join??


    Not anti Gardai, just anti this Garda.

    I have never applied to become a member.


  • #334
    Buceph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    k_mac wrote: »
    What other effect would you intend hurling abuse at someone you don't know to have other than a breach of the peace?


    To answer your question? Someone asked;
    whiteonion wrote: »
    I was not aware it's illegal to make jokes against the gardai. Can you please show me any evidence that it's in fact an arrestable offence?

    You directly responded to that question by saying;
    k_mac wrote: »
    Section 6 of the Public Order Act makes it an offence to use threatening abusive or insulting words or behaviour ina public place.

    You tried to give them impression that a "joke" is "threatening, abusive, or insulting words or behavior." And you left out the part that there must be intent to breach the peace, or failure to give consideration as to whether a breach of the peace would occur, which of course is not something that happens with jokes, as you've indicated by your afforementioned views on the nature of humour. That's lying through ommission.

    Now you're implying that someone asking about joking, was in fact asking about "hurling abuse." You're fabricating things, which is a lie.

    You've lied on two occasions in the immediate situation. Is it a habit of yours to lie?


  • #335
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    whiteonion wrote: »
    They behaved unprofessionally, they should be fired.
    I would be fired if I said the same things at my work, if there is no leniency for me if I screw up there should be no leniency for them either.

    FIRE THEM, put their faces out in the national newspaper so that everyone can see what kind of pigs they are.

    Whiteonion,

    If they had said this directly to the Women then it would have been completely unacceptable and even a different context. They were eejits just joking, not knowingly being taped and got caught with their kn*bs hanging out.

    If private conversations were recorded in the workplace then there would be a lot of people fired from their jobs if that's the case.


  • #336
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    gosuckonalemon wrote: »
    How would such banter have any impact on reporting of rapes?

    One of the main reasons for under-reporting of rapes in Ireland is because very often the victim is so drunk they are not quite sure what actually happened.

    If someone is raped they go to the cops. If they are not happy with how they are treated they can ask for asssistance from another cop.

    I think the publication of that tape will have a bas effect on the number of people reporting rape. You can't apply ordinary logic to the actions of a victim of rape. The experience is practically unparalelled. If these protesters really had a problem with the incident they would have reported the matter to the Ombudsman and the Gardas superiors. Instead they published it in an effort to further their own stupid cause.
    Dodge wrote: »
    To let off steam in a jokey way?

    You honestly don't believe that do you? If some stranger came up to you and called you a filthy c**t you're telling me you'd just laught it off?


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  • #337
    IQDENIED
    Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭IQDENIED


    k_mac wrote: »
    And I bet you think Atari Jaguar is a computer. The meaning of words change faster than the dictionary is updated. I suggest you watch the South Park epsiode about the word "fag".

    You need to go back to school as well by the look of things...

    You are using slang... big difference... slang can be accepted into dictionary by widespread use, still it doesn't mean old meanings are disregarded.
    E.G. What else would I call an embankment constructed to prevent flooding other than a dyke?

    The context of the recorded conversation cannot be fobbed off in anyway or form, i.e. the unconsentual sex with the detainee, wether it was a joke or not is open for discussion, also if it was appropriate behaviour or otherwise that is another debate, don't try tell us up is down and vice versa! Muppet! :pac:


  • #338
    vinchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭vinchick


    gosuckonalemon wrote: »
    How would such banter have any impact on reporting of rapes?

    One of the main reasons for under-reporting of rapes in Ireland is because very often the victim is so drunk they are not quite sure what actually happened.

    If someone is raped they go to the cops. If they are not happy with how they are treated they can ask for asssistance from another cop.

    Not true, you obviously are not familiar with the work that has been done on attrition rates in rape and sexual violence cases.

    This type of "banter" re-enforces the idea that the Gardai will not take a reported offence seriously which is one of the main reasons why people do not report.This has been show time and time again in Victim surveys and interviews.

    That too drunk to remember theme is not prevalent in the research.

    It is not just a case of not being happy with the "cop" and asking for another one. Rape investigations involve an intimate exam often internal and questioning. If victims are treated badly this can lead to extra trauma and victimisation. It is not as easy as going, ah I don't like X so I want to deal with Y. The damage has already been done.

    Check out the SAVI report for an Irish perspective, or the British Crime Survey which has a really good breakdown of reasons for non reporting.


  • #339
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Buceph wrote: »
    To answer your question? Someone asked;



    You directly responded to that question by saying;



    You tried to give them impression that a "joke" is "threatening, abusive, or insulting words or behavior." And you left out the part that there must be intent to breach the peace, or failure to give consideration as to whether a breach of the peace would occur, which of course is not something that happens with jokes, as you've indicated by your afforementioned views on the nature of humour. That's lying through ommission.

    Now you're implying that someone asking about joking, was in fact asking about "hurling abuse." You're fabricating things, which is a lie.

    You've lied on two occasions in the immediate situation. Is it a habit of yours to lie?

    Actually the original post which you replied to was in relation to people being arrested on the street for insulting Gardaí in front of a crowd if I remember correctly.


    EDIT: This one
    My name is URL wrote: »
    I've seen people being bundled into the back of cars for harmlessly taking the piss of them on nights out.


  • #340
    stee.mc79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 130 ✭✭stee.mc79


    mikom wrote: »
    New balls please.

    You can't be serious that ball was clearly in!


  • #341
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    k_mac wrote: »
    You honestly don't believe that do you? If some stranger came up to you and called you a filthy c**t you're telling me you'd just laught it off?

    Thing is that the Gardai didn't go up to the women and say, "I'll rape you" so that argument isn't necessarily the same


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  • #342
    gosuckonalemon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 730 ✭✭✭gosuckonalemon


    fluffyorganic1 wrote: »
    I know god forbid if anything ever happened to me I'd certainly wouldn't like to think that the same guard that I'm pouring my heart out to over a rape crime could then head off to his mates in the canteen and be able to laugh or joke about the issue of rape.................
    I suppose it would not make me as confident that they would be totally in tune with the horrific experience of rape that they could joke about it...

    I just think it's seriously dodgy that a guard could joke about this type of thing!

    As long as the garda acted professionally in dealing with the case and was successful what should it matter what he talks about to his mates in the canteen?
    You can't expect the Garda to become emotionally affected by a rape case he is dealing with. If he did then that would be very unprofessional of him and could impact on the case. Moreso than telling jokes in private.


  • #343
    Duggy747
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    I'm seeing a turn here from reactions where people are painting the Gardaì as untrustworthy when needed to be turned to for rape victims. Purple monkey dishwasher rules show that this story is being picked up as far more mailicious than it actually is as it's being spread about this morning. People seeing the sensationalist headlines and forming an opinion immediately.

    Wiping years of work trying to gain victim's confidence to report cases all because of a stupid joke in a private conversation which held zero malice towards anybody or the horror of rape, itself.

    People acting like the Gardaì can't be trusted with rape cases has a far more dangerous ripple effect than a stupid joke.

    I can't imagine Gardaì being emotionally involved in cases, they'd be personally destroyed and worn out from the things they'd have to deal with on an emotional level.


  • #344
    stee.mc79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 130 ✭✭stee.mc79


    k_mac wrote: »

    You honestly don't believe that do you? If some stranger came up to you and called you a filthy c**t you're telling me you'd just laught it off?

    Gees theres no need to start getting personal!


  • #345
    Dodge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,472 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    k_mac wrote: »
    You honestly don't believe that do you? If some stranger came up to you and called you a filthy c**t you're telling me you'd just laught it off?

    No, I'd probably be pissed off. As I would if one of my work colleagues start joking about rape...


  • #346
    Plazaman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭Plazaman


    whiteonion wrote: »
    They behaved unprofessionally, they should be fired.
    I would be fired if I said the same things at my work, if there is no leniency for me if I screw up there should be no leniency for them either.

    FIRE THEM, put their faces out in the national newspaper so that everyone can see what kind of pigs they are.

    Yes and also fire every Guard that ever jokingly said "I'll murder him..." or "I'll kill him...." as that is equally insulting to murder victims and they'd never be fit to investigate a crime scene with that attitude

    And also fire every Guard that uses foul language and curse words as what sort of moral example are they setting for our children and how are they supposed to respect authority figures who curse.

    And also fire every Guard who uses the terms "Black, Brown, Yellow" as we are a multi-cultural society and should not be using racial terms even when not talking about other races.

    And also fire every Guard who smirks, laughs or grins. It is a serious job being protector of the State, either they take it seriously or they don't.

    And also fire every Guard who is out of uniform. The are sworn to uphold the law 24/7 and being disrespectful to the Irish people by making arrests off duty or out of uniform is disgraceful and disrespectful.

    And also fire every Guard who is married or has a girlfriend/boyfriend. By having carnal relations as a sworn officer of the state is just a crass act of using their authority over a civilian and demeans the other party.

    What else have I missed......


  • #347
    Buceph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    K-9 wrote: »
    Context is vital. Some still think they said it to the woman directly, in that context it's wrong and sackable.

    Some do think that, they're wrong. I know it was said in private.
    In this context they were joking about charging her for not giving her name and deporting her, it's a "jokey" reference to throwing the book at her, nothing else. Do you actually think they meant that they'd threaten her directly with rape?

    No. I don't think they would threaten her with rape. What I have a problem with is their flippant attitude to their professionalism in that they were joking about their dominance over someone in submission and they're hypothetical ability to rape them. They did arrest them, they implied that they could charge them, that they could deport them, and that they could rape them. Even joking that you have the power to do these things and that you would consider them, even in jest is unnacceptable.

    And like you said in the first quote, if they said that to the women they should be sacked. In this case, because it was a fairly disgusting betrayal of their professionalism (even in private) they should get a severe bollocking by whoevers in charge of their station. They should get another severe bollocking from someone even higher up the totem pole. And they should be subject to a fairly frank discussion with someone from the Rape Crisis Centre.

    But yes, I think a lot of people are overreacting in this thread. Just as a lot of people aren't taking it seriously.


  • #348
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Dodge wrote: »
    No, I'd be pissed off. As I would if one of my work colleagues start joking about rape...

    I think you've missed the point of my post. This was in relation to the breach of the peace section of the public order act.


  • #349
    vinchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭vinchick


    fedor.2. wrote: »
    No it wont

    Yes it will and has.

    Take a look at any of the literature of non reporting of offences, not just those of a sexual nature.

    Over and over again around research into non report of assaults, thefts etc. it all comes back to a few themes one of which is.....the police will not take me seriously and will not bother.

    The Gardai are heard making little of offences this re-enforces this idea. Look at the literature, go on, I dare you.:p


  • #350
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Squash or badminton, who doesn't like a game of badminton?

    Rapists.


  • #351
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Buceph wrote: »
    Some do think that, they're wrong. I know it was said in private.



    No. I don't think they would threaten her with rape. What I have a problem with is their flippant attitude to their professionalism in that they were joking about their dominance over someone in submission and they're hypothetical ability to rape them. They did arrest them, they implied that they could charge them, that they could deport them, and that they could rape them. Even joking that you have the power to do these things and that you would consider them, even in jest is unnacceptable.

    And like you said in the first quote, if they said that to the women they should be sacked. In this case, because it was a fairly disgusting betrayal of their professionalism (even in private) they should get a severe bollocking by whoevers in charge of their station. They should get another severe bollocking from someone even higher up the totem pole. And they should be subject to a fairly frank discussion with someone from the Rape Crisis Centre.

    But yes, I think a lot of people are overreacting in this thread. Just as a lot of people aren't taking it seriously.

    Do you not think the joke was about the ridiculousness of the suggestion that this could be a punishment?


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  • #352
    KittyeeTrix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,239 ✭✭✭KittyeeTrix


    gosuckonalemon wrote: »
    As long as the garda acted professionally in dealing with the case and was successful what should it matter what he talks about to his mates in the canteen?
    You can't expect the Garda to become emotionally affected by a rape case he is dealing with. If he did then that would be very unprofessional of him and could impact on the case. Moreso than telling jokes in private.

    This is why I usually don't get involved in these pointless debates on Boards.................:(

    So to explain, I wouldn't expect the guard to be emotionally affected by "my case" so as he could do his job professionally but I wouldn't like to think that the individual who was dealing with "my case" would be the type of individual who could jokingly discuss rape with his buddies........

    That is all really


  • #353
    gosuckonalemon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 730 ✭✭✭gosuckonalemon


    vinchick wrote: »
    Yes it will and has.

    Take a look at any of the literature of non reporting of offences, not just those of a sexual nature.

    Over and over again around research into non report of assaults, thefts etc. it all comes back to a few themes one of which is.....the police will not take me seriously and will not bother.

    The Gardai are heard making little of offences this re-enforces this idea. Look at the literature, go on, I dare you.:p

    Well it's the victim's choice as to whether or not they want to report the rape or not. They would be pretty stupid not to report a rape because they assume they won't be taken seriously. They could at least report it and find out.


  • #354
    smeedyova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭smeedyova


    They threatened to rape a woman who was in their custody. Several times. They thought about, talked about and laughed about raping a woman known to them and in their custody. How safe do you think this woman was in their hands? Would you like to be held in custody by these (in my opinion) uncivilised, uncouth, unintelligent people?


  • #355
    Duggy747
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    smeedyova wrote: »
    They threatened to rape a woman who was in their custody. Several times. They thought about, talked about and laughed about raping a woman known to them and in their custody. How safe do you think this woman was in their hands? Would you like to be held in custody by these (in my opinion) uncivilised, uncouth, unintelligent people?

    ^^^

    This is what I'm talking about that's being spread!!

    Please read the transcript / watch the video. They did not say they were going to rape her or........thought about it. Please. It's this sort of reaction that's really bugging me, now.


  • #356
    _feedback_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,274 ✭✭✭_feedback_


    Hairdresser says:

    A blonde was asked what the capital of California was. “That’s easy,” she said. “It’s C.”

    Blonde customers never return, as the hairdresser cannot be trusted with blondes.

    Sounds absolutely ridiculous to me.


  • #357
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    smeedyova wrote: »
    They threatened to rape a woman who was in their custody. Several times. They thought about, talked about and laughed about raping a woman known to them and in their custody. How safe do you think this woman was in their hands? Would you like to be held in custody by these (in my opinion) uncivilised, uncouth, unintelligent people?

    They didn't threaten her though.


  • #358
    Buceph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    k_mac wrote: »
    Actually the original post which you replied to was in relation to people being arrested on the street for insulting Gardaí in front of a crowd if I remember correctly.


    EDIT: This one

    Again you misrepresent what people said.

    You only took a small portion of what was originally said.

    This was the original post.
    My name is URL wrote: »
    How do the Gardai react to people making jokes towards them? I've seen people being bundled into the back of cars for harmlessly taking the piss of them on nights out.

    I guess it all comes down to whether or not the person on the receiving end sees it as a joke, and in this case they obviously didn't.


    Why are you trying to misrepresent people?

    k_mac wrote: »
    Do you not think the joke was about the ridiculousness of the suggestion that this could be a punishment?

    Well seeing as the baseline of the thread was that if she didn't give her name and address she could be arrested. This is something that the guards have an influence over. And saying it is a display of their ability to exert their power and authority. Then they say that she'd be deported. Again something that would happen as a result from the initial display of power and authority over the women. Then it goes to the rape scenario. It's logical to extend this as another bravado display of the guards power and authority.

    I accept they were joking. I believe it's ludicrous to think they would rape her. I think it's ludicrous to think they would seriously advocate her rape. I think the problem is they can't address the terms of their own authority in a sensible manner. The idea that their authority extends, even to the joking ability to rape someone is disgusting, and something they should be reprimanded for.


  • #359
    gardapa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 101 ✭✭gardapa


    smeedyova wrote: »
    They threatened to rape a woman who was in their custody. Several times. They thought about, talked about and laughed about raping a woman known to them and in their custody. How safe do you think this woman was in their hands? Would you like to be held in custody by these (in my opinion) uncivilised, uncouth, unintelligent people?


    Get a grip!!


  • #360
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Buceph wrote: »
    No. I don't think they would threaten her with rape. What I have a problem with is their flippant attitude to their professionalism in that they were joking about their dominance over someone in submission and they're hypothetical ability to rape them. They did arrest them, they implied that they could charge them, that they could deport them, and that they could rape them. Even joking that you have the power to do these things and that you would consider them, even in jest is unnacceptable.

    Jokingly implied... and it wasn't a direct threat of action if you read the transcripts, more along the lines of 'give me your name or I'll deport/rape you'. Different from saying let's bring them back to the station and rape them.
    Buceph wrote: »
    And like you said in the first quote, if they said that to the women they should be sacked. In this case, because it was a fairly disgusting betrayal of their professionalism (even in private) they should get a severe bollocking by whoevers in charge of their station. They should get another severe bollocking from someone even higher up the totem pole. And they should be subject to a fairly frank discussion with someone from the Rape Crisis Centre..

    All true. The correct course of action in my book. Should also go on their permanent records for future reference in case of transfers/promotions etc.
    smeedyova wrote: »
    They threatened to rape a woman who was in their custody. Several times. They thought about, talked about and laughed about raping a woman known to them and in their custody. How safe do you think this woman was in their hands? Would you like to be held in custody by these (in my opinion) uncivilised, uncouth, unintelligent people?

    Very safe, seeing as how 90 odd per cent of the transcripts deal with her and others, physical safety.


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  • #361
    vinchick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭vinchick


    gosuckonalemon wrote: »
    Well it's the victim's choice as to whether or not they want to report the rape or not. They would be pretty stupid not to report a rape because they assume they won't be taken seriously. They could at least report it and find out.

    You really don't seem to understand the level and trauma involved in being a victim of a sexual offence. PTSD and affects of trauma can last for years.

    The fear for being humiliated, belittled and probed is enough to stop many from reporting, for many it is described as a second violation. Theses are not ordinary assaults.

    With all due respect you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about sexual offences and repeating a lot of myths that are prevalent today.

    But don't take my word for it. Pick up any piece of literature about sex offences and it will say the same thing. As I have said before SAVI is the best in an Irish context. It goes into the levels of shame and fear that victims experience and how this still can be present and strong years later. Then you can get the idea of what goes through the minds of victims of sexual offences and see how the situation is different to how you think it is.


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