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Why is Ruari Quinn so anti-Catholic?

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Einhard wrote: »
    Eh, the lada?

    Seriously, such a very silly statement. Stop making silly statements please. It makes baby Jesus cry when intelligent people make patently ridiculous claims for partisan purposes.

    Atheistic China and USSR oversaw the planned deaths of over a hundred million people. State Atheism was central to their political agenda. No atheistic society contributed any great things to the history of civilization. But what do we get? Frothing about the tiny minority of abusers which are clergy and whipping up the fears of religions being involved in education when the alternative isn't indicated and the potential harm of religion exaggerated.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Einhard wrote: »
    Standards haven't dropped in Gaelscoileanna, or in EducateTogether schools. And the Irish state, contrary to popular opinion, does many things well.

    Gaelscoileanna and educate together are not prevented from having religion in school. The church does not oppose such schools and actually wants to assist them. Whether they decide to have religion or not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    ISAW wrote: »
    Atheistic China and USSR oversaw the planned deaths of over a hundred million people. State Atheism was central to their political agenda. No atheistic society contributed any great things to the history of civilization. But what do we get? Frothing about the tiny minority of abusers which are clergy and whipping up the fears of religions being involved in education when the alternative isn't indicated and the potential harm of religion exaggerated.

    And when the USSR or Red China rape kids in our schools and cover it up, we will limit their power too.

    At a very simple level, the Catholic Church have too many more schools than there are Catholics in Ireland and parents do not have a real choice. No-one is arguing for complete removal of the church from our schools, just balancing them down towords the numbers who want that sort of education.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,272 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    ISAW you're on some kind of hardline, borderline demonic religious rampage so rather than pick the 17,000 holes that would be nessecary to disprove your - frankly odd - reasoning I'm just going to suggest that you awaken from you la-la-land induced sleep and re-enter the real world.

    Without delving into the realm of personal abuse or insults which would likely end in my being infracted let me just say this - you are completely and utterly off the wall deluded (imho).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    ISAW wrote: »
    Other thasn the thread title? The plural was used.

    Now you're just being picky. Although...
    what non Roman catholic religious denomination do you think wants and should get a Catholic School building from the Catholic School? What area has such laege numbers leaving the Catholic Church and asking to be in this new or other denomination?

    ...this technically, also qualifies as a loaded question. Why does any religious organisation have to run schools?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    ISAW wrote: »
    Frothing about the tiny minority of abusers which are clergy and whipping up the fears of religions being involved in education when the alternative isn't indicated and the potential harm of religion exaggerated.

    Blaming the crimes of atheistic regimes on their atheism is willful ignorance. The brutalities of Stalin and Mao weren't carried out in the name of atheism; the brutalities of the Inquisition etc were enacted in the name of Christianity. Therein lies the difference. To ignore that difference is self-delusion, and unworthy.
    ISAW wrote: »
    Gaelscoileanna and educate together are not prevented from having religion in school. The church does not oppose such schools and actually wants to assist them. Whether they decide to have religion or not.

    Never claimed the contrary. I was responding to the suggestion that education will suffer if removed from religious patronage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    At a very simple level, the Catholic Church have too many more schools than there are Catholics in Ireland and parents do not have a real choice. No-one is arguing for complete removal of the church from our schools, just balancing them down towords the numbers who want that sort of education.

    This is exactly the point. Nobody is suggesting that all religious schools will be closed down forthwith. Indeed, the point of the exercise is to enage with schools and the communities they serve, and to make decisions on patronage based on those consultations. Where there is a clear demand for continuing religious patronage, that will continue. Where a demand for an alternative is evident, an alternative will be provided. I fail to see how anyone could have a problem with such a reasonable, consulatative process. But then, some people just seem to like to argue for the sake of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    And when the USSR or Red China rape kids in our schools and cover it up, we will limit their power too.

    At a very simple level, the Catholic Church have too many more schools than there are Catholics in Ireland and parents do not have a real choice. No-one is arguing for complete removal of the church from our schools, just balancing them down towords the numbers who want that sort of education.

    Much more than the church involved in abusing children over the last century and beyond. In fact if you look at the figures children were more physically and sexually abused by family members and other lay people than the clergy, and families covered it up. Wheres the uproar about that, the real scandal?

    What I'm interested in is a school where say 40% of parents want the church to pull out and 60% want it to remain. What happens then when there is a sizeable minority in opposition?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166 ✭✭bitter


    Do you actually understand what secularism is?

    please don't encourage him :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    What I'm interested in is a school where say 40% of parents want the church to pull out and 60% want it to remain. What happens then when there is a sizeable minority in opposition?

    That only causes a problem when you look at schools in isolation. generally speaking, an area will have several schools. Where there are substantial minorities in a number of religious schools demanding secular patronage, they can be accomodated by granting such patronage to one of the schools. Thus, in stead of the situation at present, where one might have 5 religious schools in a town, in future there may be four denominational and one secular. Surely a fairer and more representative situation?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166 ✭✭bitter


    ISAW wrote: »
    Atheistic China and USSR oversaw the planned deaths of over a hundred million people. State Atheism was central to their political agenda. No atheistic society contributed any great things to the history of civilization. But what do we get? Frothing about the tiny minority of abusers which are clergy and whipping up the fears of religions being involved in education when the alternative isn't indicated and the potential harm of religion exaggerated.


    Jesus H Christ.. and I'm an athiest btw..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Einhard wrote: »
    That only causes a problem when you look at schools in isolation. generally speaking, an area will have several schools. Where there are substantial minorities in a number of religious schools demanding secular patronage, they can be accomodated by granting such patronage to one of the schools. Thus, in stead of the situation at present, where one might have 5 religious schools in a town, in future there may be four denominational and one secular. Surely a fairer and more representative situation?

    In rural areas that isn't a choice as schools actually exist in isolation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    Schools should either teach every religion or no religion when in the hands of the state. If you want to send your child to a religious school, then send them to a private one. The state should not prefer one religion over another ever and secular schools would be a great thing.

    Separation of Church and state is important! All of us are not catholics and we have a right to be able to educate our kids in a fair and equal setting. If you want your children to be religious do it at home.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Hank_Jones


    This thread got derailed quite quickly...

    I don't see what the issue is with this, there are still going to be Catholic schools that parents will be able to send their children to if they wish.

    Without doing this we are, essentially, forcing parents into putting their children into schools they do not themselves support.

    We should be happy that as a country we are moving forward, in some respects at least.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,272 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    I think the overbearing point that is being made here is that the Catholic Church - nor any church - should have a monopoly on the education of our children.

    In my own opinion, school should be about education. Religious education may be a part of that, that's up to the parent of each individual child and if they want to conciously send their child to a denominational school then that's fine once the religious values are not rammed down the throats of the kids with detrement to education that is actually based on fact rather than belief.

    The fact that the CC has been allowed to maintain such a huge patronage over schools here and effectively bar parents from having any choice in whether or not their kids go through the whole catholic rigmarole is wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    [QUOTE=Dr. Baltar;71511652]Schools should either teach every religion or no religion when in the hands of the state. If you want to send your child to a religious school, then send them to a private one. The state should not prefer one religion over another ever and secular schools would be a great thing.

    Separation of Church and state is important! All of us are not catholics and we have a right to be able to educate our kids in a fair and equal setting. If you want your children to be religious do it at home.[/QUOTE]


    A fully fledged two tier education system, where the private "old schools" run by the Church educate the leaders of tomorrow while the ordinary plebs get a low quality education in the school run by the VEC....

    Splitting a system, which isn't broken, will create more problems than it solves. It will lead to a new brand of eliteism. Couple this with the fact that university is going to become less affordable and ironically a Labour minister may be responsible for keeping the working classes out of reaching their full potential?


    If a secular education is so desireable then why is there such a long waiting list for children to get into faith based schools in the UK?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    In rural areas that isn't a choice as schools actually exist in isolation.

    Well not entirely. Rural schools should exist in isolation, but one often finds several very small schools in relative proximity to one another. There is a process of amalgamation underway at the moment, so many of these will (hopefully) be integrated into larger schools in the near future. At that point, a decision can be arrived at, based on the wants and needs of the local community. A perfectly equitable solution may not always be arrived at, but the situation at the moment is entirely untenable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    A fully fledged two tier education system, where the private "old schools" run by the Church educate the leaders of tomorrow while the ordinary plebs get a low quality education in the school run by the VEC....

    That's not what's being proposed at all...
    Splitting a system, which isn't broken, will create more problems than it solves. It will lead to a new brand of eliteism.

    The system is untenable. Why should the children of atheist parents have to leave the classroom during Communion instruction? Why should atheists and agnostics and secularists not have the option to send their kids to non-demoninational schools? They pay the same taxes as religious parents. Why should they be actively discriminated against?
    If a secular education is so desireable then why is there such a long waiting list for children to get into faith based schools in the UK?

    Nobody's stating that religious education is necessarily a negative thing, or that secular education is automatically superior. People just want a choice. So, instead of 95% of schools being run by Christian bodies, it'll be 50-60%. How is choice a bad thing?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    A fully fledged two tier education system, where the private "old schools" run by the Church educate the leaders of tomorrow while the ordinary plebs get a low quality education in the school run by the VEC....

    Splitting a system, which isn't broken, will create more problems than it solves. It will lead to a new brand of eliteism. Couple this with the fact that university is going to become less affordable and ironically a Labour minister may be responsible for keeping the working classes out of reaching their full potential?


    If a secular education is so desireable then why is there such a long waiting list for children to get into faith based schools in the UK?


    VEC schools can be run very well. The way you speak you would swear that as soon as religion and a weekly visit from the priest stopped in schools that entire education system would collapse.

    Rather than having kids do a religion class once or twice a week, that time could be spent learning a meaningful subject.
    Rather than having kids learn songs and chants for communion and confirmation they can learn a meaningful subject.

    Want to make confirmation? Bring your child down to the church yourself, stop wasting other kids time.

    As for this whole anti-working class sentiment that you're talking about.
    Private schools already exist. Some are religious. Some are non-religious.
    If you can afford it, go for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Einhard wrote: »
    Well not entirely. Rural schools should exist in isolation, but one often finds several very small schools in relative proximity to one another. There is a process of amalgamation underway at the moment, so many of these will (hopefully) be integrated into larger schools in the near future. At that point, a decision can be arrived at, based on the wants and needs of the local community. A perfectly equitable solution may not always be arrived at, but the situation at the moment is entirely untenable.


    So these amalgamated rural schools will then face the same choice where a possible sizable minority may want change but the majority wants to keep the status quo. Its these kind of things that will split communities particularly rural ones, where the school is one of the key institutions of a locality.

    In very few cases will there be a desire for all out change where greater than 85% of parents desire it, apart from our new ghettos.

    The truth is change will be a highly divisive local issue.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    So these amalgamated rural schools will then face the same choice where a possible sizable minority may want change but the majority wants to keep the status quo. Its these kind of things that will split communities particularly rural ones, where the school is one of the key institutions of a locality.

    In very few cases will there be a desire for all out change where greater than 85% of parents desire it, apart from our new ghettos.

    The truth is change will be a highly divisive local issue.

    Once again I fail to see why religion needs to be taught in these schools. Religion, just like political or sports beliefs is a private thing, and children should be taught from their parents about which religion/political party and football team to follow rather than have the state actively pushing Catholic down their throats.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,733 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    Once again I fail to see why religion needs to be taught in these schools. Religion, just like political or sports beliefs is a private thing, and children should be taught from their parents about which religion/political party and football team to follow rather than have the state actively pushing Catholic down their throats.


    Its more than just religious instruction its also the ethos.

    You didn't address the issues of divisiveness that these changes will cause. This could potentially split communities where I feel old wealth conservatism will stay on one side and the working poor on the other. It has happened in the UK, it will happen here too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    So these amalgamated rural schools will then face the same choice where a possible sizable minority may want change but the majority wants to keep the status quo. Its these kind of things that will split communities particularly rural ones, where the school is one of the key institutions of a locality.

    Firstly, i don't think this is as divisive issue as you are making out. I know many parents who would like a secular education for their kids, but not to the extent that they'd fall out with people over it.

    Also, you speak of rural communities as if they were planetary systems, seperated by massive distances rather than a few miles. "Rural" schools very often cater to a rural population from an urban centre, where there are several other schools. I know this to be the case in several towns in my county. There would not be a problem in designating one such school as non-denominational.

    Furthermore, at the moment there is NO choice in the system. You seem to be arguing that, in the absence of a perfect system where everyone is offered a choice, no attempt be made to offer SOME choice. It's all or nothing etc. I don't think this is a very logical position to take.
    In very few cases will there be a desire for all out change where greater than 85% of parents desire it, apart from our new ghettos.

    You can't possibly know this. how about we let the consultative body do its work for a bit before we throw out figures that can't be substantiated?
    The truth is change will be a highly divisive local issue.

    No, I think that is a strawman really. In a tiny minority of rural communities it might cause problems, but that's no reason to deny choice to the large proportion of people who want, and demand it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    You didn't address the issues of divisiveness that these changes will cause. This could potentially split communities where I feel old wealth conservatism will stay on one side and the working poor on the other. It has happened in the UK, it will happen here too.

    Jesus Christ, all we're talking about is transferring the odd CBS to the patronage of EducateTogether or some other secular body. From your comments, you'd swear we were liquidating private assets!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    So these amalgamated rural schools will then face the same choice where a possible sizable minority may want change but the majority wants to keep the status quo. Its these kind of things that will split communities particularly rural ones, where the school is one of the key institutions of a locality.

    In very few cases will there be a desire for all out change where greater than 85% of parents desire it, apart from our new ghettos.

    The truth is change will be a highly divisive local issue.

    I don't understand the impulse in Ireland to avoid "divisive" issues until things boil over into disaster. The Irish educational system has serious problems and is in need of an overhaul. There is a critical need to focus on math and science, reading comprehension, and writing skills. Religious education is something that can happen outside of school hours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Getting back to the original point, I wouldn't leave a child alone with anyone who identifies themselves as catholic clergy.

    The church have proven to be untrustworthy

    Well done deputy Quinn , I salute you.

    let's see church and state separated forever


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    Mr Quinn as education Minister is the one positive thing I can see in this Government and the country in general. I hope he has the courage to follow through in the face of what will no doubt be fierce and irrational opposition as demonstrated already in this thread.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 201 ✭✭Lefticus Loonaticus


    jahalpin wrote: »
    There are several primary and secondary schools in the country under the partonage of the Church of Ireland, however, he doesn't seem to be going after these in any way, this doesn't seem fair

    Well, the church of ireland dont engage in this kind of activity do they?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mmR9Sa8C-8&feature=related


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 578 ✭✭✭Predator_


    jahalpin wrote: »
    Ever since he was apponted Minister for Education, Ruairi Quinn has been doing everything possible to undermine the Catholic church in Ireland

    The vast majority of the population of this country are Catholic and most of these would want their children to have First Communion and Confirmation in school.

    There are several primary and secondary schools in the country under the partonage of the Church of Ireland, however, he doesn't seem to be going after these in any way, this doesn't seem fair

    Why is Deputy Quinn so anti-Catholic? and what are Fine Gael's views on this?

    Your not going to find many supporters here on anti Irish anti Catholic boards.ie


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 303 ✭✭hatz7


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    How do you know that the education the Irish state provides would be in any way inferior to what the church provides?
    I see your point, but there is no reason to believe that standards will drop if the state steps in. Most of the teachers will stay the same, the syllabus will mostly stay the same.
    Perhaps it would be better if you stated what, specifically, the church does to improve the standard of education, that you feel the state would not be able to do?

    Specifically Catholic schools do education well, that's what I mean, In lots of different countries many of the best schools are catholic run schools.

    Now secularism is fine, however funnily enough that's not the issue, what is, is what can the 'Irish state' provide in terms of secular education?

    I think my view may be influenced by 'better the devil you know', I not think that the Irish state can provide a better service than the CC.

    This is a service we are discussing and the delivery of a service. Who trusts the Irish State????


This discussion has been closed.
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