The Leaving Cert Is A Form Of Slavery

Fremen · 01-04-2011 02:05PM

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The problem is that it restricts people from doing what they want to do in life. It's a case of human freedom - if people want to go to the best school, pay for it.

You still have to restrict someone - not everyone can do the same thing. All you're saying is that universities should restrict poor people from doing what they want to do instead of restricting dumb people.

That's pretty distasteful tbh.

wild_cat · 01-04-2011 02:07PM

Meh, not really if you actually open a book you'll be grand. I didn't give two ****s about it as I was meant to be heading to art college, did basically nothing and came away with 300 points. I can only imagine what points I would have received if I studied the way my friends did.

Got into Art College, hated it to the core and now I spend my day learning programming languages. Had I achieved higher points I probably would have have done Arts or something of the like, but my points limited my choices and now I'm doing a degree in something that will actually get me a job in this country. Just play the system and your grand.

Overheal · 01-04-2011 02:12PM

Wow, they really have done a terrible job educating you if you equate the Leaving Cert to Slavery.

digme · 01-04-2011 02:13PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

And there are many different avenues for further education after school.

What do you think college is? In a good college it's what you can remember from reading some books combined with developing independant thought around the subject matter....in a bad college it's what you can remember from reading some books.

Pretty much exactly the same as Secondary Schools.

Not everyone is going to make it to college,i know some people do apprenticeships,but shouldn't that also be an option from first year on in secondary school?The education system is totally wrong.

There are new types of schools open in America which deals with what I'm talking about.They actually nurture the individual and figure out what they excel at very early on.

Listen to this girl.She can convey it better than myself.

School is not all that it can be,it stunts your growth.

“We could encourage the best qualities of youthfulness – curiosity, adventure, resilience, the capacity for surprising insight simply by being more flexible about time, texts, and tests, by introducing kids into truly competent adults, and by giving each student what autonomy he or she needs in order to take a risk every now and then. But we don't do that.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M4tdMsg3ts

Knasher · 01-04-2011 02:21PM

One simple change I'd absolutely love to see is if your points were weighted by the course you were applying for. So for example if you applying for medicine then if you took biology it would count for more than lets say french even if you got the same mark in both. Realistically it would mean that the only way to get medicine is to take and do well in biology, but I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

I'd also like to do away with the extra marks for doing subjects in Irish. I can't think of a reason why they should have one subject where they will get very high marks (after all if they are good enough to do everything else in Irish, will they really get less than an A in Irish itself?) and then get a leg up in every other subject as well. Kinda wish I was lucky enough to be born in the gaeltacht.

mconigol · 01-04-2011 02:25PM

I did the leaving cert a few years ago. Funnily enough I'm doing ok

Stop moaning OP

Corruptedmorals · 01-04-2011 02:25PM

Nothing stopping someone from dropping out and taking an apprenticeship programme- in fact, this was all the rage in my school (2004 Junior Cert). The Transition year and LCA programmes are designed to develop what people want to do, the LCA in particular is designed to encourage non-traditional academic routes. Both have to do work experience. My school also did a Safe Pass course, several actually. Schools are NOT forcing you to do the Leaving Cert.

There's a big gap between the Leaving Cert and university, they need to encourage understanding more than memorising as many people flounder in first year. Other than that, the Leaving cert is a pretty good system. The A-levels are probably better in enouraging deeper understanding, but I think they're far too narrow- 3 subjects??maybe 4?? and then they have that predicted grades and personal statements wankerism. The LC is far from slavery- if you can't get the points, that's not the sytem's fault.

briano · 01-04-2011 02:27PM

emeraldstar wrote: »

...(School is also full time anyway.)

ahahahahaahahahaha

Sorry, I only got that far, brilliant. You have made my day.

sensibleken · 01-04-2011 02:29PM

If you think the leaving cert is slavery then i dont fancy your chances at passing history kid.

smokedeels · 01-04-2011 02:33PM

I've a completely different attitude towards education than I did while I was in secondary school, I'm not sure how I would approach the LC now but comparing education to slavery is awful.

Napper Hawkins · 01-04-2011 02:33PM

CreepingDeath wrote: »

It's only lacking if you're thick as two planks.

The fact that there are people who believe that makes it easier to understand why this country is ****ed.

Rote learning is not an accurate measure of intelligence, it simply serves as a way to separate those who are capable of studying things they don't care about (the obedient) from those who are not.

Like I.Q. tests, the only thing a high score tells you is that the person is good at I.Q. tests.

There are plenty of rich, successful folk who made a complete arse of school just like there are plenty of incarcerated or homeless people who did ok or even excelled.

That said, I do think the LC is a good thing, but it needs to improve drastically. Not thinking exactly like the majority is far too often mistaken for a lack of intelligence and it's scary to think how many people have fallen through the cracks because of a flawed system.

Spunge · 01-04-2011 02:40PM

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Wouldn't you agree?

Think about it: We're put through a desperate school system that is found lacking. Then they discriminate against us by stopping us from earning a living because of a bogus points system. Surely, we can come up with a more humane system than this.

For example, we should do away with the Leaving Cert and let the individual colleges set their own standards. If you don't get the points you quite need to do, say medicine for example, you can pay to do it regardless of points.
This is a far better system. Most of us don't even realise what we're interested in doing, nor take it seriously enough until our twenties.

Leaving Cert is a form of slavery....yay or nay?

http://levistey0.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/sloth_shades.gif

Spudmonkey · 01-04-2011 02:40PM

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Everybody in this thread is completely missing the point.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the Leaving being difficult or 'it's harder when you start working in real life'. The problem is that it restricts people from doing what they want to do in life. It's a case of human freedom - if people want to go to the best school, pay for it. Live your dream.

Bollix. The Leaving Cert partitions students so that the bright ones can do the technical things and to keep the not so bright from doing them. Frankly I don't want some thick youngfella/youngwan with a big wad of their parents cash being my doctor.

Even at that the Leaving Cert is a failed entity. It has been progressively easier over the past 20 years to the point where anyone can do well.

briano · 01-04-2011 02:41PM

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The problem is that it restricts people from doing what they want to do in life.

I take it back. I got this far.

Every single time working or graduates or employment comes up, without fail a mention will be made of how people these days have a "sense of entitlement", although I have yet to see it in the wild. That was, yet to see it , up until I read this post.

It's not stopping people from doing what they want to do; it's making people prove how much they want it. Want to do medicine? Prove it by getting 600 points. Want to be an engineer? Prove it by getting As in Higher Maths. Want to do anything in life, even after you get out of the "full time slavery hell" that is second level education? You are going to have to work for it and work hard.

Want people to imagine that all of your posts are one step away from saying "but that's not fair" in a really whiney voice? Well, actually, you have that one pretty well covered.

Mike 1972 · 01-04-2011 02:42PM

Knasher wrote: »

One simple change I'd absolutely love to see is if your points were weighted by the course you were applying for. So for example if you applying for medicine then if you took biology it would count for more than lets say french even if you got the same mark in both. Realistically it would mean that the only way to get medicine is to take and do well in biology, but I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

I agree 100% and I did mention it to the head of LIT onetime who also agreed it was an excellent idea in theory however for equality reasons they are unable to do it.

He gave an example of a hypothetical student from an all girls school wanting to do an engineering course not having physics as an option for the leaving cert at their school.

When I pointed out that it was a half arsed way of addressing the problem and what the state really needed to do was withdraw funding from schools which segregated on the basis of race, religion OR gender he told me I was preaching to the converted.

That was twenty years ago..........

01-04-2011 02:43PM

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

students need to wait til they are working full time and look back at how easy school was before thinking the leaving is difficult

I see students walking to school everyday on my way to work and it reminds me how glad I am that I dont have to go again.

Work >>>>>> school.

01-04-2011 02:46PM

I'm always amazed at the amount of people claiming you have to do things the same way as everyone else/rote learning in the LC and then it transpires they themselves learned off essays for the LC English/Irish. Learned off essays, I'm still boggling at the idea.
There are plenty of opportunities to express yourself in the LC. You don't have to say the same thing as everyone else.

Knasher · 01-04-2011 02:47PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I agree 100% and I did mention it to the head of LIT onetime who also agreed it was an excellent idea in theory however for equality reasons they are unable to do it.

He gave an example of a hypothetical student from an all girls school wanting to do an engineering course not having physics as an option for the leaving cert at their school.

When I pointed out that it was a half arsed way of addressing the problem and what the state really needed to do was withdraw funding from schools which segregated on the basis of race, religion OR gender he told me I was preaching to the converted.

That was twenty years ago..........

Damn, I concede to your depressing point. It might be the sort of thing that would fix itself though, after all I doubt a school would like to get a reputation that if you attend there certain courses would be denied to you.

CD. · 01-04-2011 02:48PM

not even close to slavery.

if you don't do you homework you're not whipped, if you mitch, you foot isn't removed to stop you running away again.

there's nothing forcing you to stay after the junior cert really.

Mike 1972 · 01-04-2011 03:15PM

Knasher wrote: »

I doubt a school would like to get a reputation that if you attend there certain courses would be denied to you.

Things have probably improved a bit since I left school but I would still imagine that Schools which offer the full range of leaving cert subjects are quite rare.

I wanted to do geography for the LC but I was told it wasnt going to be on offer as there wasnt enough demand and if I had a problem with it I could always go to another school.

As alwas the fact that this last suggestion was entirely impracticable was seemingly completly besides the point.

Corruptedmorals · 01-04-2011 03:44PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Things have probably improved a bit since I left school but I would still imagine that Schools which offer the full range of leaving cert subjects are quite rare.

I wanted to do geography for the LC but I was told it wasnt going to be on offer as there wasnt enough demand and if I had a problem with it I could always go to another school.

As alwas the fact that this last suggestion was entirely impracticable was seemingly completly besides the point.

Wow really, geography? I bet it does now. Every school should offer two of french/german/spanish, history, geography, biology, physics, chemistry, art, construction studies, business, economics, accounting, music...and depending on the size and if it's a 'high points achievers' school...applied maths, and one or two lesser done ones that people would be interested in, like ag science, russian, japanese etc.

Chaotic_Forces · 01-04-2011 03:58PM

Leaving Cert. is a load of fu*king sh**e. Wanna learn French in college? Okay, do well in your french exam, far enough. Oh... you need to be able to pass maths (which will more than likely never be useful in your life) and get a total of 300 plus points.

Oh, if you fail you're an idiot and you don't deserve to go to college.

It's a joke and it is slave labour. Average work day is 9 to 5.
Average school day is say... 9 - 3:30.
So the average working day is 8 hours. The average school day is around 6.5 hours or so.

Let's say we get up at 7am for both work and school and it takes us 30 minutes to get home.
This extends to waking up at 7am and being home at 5:30 from work.
For school it's get up at 7am and home about 4pm.

So a nine hour school day vs a 10.5 hours work day. Sounds better for school goers, right?

Except you aren't given homework and told to study (well you essentially have to study since the education system is horrible).
So let's say we'll give up... 2 hours for homework and 1.5 hours of studying per night. That's an extra 3.5 hours. And suddenly the school day extends to 12.5. Keep in my mind that most days, you will end up doing homework/studying for 5 hours (unless you don't make an effort).

Oh and on top of all that, we were encouraged to have an active social life and get a part-time job to save up money for college.

So yeah, it is slavery and anyone who doesn't understand it obviously can't remember what school is like.

Oh and don't even get me started on the whole "THOU MUST SIT IN SILENCE FOR A TOTAL OF 320 MINUTES EVERY DAY". School in general was and still is a complete load of sh**e in this country.

Mike 1972 · 01-04-2011 04:10PM

^^ You might actually have one or two valid points in there somewhere but if you want people to take it seriously try and present it as less of a rant

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Average work day is 9 to 5.

It is

Chairman Meow · 01-04-2011 04:13PM

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Wouldn't you agree?

Think about it: We're put through a desperate school system that is found lacking. Then they discriminate against us by stopping us from earning a living because of a bogus points system. Surely, we can come up with a more humane system than this.

WE?

Sorry son, i did mine in 1997, enjoy your studying and **** hahahaha

UsernameInUse · 01-04-2011 04:23PM

People who complain saying the poor can't afford it - well have you ever looked at other areas of the world?

Thailand and Brazil have created educational franchises. Entrepreneurs in the private sector have always provided a greater education than the public sector in which there is zero accountability. In Thailand, communities have set up their own schools - these schools cost about €100 annually - who can't afford that? And every last one of them don't depend on taxpayers money.

It's the way forward. What makes people think they are entitled to an education at someone else's expense? As things stand, a low-income worker is paying for a wealthy child to go to college free even though their children have probably not received the points to go further.

The system under which we live is not equal. That is a fact. If you have the money to get educated in any field your heart desires - go for it.

languagenerd · 01-04-2011 04:29PM

Ooh Leaving-Cert bashing. Original(!)

People forget that the whole rote-learning etc. only really came into force when the points system started. The points system is the CAO, it's not the Leaving Cert itself (which is why you get A, B, C etc on your cert, not your points) - the LC is much older then the points system, so the way it's done now is not the way it's supposed to be.

Rote-learning aside, while we're all very quick to bash the Leaving Cert, our education system actually isn't that bad. The amount of subject choices, as well as the fact that we take on average 7 subjects (compared to 3 in England), means that (should we do it right), we emerge from school as well-rounded individuals.

You get back what you put into it!

Oh and letting people pay their way in? Great idea (!). Why should someone with rich parents who did f*ck-all for 6 years get into a high-demand course while someone who worked really hard and is genuinely suited to the course doesn't?

I accept that the LC & CAO have their problems, but they are not as bad as we like to pretend!

ixoy · 01-04-2011 04:32PM

UsernameInUse wrote: »

In Thailand, communities have set up their own schools - these schools cost about €100 annually - who can't afford that?

You do realise that it would be a little bit more than €100 in Ireland right? Look at some private school fees - they're not that cheap.

As things stand, a low-income worker is paying for a wealthy child to go to college free even though their children have probably not received the points to go further.

Why would the child of a low-income worker probably not have received the points to go further?

If you have the money to get educated in any field your heart desires - go for it.

And if you don't have the money - tough? Or, if you do, then that priviledge entitles your children to a competitive advantage in getting to college?

Captain_Generic · 01-04-2011 04:34PM

languagenerd wrote: »

I accept that the LC & CAO have their problems, but they are not as bad as we like to pretend!

A friend of mine missed out on Medicine due to a C in Geography. Thats fucked up, he would have made a great doctor. He instead did.......... *shudder*......Marketing

Chaotic_Forces · 01-04-2011 04:38PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

^^ You might actually have one or two valid points in there somewhere but if you want people to take it seriously try and present it as less of a rant

It is

The nine to five thing was more of a general idea rather than an actual average.

I don't think I was ranting, apart from the last comment about how military-esque it is.

Collie D · 01-04-2011 04:51PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Things have probably improved a bit since I left school but I would still imagine that Schools which offer the full range of leaving cert subjects are quite rare.

I wanted to do geography for the LC but I was told it wasnt going to be on offer as there wasnt enough demand and if I had a problem with it I could always go to another school.

As alwas the fact that this last suggestion was entirely impracticable was seemingly completly besides the point.

I had the exact opposite. Geography was compulsory for LC in our school as nobody had ever failed it apparently.

The Leaving Cert Is A Form Of Slavery

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