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Moment of truth for leftists (except scumlord because he likes The Zohan)

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Comments

  • #362
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,604 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Nodin wrote: »
    While that may be true, its has to be viewed in the light of the consequences they face for their behaviour. These are, obviously, non existent. Thus without risk of penalty, theres no incentive on them to act differently. Were this to change, I think they'd suddenly become more pragmatic.

    Perhaps the less zealots ones will. Unfortunately unless the US suspends its military budget to Israel, or if Obama finally gives us "change we can believe in", by actually allowing a UN resolution condemning Israel to be passed, we're not going to find out.


  • #363
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    nacho libre wrote: »
    Perhaps the less zealots ones will. Unfortunately unless the US suspends its military budget to Israel, or if Obama finally gives us "change we can believe in", by actually allowing a UN resolution condemning Israel to be passed, we're not going to find out.

    Indeed. While Obama might do a bit more, I think it requires a shift in Congress to make that kind of change, which I can't see happening any time soon.


  • #364
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,095 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Head figures in the US military have repeatedly told Obama that the US's unconditional backing of Israel is contributing to dead Ameican soldiers in the ME.

    Sooner or later this will filter through to Congress and become an issue with the American public.


  • #365
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Head figures in the US military have repeatedly told Obama that the US's unconditional backing of Israel is contributing to dead Ameican soldiers in the ME.

    Sooner or later this will filter through to Congress and become an issue with the American public.

    My money would be on later. And time is not on the Palestinians side.


  • #366
    Tahuti
    Closed Accounts Posts: 235 ✭✭Tahuti


    Nodin wrote: »
    My money would be on later. And time is not on the Palestinians side.

    Isn't part of the problem those bible-thumping religious fanatics (American) who believe in creationism etc., also believing that Israel is actually the Promised Land, and that it's a calculated political move in supporting Israel?

    Or is that too simplistic?


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  • #367
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Look again at the UN partition plan
    OK and I'd love to hear your reasoning about denying the land theft. 1947 UN map... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.svg
    Now look at what actually happened... http://www.arendt-art.de/deutsch/palestina/BILDER/index.14.JPG And that's just to 2000. Every other week some rabid Jewish loony who believes Moses says its OK is taking more land with the full support of the IDF and you wonder why in response some rabid Islamic loony straps a bomb to a teenager and blows up a bus?

    No matter what your argument or position is, the simple fact is that Israel has had a concerted policy and effort to steal land by military force from the indigenous population of the area and squeezing said population into smaller and smaller areas(ghettoes ring any bells?), while claiming historical(yea right) and moral rights, with a nice side order of culturalism at best racism at worst. They have done so against all norms of international law and censure since 1947. Do the Israeli people, some of the most intelligent population of people on earth not understand irony?

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #368
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tahuti wrote: »
    Isn't part of the problem those bible-thumping religious fanatics (American) who believe in creationism etc., also believing that Israel is actually the Promised Land, and that it's a calculated political move in supporting Israel?

    Or is that too simplistic?

    O no, thats certainly a factor. The irony is that a good few of them are actually anti-semetic.


  • #369
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Nodin wrote: »
    My money would be on later. And time is not on the Palestinians side.


    I'd wager a bet that its more on the Palestinian side that the Israeli's, why?.

    Because like the British, and Americans etc - they (Israel) don't understand whats inside the heart of a risen people.

    Palestinians are like the Irish, if it takes a thousand years so be it - their day will come.

    Israel only has to lose one war on its soil and its the end of days for it.


  • #370
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brooklynn Unkempt Postage wrote: »
    I'd wager a bet that its more on the Palestinian side that the Israeli's, why?.

    Because like the British, and Americans etc - they (Israel) don't understand whats inside the heart of a risen people.

    Palestinians are like the Irish, if it takes a thousand years so be it - their day will come.

    Israel only has to lose one war on its soil and its the end of days for it.

    There was a time when I beleived that, but as the settlements have expanded and the Palestinian efforts to fight back grew weaker, my mind changed. The gap between sides is too great. Outside of Israel shooting itself in both feet, a leg and trying to run with its bags around its ankles, I can't see the Palestinians getting anything from their own efforts.

    I would, of course, like to be proven very wrong.


  • #371
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Brooklynn Unkempt Postage wrote: »
    I'd wager a bet that its more on the Palestinian side that the Israeli's, why?.

    Because like the British, and Americans etc - they (Israel) don't understand whats inside the heart of a risen people.

    Palestinians are like the Irish, if it takes a thousand years so be it - their day will come.

    Israel only has to lose one war on its soil and its the end of days for it.

    There's another thing Israel have to worry about, and that's the global power shift from west to east. Can they rely on US unconditional support for ever?


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  • #372
    Yo soy el burro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Yo soy el burro


    Did anyone see this story: "Israel to deploy 'Iron Dome' anti-rocket system"

    http://www.france24.com/en/20110325-israel-deploy-iron-dome-anti-rocket-syste

    Just wait till its renamed "the pre-emptive anti-rocket system". Meaning its a new way of blowing the crap out of gaza

    And for any one who thought the yanks weren't bankrolling the israeli's!!!
    "In May, US President Barack Obama asked Congress to give Israel 205 million dollars to develop the system, on top of the annual three billion dollars Israel receives from Washington."


  • #373
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    karma_ wrote: »
    There's another thing Israel have to worry about, and that's the global power shift from west to east. Can they rely on US unconditional support for ever?

    No, but it won't take forever to consolidate the hold on Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

    As regards the East, the Chinese Government are even more indifferent to who bumps off who than the American, who at least manifest the odd bit of conscience and have voters and public opinion to worry about.


  • #374
    Yo soy el burro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Yo soy el burro


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, but it won't take forever to consolidate the hold on Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

    As regards the East, the Chinese Government are even more indifferent to who bumps off who than the American, who at least manifest the odd bit of conscience and have voters and public opinion to worry about.

    With 3 billion a year to buy fighter jets with (the isreali's currently have an order for 20 f-35's due for delivery in a few years time) I dont think they give two sh*ts about the chinese! Any the yanks will always back the isreali's because of their lobby groups (some of the facts on these are sicking) so has a UN veto (if you hold the un in any regard.)


  • #375
    Katkatim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 30 ✭Katkatim


    Yo soy el burro wrote: »
    Did anyone see this story: "Israel to deploy 'Iron Dome' anti-rocket system"

    http://www.france24.com/en/20110325-israel-deploy-iron-dome-anti-rocket-syste

    Just wait till its renamed "the pre-emptive anti-rocket system". Meaning its a new way of blowing the crap out of gaza

    And for any one who thought the yanks weren't bankrolling the israeli's!!!

    The new anti missile system is designed to take out missiles in the air, not attack targets on land. How you think it would be used to attack Gaza is intersting to hear.


  • #376
    Katkatim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 30 ✭Katkatim


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Every other week some rabid Jewish loony who believes Moses says its OK is taking more land with the full support of the IDF and you wonder why in response some rabid Islamic loony straps a bomb to a teenager and blows up a bus?

    What a sad statement and what a twisted logic. How anyone can find justification for strapping a bomb on someone's child and sending them to die is beyond my understanding.


  • #377
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Katkatim wrote: »
    What a sad statement and what a twisted logic. How anyone can find justification for strapping a bomb on someone's child and sending them to die is beyond my understanding.

    He's not justifying it. He's explaining the motivation for such attacks.


  • #378
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Nodin and the fixed anti Israeli commenters: I think I misunderstood some of you from the start. You are not intrested in seeing the conflict from both sides. You are here to defend the Palestinian side no matter what. An answer justifying them will always come. Israeli bad actions will be underlined, Palestinian bad action will be sweeped under the carpet or not mentioned at all.
    Despite of the intelliget and a polite conversation, it seems that you aren't making any effort to balance yourselves. It really looks redicules to me, that your world is so onesided. Even me, though being side in the conflict, try to see the situation from both places and I openly write about it, but you should be a neutral side by default.
    Everything you say is pro palestinian and the only thing that you condemn is killing people (at least some of you).
    I think that the best suited way to talk is to say: I support side A or side B and I will prove why they are right. You are neutral observers in disguise.

    The anti rocket system is for defence, you anti Israeli skeptic, Yo soy el burro.

    Wibbs, try to read about the lands that Jews bought in Israel before 48.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
    Wibbs, come on, now the international (the partition plan) law isn't meaningful to you when it comes against your agenda?
    what about the 48 independance war which the arabs had started a day after Israel got independence? what about the fact they they tried to kick jews out of their legal land, and lost? They fled in millions from the country. They were very cruel. Israelis at that time haven't been much nicer to them during the war. It was a war for survival.
    After we won, of course we took the Places the were abonded. Maybe you expect Israelis to say: He guys, you killed about 1/6 of the Jewish population, started the war and broke the law. Wanted to kick us from our legal land but hey!! no offence. Come back :)


  • #379
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Nodin and the fixed anti Israeli commenters: I think I misunderstood some of you from the start. You are not intrested in seeing the conflict from both sides. You are here to defend the Palestinian side no matter what. An answer justifying them will always come. Israeli bad actions will be underlined, Palestinian bad action will be sweeped under the carpet or not mentioned at all.
    Despite of the intelliget and a polite conversation, it seems that you aren't making any effort to balance yourselves. It really looks redicules to me, that your world is so onesided. Even me, though being side in the conflict, try to see the situation from both places and I openly write about it, but you should be a neutral side by default.
    Everything you say is pro palestinian and the only thing that you condemn is killing people (at least some of you).
    I think that the best suited way to talk is to say: I support side A or side B and I will prove why they are right. You are neutral observers in disguise.

    .................

    Thats all very well and good.

    Now, would you care to pick up where we left off?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71337171&postcount=357


  • #380
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    I just read that. It's partly familiar to me. I promise to answer on that tommorow.


  • #381
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,095 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    The Israeli wrote: »
    You are not intrested in seeing the conflict from both sides.

    It's not a conflict, it's an occupation.


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  • #382
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Yo soy el burro wrote: »
    Did anyone see this story: "Israel to deploy 'Iron Dome' anti-rocket system"

    http://www.france24.com/en/20110325-israel-deploy-iron-dome-anti-rocket-syste

    Just wait till its renamed "the pre-emptive anti-rocket system". Meaning its a new way of blowing the crap out of gaza

    And for any one who thought the yanks weren't bankrolling the israeli's!!!
    I know right - Because that's exactly what happened with the Patriot Missile Defense system? And you know they deployed the PDMS in Israel too, right? And there have been *so many* attacks on gaza from Patriot Missile Defense Platforms. Right?

    edit: Also, looks like your article was pulled.


  • #383
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Nodin wrote: »
    There was a time when I beleived that, but as the settlements have expanded and the Palestinian efforts to fight back grew weaker, my mind changed. The gap between sides is too great. Outside of Israel shooting itself in both feet, a leg and trying to run with its bags around its ankles, I can't see the Palestinians getting anything from their own efforts.

    I would, of course, like to be proven very wrong.

    Well you see their own efforts are too fragmented, and until they're a cohesive force both militarily and politically they'll always be weak, and this is Israels strength.


  • #384
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Wibbs, try to read about the lands that Jews bought in Israel before 48.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
    If ever one needed an example of wiki unreliability it's in that link. Even so and I quote; When purchasing land, Jewish migrants were concerned with the displacement of fellahin, agricultural laborers who cultivated the land. "In 1920, Labor Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as 'the most important asset of the native population'. Ben-Gurion said 'under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to the fellahs or worked by them'" Hmmm now let's look at the map of 1947 and look at the map of today and we can see how well that went...
    Wibbs, come on, now the international (the partition plan) law isn't meaningful to you when it comes against your agenda?
    I have no idea what you're talking about. All I've pointed out is the stark fact that since the UN partition, Israel has taken by force more and more land. No matter what side you are on, you simply cannot deny this.
    what about the 48 independance war which the arabs had started a day after Israel got independence? what about the fact they they tried to kick jews out of their legal land, and lost? They fled in millions from the country. They were very cruel. Israelis at that time haven't been much nicer to them during the war. It was a war for survival.
    Oh I agree. The surrounding Arab nations should have said "ok fairs fair, the Jews have had a lot of shít recently and deserve a homeland, so lets leave them alone". Then again those same Arabs were well used to being screwed over by the west since world war 1. They were also used to being ordered about by the west. So along come the Jews, the culturally hated enemy* imposed on them by the same western powers? It was never gonna end well.
    After we won, of course we took the Places the were abonded. Maybe you expect Israelis to say: He guys, you killed about 1/6 of the Jewish population, started the war and broke the law. Wanted to kick us from our legal land but hey!! no offence. Come back :)
    It's remarkable how many parallels the plantation of Ulster and the plantation of Israel there are. Both were "legal", both have similar rhetoric and excuses and history tweaking on both sides(your "they massacred us, therefore we did X Y and Z" = Ulster massacres of 1641), both were imposed on an unwilling population by an outside force and both delineated along religious lines. The only difference is the speed at which it happened and the efficiency of the Jews of Israel in plantation and of course the reporting of it is better. You have more eyes on you and history will not look kindly on much of it.

    The biggest parallel you're going to find is peace will come very very slowly, if ever. As you saw from the date above of 1641 the crap in Ulster started a long long time ago. There's peace there now, but it's delicate and there are still a lot of bitter feelings on both sides. Look at some of the threads on the subject on this site.






    *Let's face it both the Christian and Islamic faith have issues with the Jews. Without the founding of Christianity we can be pretty sure the holocaust would not have happened. Islam has as big an issue with them. Worse in many ways. Well worse in one way, Christianity is less fundamental and powerful these days. IMHO the worst curses on this world have been those three bloody desert religions. Judaism and the ones who evolved from it, Christianity and Islam. If I had a time machine I'd go back 3000 odd years and shoot Abraham in the face. We'd all have a better world today methinks.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #385
    Jason Bald Cemetery
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Jason Bald Cemetery


    Wibbs wrote: »

    *Let's face it both the Christian and Islamic faith have issues with the Jews. Without the founding of Christianity we can be pretty sure the holocaust would not have happened. Islam has as big an issue with them. Worse in many ways. Well worse in one way, Christianity is less fundamental and powerful these days. IMHO the worst curses on this world have been those three bloody desert religions. Judaism and the ones who evolved from it, Christianity and Islam. If I had a time machine I'd go back 3000 odd years and shoot Abraham in the face. We'd all have a better world today methinks.

    It's interesting to think about, but I imagine yet another cult (of the time) would have sprung up and maybe have taken over by now. Hell we could have nearly the same setup now with different deity names.


  • #386
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,095 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Well, The Israeli, you started a thread entitled "Moment of truth for leftists".

    Congrats on a complete and utter failure of a thread which has exposed more of Israel's crimes than it has to garn support for the zionists.


  • #387
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    bluewolf wrote: »
    It's interesting to think about, but I imagine yet another cult (of the time) would have sprung up and maybe have taken over by now. Hell we could have nearly the same setup now with different deity names.
    I dunno, this monotheist lark is rare. Most religions have loads of Gods. People seem to prefer that. Saints/trinity/mary etc. even in "One god" Christianity. Hell the Jews originally had God and his wife. Mrs God. I'd also reckon without Christianity, knowledge of Judaism would likely be miniscule. Just another weird little minority faith. The west knows of it because it nicked the Torah as a backdrop to Christianity, a Jewish "heresy", but got rid of the dafter kosher diet stuff, blood sacrifice and lopping off of bits of willies. Islam wouldn't exist at all. They nicked the Torah and the New testament, but it's more a Christian "heresy" than a Jewish one and was seen as such at the time, though they kept the kosher diet stuff, blood sacrifice and lopping off of bits of willies (and fannies depending on how you read it). Rome would probably have lasted longer too which might have been interesting. I agree we would, being human, have some other weird guff to fight over, but the middle east religions are particularly vicious and self righteous out of the box.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #388
    Jason Bald Cemetery
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Jason Bald Cemetery


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I dunno, this monotheist lark is rare. Most religions have loads of Gods. People seem to prefer that. Saints/trinity/mary etc. even in "One god" Christianity. Hell the Jews originally had God and his wife. Mrs God. I'd also reckon without Christianity, knowledge of Judaism would likely be miniscule. Just another weird little minority faith. The west knows of it because it nicked the Torah as a backdrop to Christianity, a Jewish "heresy", but got rid of the dafter kosher diet stuff, blood sacrifice and lopping off of bits of willies. Islam wouldn't exist at all. They nicked the Torah and the New testament, but it's more a Christian "heresy" than a Jewish one and was seen as such at the time, though they kept the kosher diet stuff, blood sacrifice and lopping off of bits of willies (and fannies depending on how you read it). Rome would probably have lasted longer too which might have been interesting. I agree we would, being human, have some other weird guff to fight over, but the middle east religions are particularly vicious and self righteous out of the box.

    Maybe, but hinduism for example can be regarded as soft polytheism i.e. all the gods are different aspects of the same one. A lot of people would call it monotheistic. I don't know about the Norse one
    I don't know if there is a particular inclination toward one or the other
    It's interesting, I'd love to sit down sometime and study the different types


  • #389
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Well, The Israeli, you started a thread entitled "Moment of truth for leftists".

    Congrats on a complete and utter failure of a thread which has exposed more of Israel's crimes than it has to garn support for the zionists.

    This post, like your posts in this this thread is too stupid for words.


  • #390
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,095 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Brooklynn Unkempt Postage wrote: »
    This post, like your posts in this this thread is too stupid for words.

    How is showing the OP's original quote as a failure "too stupid for words"? :rolleyes:

    Or has ther been a "moment for leftists" that I've missed?

    Upset that I call those who break international law "ciminals"? Boo hoo.


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  • #391
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,604 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Nodin and the fixed anti Israeli commenters: I think I misunderstood some of you from the start. You are not intrested in seeing the conflict from both sides. You are here to defend the Palestinian side no matter what. An answer justifying them will always come. Israeli bad actions will be underlined, Palestinian bad action will be sweeped under the carpet or not mentioned at all.
    Despite of the intelliget and a polite conversation, it seems that you aren't making any effort to balance yourselves. It really looks redicules to me, that your world is so onesided. Even me, though being side in the conflict, try to see the situation from both places and I openly write about it, but you should be a neutral side by default.
    Everything you say is pro palestinian and the only thing that you condemn is killing people (at least some of you).
    I think that the best suited way to talk is to say: I support side A or side B and I will prove why they are right. You are neutral observers in disguise.

    A tired tactic.
    Making broadstroke phantom/baseless accusation comes across as a diversionary tactic because you are not keen to answer the legitimate questions puts to you. I think you'll find most people arguing against you in this thread are just pro justice and people not having their human rights denied.


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