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Moment of truth for leftists (except scumlord because he likes The Zohan)

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Comments

  • #332
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    Extraordinary Steps Eh??????????

    Ordinary steps would have been to not Shell the Sh!t out of them in the first place

    ETA
    rather than comment on the Large print, how about a discussion on the statement


  • #333
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    NTMK, you are fully right about the white phosphorus.
    As result of that 3 people got injured, and as I have read, the commanding officers weren't really punished for endangering the population. I agree that that is fishy.
    Though still, saying that Israel uses illegal weapon on the palestinians all the time would be a huge lie too.. Let's be correct.

    Nodin, those territories that the palestinians claim to be their own, eastern to the border with Gaza, are legal Israeli territories. So why do you say that they are not? They are within the 67's lines. What else do you want?

    That "Anti Palestinian" web site was founded to balance the Palestinian criticism of Israel with TRUE facts. What's there not to believe.. You can try to prove wrong any of the reviews on this site if you think that you can. This site shows the real Palestinian readiness for the peace.
    Examples: Giving money prizes to suicide terrorists by Abas himself!!!
    Teaching hatred at schools towards Israel. I can assure you that that's not what we learn at school.
    I never said that All or even majority of the Palestinians are beasts.
    I headed for the hills because i sensed that it's a subject that I don't understand a lot at. From what I read and see, it's not really true. Who is more to blame, I don't know.
    Judging by the past, Israel had gone really far with its offers towards the palestinians when Ehud Barak and even Olmert were prime ministers. I can dig that out, if it's important.
    I do agree, that Natanyahoo's government isn't doing enough but I also think that it has some culming effect because the security situation hasn't been bad at all since he has been selected.
    Overheal, this is an important question and I will think about it and answer later.


  • #334
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    Dig it out, it is IMPORTANTto Back up your LIES with Historic Reference of when the LIES were first used

    YOU sicken me, your defence of the IDF even when you KNOW they are in the wrong, your blinkered and Caustic vision of the world is whats wrong


  • #335
    Katkatim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 30 ✭Katkatim


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    LOOK you miserable little Zionist apologists.

    Get Your Facts Straight

    The Palestinians are NOT Firing Rockets at Israel,

    They are Firing Rockets at an Israeli force of Occupation and Illegal Settlements on THEIR Land


    Had you used normal font, you'd have looked ignorant and very badly informed. But now that you've used large fonts, you look...ignoarant, badly informed, and completely hysterical.
    Take a deep breath. This is just a discussion on a message board that most of the people involved in the conflict don't even know exists.
    (And...open a map...?)


  • #336
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Nodin, those territories that the palestinians claim to be their own, eastern to the border with Gaza, are legal Israeli territories. So why do you say that they are not? They are within the 67's lines. What else do you want?

    What group claims them? If you want to slag off the Palestinian position, address the one being taken by Abbas in the documents I linked to.
    That "Anti Palestinian" web site was founded to balance the Palestinian criticism of Israel with TRUE facts.

    I linked leaked documentation, not "Palestinian criticism".
    What's there not to believe.. You can try to prove wrong any of the reviews on this site if you think that you can.

    ....which of course, would distract from the discussion of the issues contained in the documents I linked, and the illegal occupation and settlement of the territories.
    This site shows the real Palestinian readiness for the peace.

    Examples: Giving money prizes to suicide terrorists by Abas himself!!!

    If they collected in person, I can only say he should start a religous movement.




    Do you have a problem with "terrorists"?
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article690085.ece
    Better write a note to Benji.
    The Israeli wrote: »

    Teaching hatred at schools towards Israel.

    Ahh, the old classics are coming out. Soon we'll be at Argumentum Ad Mufti, which is always good for a laugh.

    EUROPEAN UNION STATEMENT ON PALESTINIAN SCHOOLBOOKS
    Brussels, 15 May 2002

    In September 2000 Palestinian Authority and UNRWA schools introduced the new Palestinian school curriculum and a first set of textbooks (grades 1 and 6) published by the Palestinian Authority, that were to replace the previous textbooks. At the beginning of the 2001 academic year, books for grades 2 and 7 were introduced. This replacement process will be gradually implemented over the coming years.

    Parallel to this process, allegations of anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish bias and incitement contained in Palestinian textbooks were made, directly or indirectly based on documentation prepared by the CMIP (Centre for Monitoring the Impact on Peace). CMIP based those claims on specific quotations from these books inciting anti-Semitism and urging the destruction of Israel.

    A number of EU donors support the Palestinian education sector and a few of them sponsored the preparation of the first Palestinian curriculum and the production of new textbooks.

    Information gathered by the EU missions on the ground, as well as independent studies carried out by Israeli and Palestinian academics and educators that have examined the new textbooks, show that:
    1. Quotations attributed by earlier CMIP reports to the Palestinian textbooks are not found in the new Palestinian Authority schoolbooks funded by some EU Member States; some were traced to the old Egyptian and Jordanian text books that they are replacing, some to other books outside the school curriculum, and others not traced at all. While many of the quotations attributed to the new textbooks by the most recent CMIP report of November 2001 could be confirmed, these have been found to be often badly translated or quoted out of context, thus suggesting an anti-Jewish incitement that the books do not contain.
    2. New textbooks, though not perfect, are free of inciteful content and improve the previous textbooks, constituting a valuable contribution to the education of young Palestinians. Palestinian Authority Ministry of Education has accepted the need for ongoing review, revision and improvement.
    Therefore, allegations against the new textbooks funded by EU members have proven unfounded
    http://www.pcdc.edu.ps/eu_on_palestinian_schoolbooks.htm
    The Israeli wrote: »

    I can assure you that that's not what we learn at school.


    Now? No. Previously though....
    From 1999 wrote:
    Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

    “The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as "'robbers,' 'bloodthirsty,' and 'killers,'". said Professor Bar-Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.

    Bar-Tal pointed out that Israeli textbooks continue to present Jews as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of “improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of.”.
    Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel’s ancient past and how the land was “neglected and destroyed”. by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it “with the help of the Zionist movement.”.
    ......................
    This message, continued Bar-Tal, was further emphasized in textbooks by the use of blatant negative stereotyping which featured Arabs as: “unenlightened, inferior, fatalistic, unproductive and apathetic.”. Further, according to the textbooks, the Arabs were “tribal, vengeful, exotic, poor, sick, dirty, noisy, colored”. and “they burn, murder, destroy, and are easily inflamed.”.
    http://www.wrmea.com/component/content/article/179/9609-israeli-textbooks-and-childrens-literature-promote-racism-and-hatred-toward-palestinians-and-arabs.html
    I headed for the hills because i sensed that it's a subject that I don't understand a lot at.

    ...and nothing whatsoever to do with the fact it overturns the narrative of the problem being with the Palestinian side.
    From what I read and see, it's not really true.

    ...denial. Yes, that'll make it alllll go away. Those documents are verified. I'd suggest learning to deal with it.




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  • #337
    ElaElaElano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭ElaElaElano


    I haven't read through the 23 pages so apologies if this has been mentioned, but Noam Chomsky, a very well known vocal campaigner against Israel, was born and raised as Jewish. Shock, horror. Left-wing and Jewish.

    Now I'm guessing he's not anti-semitic?


  • #338
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    ElaElaElano wrote: »
    I haven't read through the 23 pages so apologies if this has been mentioned, but Noam Chomsky, a very well known vocal campaigner against Israel, was born and raised as Jewish. Shock, horror. Left-wing and Jewish.

    Now I'm guessing he's not anti-semitic?

    +1

    http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/


  • #339
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Katkatim wrote: »
    This is just a discussion on a message board that most of the people involved in the conflict don't even know exists.

    Absolutely spot on!.


  • #340
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,604 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    http://stagevu.com/video/lucpeygemuow


  • #341
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    So I can take it as read that neither Katkathim or The isreali are willing to address the point I raised

    your silence Says a lot :rolleyes:


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  • #342
    Katkatim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 30 ✭Katkatim


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    So I can take it as read that neither Katkathim or The isreali are willing to address the point I raised

    your silence Says a lot :rolleyes:



    Are you serious?
    What exactly do you want us to address? Your claim that missiles aren't fired at Israel? I told you. Open a map. Tell me where Sderot, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Be'er Sheva are.
    You're not giving a point of view, and you're not giving facts. So what is there to discuss?


  • #343
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,095 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    ElaElaElano wrote: »
    I haven't read through the 23 pages so apologies if this has been mentioned, but Noam Chomsky, a very well known vocal campaigner against Israel, was born and raised as Jewish. Shock, horror. Left-wing and Jewish.

    Now I'm guessing he's not anti-semitic?

    No, but jews with his opinions on the Israeli occupation usually get called a self-hating jew by zionists.

    They can't really call him an anti-semite so they have to go with that.

    Name calling in a sad attempt to distract from his thoughts.


  • #344
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Katkatim wrote: »
    Are you serious?
    What exactly do you want us to address? Your claim that missiles aren't fired at Israel? I told you. Open a map. Tell me where Sderot, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Be'er Sheva are.
    You're not giving a point of view, and you're not giving facts. So what is there to discuss?

    You'll find there is nothing to discuss with Mahatma Coat, he'll ironically call you blinkered and caustic.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #345
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    Katkatim wrote: »
    Are you serious?
    What exactly do you want us to address? Your claim that missiles aren't fired at Israel? I told you. Open a map. Tell me where Sderot, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Be'er Sheva are.
    You're not giving a point of view, and you're not giving facts. So what is there to discuss?
    the Cities you Mentioned are all in territories STOLEN BY FORCE from the Palestinians,

    Dosent matter how many maps you draw up claiming them as yours, its Stolen Land, and you have to give it back


  • #346
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    the Cities you Mentioned are all in territories STOLEN BY FORCE from the Palestinians,

    Dosent matter how many maps you draw up claiming them as yours, its Stolen Land, and you have to give it back

    Your a gluten for punishment - she's eating you alive, and your making it easier with each & every post you make.

    Sorry to see you drop the capital lettering - you were amusing in your hysterics.


  • #347
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    Really, I must be lookin at a different thread, all I see here is adhomenim and cheap attempts to divert away from the point I made.

    The Land is Stolen, Israel are an Occupying force, the settlements are Illegal as is the ethnic cleansing and apartheid.

    it matters not a feck what Lies the zionists peddle or what bullsh1t maps they draw up, they are the Facts of the situation.


  • #348
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Mahatma coat wrote: »
    Really, I must be lookin at a different thread, all I see here is adhomenim and cheap attempts to divert away from the point I made.

    The Land is Stolen, Israel are an Occupying force, the settlements are Illegal as is the ethnic cleansing and apartheid.

    it matters not a feck what Lies the zionists peddle or what bullsh1t maps they draw up, they are the Facts of the situation.

    No, bold and big letters just don't work.

    It isn't just you.

    So what race do you like Mahatma, as a self confessed racist?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #349
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    K-9 wrote: »
    ...........So what race do you like Mahatma, as a self confessed racist?

    I can guess who it isn't......
    mahatma coat wrote:
    I've met a lot of Israelis & Jews on my travels too, a despicable race of people based on my experiences, cant think of one that wasnt up themselves.

    I was asked for evidence that The Jews Run Hollywood, I provided a list of Jews who Run Hollywood.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58050177&postcount=42
    mahatma coat wrote:
    you seem to be missing the point I was making

    that was the First Act of War that ultimatley led to the destruction of Europe, The ''innocent'' Jews started it
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70376646&postcount=94
    mahatma coat wrote:
    Jew Watch is a useful reference site
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68514250&postcount=90


  • #350
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    ElaElaElano wrote: »
    I haven't read through the 23 pages so apologies if this has been mentioned, but Noam Chomsky, a very well known vocal campaigner against Israel, was born and raised as Jewish. Shock, horror. Left-wing and Jewish.

    Now I'm guessing he's not anti-semitic?

    They call him a self hating jew.

    though, left wing jews are far from rare.


  • #351
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    This thread is about to be wrapped up.


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  • #352
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    biko wrote: »
    This thread is about to be wrapped up.

    Can you leave it open for awhile and just issue a warning re. off topic posting and posts inciting hatred please.

    There is some good discussion in it if one can wade through the BS hatred stuff.


  • #353
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Brooklynn Unkempt Postage wrote: »
    Your a gluten for punishment - she's eating you alive, and your making it easier with each & every post you make.

    Sorry to see you drop the capital lettering - you were amusing in your hysterics.
    I agree M, their points are all over the place, but the simple fact is that the state of Israel and it's growth was and still is an act of religious and ethnic plantation since the 1940's. The Irish have an issue with that and a bitter history of that. A history that is still going on to some degree. Of all nations in Europe no wonder we tend towards sympathy for the Palestinian cause. I would too, even though I consider miliatant Islam a far bigger danger to the world than militant Judaism

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #354
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Overheal -
    Here are the main points as I see them:
    1) The Palestinians have to acknowledge the right if the Israeli state to exist. They still refuse to do so.
    2) The retreat would be the final Israeli move, therefore the Palestinians would have to accept that they will not be able to return to the places of 48 and declare that they will not have any further land claims from Israel .
    3) The Palestinian armed forces would have to be fully committed to maintaining peaceful borders with Israel and do everything they can to prevent if terror attacks from taking place.
    4) Peace education and public announcement that their historic conflict with Israel is over.
    To be certain and to build trust this process should take several years and will give time for Israel to evacuate the settlements.

    Nodin –
    "
    The Hotel housed the Mandate Secretariat as well as the Army Headquarters. On July 1946 (sic) Irgun fighters at the order of the Hebrew Resistance Movement planted explosives in the basement. Warning phone calls had been made urging the hotel’s occupants to leave immediately. For reasons known only to the British the hotel was not evacuated and after 25 minutes the bombs exploded, and to the Irgun’s regret and dismay 91 persons were killed.
    The amended version
    . . .Warning phone calls had been made to the hotel, the Palestine Post and the French Consulate, urging the hotel’s occupants to leave immediately.
    The hotel was not evacuated, and after 25 minutes the bombs exploded. The entire western wing was destroyed, and to the Irgun’s regret 92 persons were killed.
    "

    Well, it was a LOT of time ago. Also, the organization expressed its sorrow and also we do learn about them at schools but they aren't presented as the ultimate role models. They are presented as people that helped to establish the Israeli state but we don't have special celebrations or some ritual for them.

    Also, have you forgot your fight against the Brits that had led to your independence?
    You have used the tactics that would be considered as terror in now days, and you are still very proud of those actions.

    The main reasons that are failing the current negotiations are:
    The Palestinians are to be blamed for-
    1) The Palestinians don't agree to put the "right of return" on the table at the moment.
    2) They don't agree to discuss on any territory that Israel holds in Western Jerusalem which houses many thousands of Israelis. Not even to discuss?
    This is a major problem because Jerusalem is very important to Jews and it's the Israeli capital, therefor it should be open for negotiations, no doubt.
    Things had changed since 67. You can't unroll everything back. As you can't unroll back to 48, or back to 800 BC. The Palestinians have to accept the implications of their actions in 48, and the actions of the Arab nations which they had actively supported.
    The Israelis are to be blamed for:
    After a period of six months during which Israel had frozen any construction in the territories, Israel renewed it and decided not to freeze it again for now.
    I've attended school between 1990 to 2001 and I can assure you that I haven't absorbed and hatred towards the Palestinians. You were talking about the 50-70.. Very relevant, and also I haven't seen those textbooks.
    Noam Chomsky is a known Jewish person that criticizes Israel regularly. So what? The fact that he is Jewish doesn't make him to be a prove for anything. He has his private opinion, which is very anti-Israeli, and that's all. He represents no one but himself and the people that hold his opinion. Don't be surprised that there are Jews that are against Israel. There are, people are people and hold many different opinions.

    Mahatma Coat, sorry but as I see it from reading all your comments, is that there is no real point in discussing with you, as you don't talk or listen but only preach with anger and also you don't represent the Irish mainstream opinion but rather a Palestinian extreme one.

    And about the current news: The Hamas is launching rockets on a daily bases on southern Israel.
    A terror bomb exploded in Jerusalem killing one, and wounding many. Condemns please..

    In Syria – more than dead 100 demonstrators. Condemns for Syria please.

    Try to do this exercise: Israel killed 100 demonstrators. I wonder what fuzz it would have made..


  • #355
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,095 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    By 1948, jews only owned 6% of the land in Palestine.

    If Israel wants to keep all its land, it can pay for it and damages.

    No to land theft.


  • #356
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    Look again at the UN partition plan


  • #357
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Nodin –
    "
    The Hotel housed the Mandate Secretariat (.........)as terror in now days, and you are still very proud of those actions. ..

    I'm not condemning it, I'm pointing out that criticising Abbas for 'celebrating' terrorism is rather hypocritical.

    As for 'role models' - Irgun veterans are recognised by a medal from the state as are the even more extreme Lehi.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    The Palestinians are to be blamed for-
    1) The Palestinians don't agree to put the "right of return" on the table at the moment...
    The Palestinian Authority's anger over the leak of confidential documents about the stricken Middle East peace process is likely to be matched by outrage among many Palestinians at the revelation that their negotiators privately agreed that a token number of refugees, just 10,000, would be allowed to return to Israel.
    (my bold)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/palestinians-10000-refugees-return-israel
    The Israeli wrote: »

    2) They don't agree to discuss on any territory that Israel holds in Western Jerusalem which houses many thousands of Israelis. Not even to discuss?

    You mean east Jerusalem.
    Palestinian negotiators secretly agreed to allow Israel to annex all but one of the settlements built in occupied East Jerusalem in the most far-reaching concessions ever made over the bitterly contested city. The offer was turned down by Israel's then foreign minister as inadequate.

    Palestinian Authority leaders also privately discussed giving up part of the flashpoint Arab neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah, according to leaked documents. And they proposed a joint committee to take over the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount holy sites in the Old City of Jerusalem – the highly sensitive issue that, along with refugee rights, sank the Camp David talks in 2000 and triggered the second Palestinian intifada.
    (my bold)

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestinians-israel-biggest-jerusalem-history?intcmp=239


    The Israeli wrote: »
    The Israelis are to be blamed for:

    After a period of six months during which Israel had frozen any construction in the territories, Israel renewed it and decided not to freeze it again for now.

    The Israelis are to be blamed for a great deal more than that, as above.

    I might add that the construction freeze only covered certain categories of buildings. It was not total. You may look it up.
    I've attended school between 1990 to 2001 and I can assure you that I haven't absorbed and hatred towards the Palestinians. You were talking about the 50-70.. Very relevant, and also I haven't seen those textbooks.

    Anecdotes. Not helpful.
    The Israeli wrote: »
    Try to do this exercise: Israel killed 100 demonstrators. I wonder what fuzz it would have made..

    Syria is a pariah state under UN sanctions, isn't it?


  • #358
    Crea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Crea


    Israeli - if you want to get a look at what your government is to "blame" for please have a look at this and other articles on this website

    http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=935


  • #359
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,604 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...the usual special pleading, in which the Palestinian is singled out as a uniquely dangerous beast. It's funny, but when the Palestinian movement was largely secular, there were excuses then too.

    .

    With this in mind at one stage Israel thought it better to support islamic fundamentalists because the secularists were too dangerous.

    Al-Mujamma al Islami, which later became Hamas, received crucial support from Israel in the 1970s and 80s as part of Israel's efforts to weaken the secular PLO. Following "the worse the better" theory, Israel sought to make any potential leader of a Palestinian state illegitmate to the west as part of its effort build a "Greater Israel."

    Back then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: "The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place," said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named.

    You have to ask yourself does this mentality still exists among some on the right in Israel today? If so, what hope is there for a peace deal with such people in power? They'll do anything to scupper a peace deal.


  • #360
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,095 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Look again at the UN partition plan

    Why?

    Did it legalise ethnic cleansing and land theft?


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  • #361
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    nacho libre wrote: »
    With this in mind at one stage Israel thought it better to support islamic fundamentalists because the secularists were too dangerous.

    Al-Mujamma al Islami, which later became Hamas, received crucial support from Israel in the 1970s and 80s as part of Israel's efforts to weaken the secular PLO. Following "the worse the better" theory, Israel sought to make any potential leader of a Palestinian state illegitmate to the west as part of its effort build a "Greater Israel."

    Back then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: "The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place," said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named.

    You have to ask yourself does this mentality still exists among some on the right in Israel today? If so, what hope is there for a peace deal with such people in power? They'll do anything to scupper a peace deal.

    While that may be true, its has to be viewed in the light of the consequences they face for their behaviour. These are, obviously, non existent. Thus without risk of penalty, theres no incentive on them to act differently. Were this to change, I think they'd suddenly become more pragmatic.


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