Screen Students for Grants ... wasters don't get a penny!

PeakOutput · 21-03-2011 07:55PM

Buceph wrote: »

The more idiots who pass the lower their international prestige so less research money. They have incentive to maintain their standards.

Universities are not judged on their undergraduate population though, when it comes to rankings/prestige its about who is on the staff, how often they are referenced, how many nobel prizes they have etc etc undergrad performance does not come into it.

CatFromHue · 21-03-2011 07:58PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

I agree - the leaving cert is not, and should not be considered a measure of ones intelligence. Anyone can learn off an Irish essay by heart if they're bothered...

then why doesnt everyone get 600points in the leaving?

did you ever hear of this guys book / theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)

hard work in the leaving is a good indication that someone will work hard in college.

Buceph · 21-03-2011 07:59PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

Universities are not judged on their undergraduate population though, when it comes to rankings/prestige its about who is on the staff, how often they are referenced, how many nobel prizes they have etc etc undergrad performance does not come into it.

And what about the jobs graduates end up in, the NUI and externs checking papers, the recruitment of future students, the attraction of foreign students. Universities definitely have an incentive to maintain standards.

PeakOutput · 21-03-2011 08:00PM

Buceph wrote: »

And what about the jobs graduates end up in, the NUI and externs checking papers, the recruitment of future students, the attraction of foreign students. Universities definitely have an incentive to maintain standards.

I have this argument here numerous times before, if you think that irish universities have good/high standards at undergraduate level thats great. I dont.

Buceph · 21-03-2011 08:05PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

I have this argument here numerous times before, if you think that irish universities have good/high standards at undergraduate level thats great. I dont.

It doesn't matter whether the standards are good enough or high enough as is. If the government wants to address that they should do it through the proper channels. Creating a secondary system from the university's own when it comes to grants is the wrong way to do things. If the university deems the level of work acceptable, that should be the end of the matter when it comes to grants.

Copper23 · 21-03-2011 08:19PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

I'll start by saying I'm a student and fully support the fees initiative as it opens education to those who otherwise would have a hard time getting the same level of it - including myself.

Which is why it pisses me off to see around half my course not coming in, planning on failing and repeating, not trying and only going to college because their parents are making them. Fees including maintainance grant can cost up to €8,000 per year per student!

Would you agree that applicants who get grants should be screened to show they're a worthwhile investment for the government - or at the very least made to achieve minimum grade levels, have minimum attendance etc...

We could save millions by cutting loose those who do feck all - not to mention free up spaces in courses for those who actually want to try... :mad:

They ARE screened, but some just seem to know all the knacks, tricks and the right people and seem to get everything going.
Used know someone who never bothered to go in at all, like, almost never, just pissed about on the college computers and spent their grant money buying mobile phones and stuff.
I would make the college aware of it. I didn't know this to begin with but if someone is using college resources and hanging around campus and so on but does not actually attend any courses it's not looked well upon (registered or not) and the college will take action... feck them, why should we all pay for them.

Fukuyama · 21-03-2011 08:23PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

then why doesnt everyone get 600points in the leaving?

did you ever hear of this guys book / theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)

hard work in the leaving is a good indication that someone will work hard in college.

They'll work hard. No doubt. But are they intelligent? Will they be usefull or simply fill a slot somewhere? There are people who get 600 points but struggle at articulating things unless there is a method of learning off.

To answer your question, not everyone gets 600 points for numerous reasons:

Are not bothered
Don't see getting 600 points as being important
Would rather have fun than worring about obtaining a silly number
Don't want to become a surgeon and as such cannot justify such an investment of time and effort

Seaneh · 22-03-2011 12:44PM

phasers wrote: »

What if you have flu or something? Do you have to get a doctor's note or do you just not get any money?

Oh also, technically grants requite you to have 75% attendance (should be higher) , but most colleges don't take attendance so it's impossible to police.

If you got a doctors note, you were fine.

If you missed 10(maybe15) days in a semister without a reason you were turfed out of the course.

mickydoomsux · 22-03-2011 12:53PM

I know 4 people from the same family who all got full grants when they went to college. Only one of them didn't drop out.

Needless to say the other three didn't hand back their grant money they'd aready gotten and kept claiming the installments due long after they dropped out. Horribly broken system like everything else in this country that involves giving people free money.

kelle · 22-03-2011 12:54PM

Seaneh wrote: »

when I studied professional cookery we would be docked money from our training grants for any time missed. If you missed a lecture, you lost a days pay. If you missed 2 days you got nothing that week.
Should bring the same for all students.

tricks wrote: »

Except all students don't get grants?

When I was a student in London, I didn't get a grant - but we had to attend lectures and departmental placements, otherwise it was recorded and information available for future employers or post-grad course leaders!

bradyle · 22-03-2011 01:09PM

That idea is horribly unfair. I get the grant but still need to work every weekend so i have enough money to go to college. I've failed 2 of the 3 years i've done so far only gettin through on repeats so by your standards i guess id be one of those wasters.

I have worked my ass of to stay in my course its hard and theres areas of it im not good at so while i do well in most subjects there is a few that i did badly in. and because i need to work the weekends i have less time to devote than those who dont. I spend my summers studying to try and catch up and ensure i pass my repeats.

But what because i dont get grades that someone out there finds satisfactory you think i shouldnt get to go to college, and sure i could have chosen an easier course (im in engineering) but why should i have had to if i come the end of it i will be able to get my degree and a good one at that hopefully.

Your idea is unfair and doesnt take into account whats going on in the persons life and you should think before making such broad generalisations of people

mickydoomsux · 22-03-2011 01:39PM

bradyle wrote: »

That idea is horribly unfair. I get the grant but still need to work every weekend so i have enough money to go to college. I've failed 2 of the 3 years i've done so far only gettin through on repeats so by your standards i guess id be one of those wasters.

I have worked my ass of to stay in my course its hard and theres areas of it im not good at so while i do well in most subjects there is a few that i did badly in. and because i need to work the weekends i have less time to devote than those who dont. I spend my summers studying to try and catch up and ensure i pass my repeats.

But what because i dont get grades that someone out there finds satisfactory you think i shouldnt get to go to college, and sure i could have chosen an easier course (im in engineering) but why should i have had to if i come the end of it i will be able to get my degree and a good one at that hopefully.

Your idea is unfair and doesnt take into account whats going on in the persons life and you should think before making such broad generalisations of people

Wow. You are going to get some shock once you go out in the real world.

Not everyone gets to succeed. The world isn't fair.

PeakOutput · 22-03-2011 01:53PM

bradyle wrote: »

That idea is horribly unfair. I get the grant but still need to work every weekend so i have enough money to go to college. I've failed 2 of the 3 years i've done so far only gettin through on repeats so by your standards i guess id be one of those wasters.

I have worked my ass of to stay in my course its hard and theres areas of it im not good at so while i do well in most subjects there is a few that i did badly in. and because i need to work the weekends i have less time to devote than those who dont. I spend my summers studying to try and catch up and ensure i pass my repeats.

But what because i dont get grades that someone out there finds satisfactory you think i shouldnt get to go to college, and sure i could have chosen an easier course (im in engineering) but why should i have had to if i come the end of it i will be able to get my degree and a good one at that hopefully.

Your idea is unfair and doesnt take into account whats going on in the persons life and you should think before making such broad generalisations of people

if i remember correctly the full grant is 6/7k over the course of the year?(maybe 5K) that is more then enough to cover rent and living expenses and if it is not you always have the option of a student loan

also every system will have people on the fringes who are effected but shouldnt be thats just tough, the trick is finding the system that effects the least amount of people like that while still being fair and affordable for the majority

NTMK · 22-03-2011 02:34PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

if i remember correctly the full grant is 6/7k over the course of the year?(maybe 5K) that is more then enough to cover rent and living expenses and if it is not you always have the option of a student loan

also every system will have people on the fringes who are effected but shouldnt be thats just tough, the trick is finding the system that effects the least amount of people like that while still being fair and affordable for the majority

you get 3K(2K goes to fees) and have you tried to get a student loan in the last 3 years its nearly impossible

pragmatic1 · 22-03-2011 02:38PM

Seaneh wrote: »

when I studied professional cookery we would be docked money from our training grants for any time missed. If you missed a lecture, you lost a days pay. If you missed 2 days you got nothing that week.
Should bring the same for all students.

Bet yous got a lot more than students though and students will lose their grant if their attendance is poor. I remember my cousin doing an electrician course and he was on a few hundred a week. We need electricians but they arent exactly a major source of revenue for the country.

pragmatic1 · 22-03-2011 02:43PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

if i remember correctly the full grant is 6/7k over the course of the year?(maybe 5K) that is more then enough to cover rent and living expenses and if it is not you always have the option of a student loan

also every system will have people on the fringes who are effected but shouldnt be thats just tough, the trick is finding the system that effects the least amount of people like that while still being fair and affordable for the majority

I got the grant and it was nowhere near that. Not a hope of getting a student loan. The vast majority work and go to college.

Tar.Aldarion · 22-03-2011 02:59PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

if i remember correctly the full grant is 6/7k over the course of the year?(maybe 5K) that is more then enough to cover rent and living expenses and if it is not you always have the option of a student loan

also every system will have people on the fringes who are effected but shouldnt be thats just tough, the trick is finding the system that effects the least amount of people like that while still being fair and affordable for the majority

3 grand at most, doesn't even cover rent really, just about. You still have to work to buy food and pay bills, and gamble for more money like I did!

bradyle · 22-03-2011 03:10PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Wow. You are going to get some shock once you go out in the real world.

Not everyone gets to succeed. The world isn't fair.

I know the world isn't fair i work every weekend and am over four grand in debt so i can go to college while there are others that waste their go knowin that mammy or daddy will pick up the bill if they drop out and try again.

I just mean that everyone should be given the chance to go to college and go into the world of work and try and succeed and with the idea of screening people without taking into account their own standing isnt fair and while yea you're right the real world isnt fair the right to an education for everyone should be.

Tar.Aldarion · 22-03-2011 03:13PM

I don't see why they don't have a system where college is 'free' to enter, with the fees just being hidden. The government charge you, but afterwards, whether you complete college or not. Simply take a percentage/amount out of any money earned afterwards. You could even have to pay back more than you took, for fees, accommodation, food etc afterwards.

PeakOutput · 22-03-2011 03:17PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

3 grand at most, doesn't even cover rent really, just about. You still have to work to buy food and pay bills, and gamble for more money like I did!

Full maintenance grant is 4,550 if you live more then 24km from your college. that is after the 2010 budget so i imagine it was more before then.

also my room mate last year when asked how much his grant was explained it was around 5,500 plus registrations fees obviously

Not a hope of getting a student loan

why not? have you applied? I have been able to get student loans every year I have been in college, it was a little harder this year in that they would not give me the full amount i asked for but they did every other year. two of my room mates this year have also been able to get student loans and credit union loans, one of them has one of each.

you get 3K(2K goes to fees) and have you tried to get a student loan in the last 3 years its nearly impossible

yes, see above, every year for the last 4 and it has not been a big problem

Tar.Aldarion · 22-03-2011 03:21PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

Full maintenance grant is 4,550 if you live more then 24km from your college. that is after the 2010 budget so i imagine it was more before then.

also my room mate last year when asked how much his grant was explained it was around 5,500 plus registrations fees obviously

As I said, you get 3k... probably less now. The rest is fees. Sounds like 2k if his was 5.5 and it's 4.5 now.

PeakOutput · 22-03-2011 03:28PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

As I said, you get 3k... probably less now. The rest is fees. Sounds like 2k if his was 5.5 and it's 4.5 now.

no no, just double checked that with my room mate his fees are paid on top of the 4k he gets he only has to pay 90euro out of that 4K towards fees

Tar.Aldarion · 22-03-2011 03:31PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

no no, just double checked that with my room mate his fees are paid on top of the 4k he gets he only has to pay 90euro out of that 4K towards fees

Then that is not a student maintenance grant, which people in my family have received over the last 7 years consecutively. I got it last year for a masters and got 3k, which was the 100% amount. it was never 5k or 4k in that time, so I don't know what he gets but I want it. :pac:

pragmatic1 · 22-03-2011 03:35PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

why not? have you applied? I have been able to get student loans every year I have been in college, it was a little harder this year in that they would not give me the full amount i asked for but they did every other year. two of my room mates this year have also been able to get student loans and credit union loans, one of them has one of each.

Yeah tried to get one in my final year and like I said, not a hope. Good friend of mine had to drop out of his course as he was surviving on thin air by the middle of the year. Yet fas people getting a ****load of cash, often for bull**** courses.

Tar.Aldarion · 22-03-2011 03:36PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Yeah tried to get one in my final year and like I said, not a hope. Good friend of mine had to drop out of his course as he was surviving on thin air by the middle of the year. Yet fas people getting a ****load of cash, often for bull**** courses.

Lay off my brick laying course :pac:

pragmatic1 · 22-03-2011 03:36PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Then that is not a student maintenance grant, which people in my family have received over the last 7 years consecutively. I got it last year for a masters and got 3k, which was the 100% amount. it was never 5k or 4k in that time, so I don't know what he gets but I want it. :pac:

I'll vouch for that too. Got the grant for three years and it was never that amount.

PeakOutput · 22-03-2011 03:38PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Then that is not a student maintenance grant, which people in my family have received over the last 7 years consecutively. I got it last year for a masters and got 3k, which was the 100% amount. it was never 5k or 4k in that time, so I don't know what he gets but I want it. :pac:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third_level_education/fees_and_supports_for_third_level_education/maintenance_grant_schemes_for_students_on_third_level_courses.html

under the heading 'rates' it clearly states the full maintenance grant is 3250, if you live more then 24k from the college you get 1,300 on top of that and you dont have to pay the registration fee(although it dosnt say that on that page)

now dont get me wrong, I think the grants should be far far more but only given to people who really need them but I do think that the way the current grant system and loans system works anyone who gets a grant can attend college without having to work.

I also think there should be a scholoraship system for particularly gifted people to get a free ride rent food partying everything paid for and finally I think there should be full fees for everyone who dosnt qualify for a grant or scholarship but thats for a different thread.

As I said earlier I dont think someone averaging 40%-50% should receive money from the state to complete their education

Oranage2 · 22-03-2011 03:43PM

made 10k working part time and also got a 2.5k grant when in college, to be honest, if i didn't get the grant there would be no way i could have gone to Vegas that year.

to answer the op. question i think it would be a good idea to give the grant out monthly and depending on your attendance.

NTMK · 22-03-2011 03:45PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

Full maintenance grant is 4,550 if you live more then 24km from your college. that is after the 2010 budget so i imagine it was more before then.

also my room mate last year when asked how much his grant was explained it was around 5,500 plus registrations fees obviously

why not? have you applied? I have been able to get student loans every year I have been in college, it was a little harder this year in that they would not give me the full amount i asked for but they did every other year. two of my room mates this year have also been able to get student loans and credit union loans, one of them has one of each.

yes, see above, every year for the last 4 and it has not been a big problem

the full non adjacent grant is 3250 + €2000fees
http://www.studentfinance.ie/mp7559/check-grant-levels/index.html

top up grant is very tough to get because of all the rings you ned to go through to get it
I havent been able to get a loan becuase in order to get a loan from ulster bank you need to prove you dont need a loan

as was said the grant barely covers rent for the year

PeakOutput · 22-03-2011 03:51PM

NTMK wrote: »

the full non adjacent grant is 3250 + €2000fees
http://www.studentfinance.ie/mp7559/check-grant-levels/index.html

top up grant is very tough to get because of all the rings you ned to go through to get it
I havent been able to get a loan becuase in order to get a loan from ulster bank you need to prove you dont need a loan

as was said the grant barely covers rent for the year

Ah the top up thats what I was forgetting about he gets the top up as well my bad

however,

ulster bank literally last week gave me 650 euro with no questions asked and no guarantor signature, that is potentially 8 weeks living expenses for me and aib would give me the exact same facility if I wanted it. I honestly think there are options out there for people, if you choose to work fine but I do believe it is a choice for most people

Screen Students for Grants ... wasters don't get a penny!

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