US Army kill team in Afghanistan

Chaotic_Forces · 21-03-2011 07:18PM

RichieC wrote: »

Heritage foundation is.

So you're telling me they just ignored facts and made up things?

Micky Dolenz · 21-03-2011 07:19PM

War is full of terror....shocker.

Overheal · 21-03-2011 07:19PM

RichieC wrote: »

Right wing thinktank, nice and unbiased.

Ad Hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you have any real contradictory evidence to the census data?

RichieC · 21-03-2011 07:20PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

So you're telling me they just ignored facts and made up things?

Wouldn't be the first time "heritage foundation calculations based on..."

RichieC · 21-03-2011 07:21PM

Overheal wrote: »

Ad Hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you have any real contradictory evidence to the census data?

not arguing the data, just pointing out the HF are right wing scum not to be trusted.

Chaotic_Forces · 21-03-2011 07:22PM

RichieC wrote: »

Wouldn't be the first time "heritage foundation calculations based on..."

In the case then I want to say everything that is "based" on everything is a lie. And your opinion is based on something so it is wrong.

See, you shouldn't use it as an argument. If you wanted to refuse to believe it's accurate, that's fine. But saying it's all right-wing and whatnot isn't really a point, it's just an opinion.

Raging_Ninja · 21-03-2011 07:22PM

RichieC wrote: »

not arguing the data, just pointing out the HF are right wing scum not to be trusted.

So the data is accurate, you just don't like the people who made the graph?

karma_ · 21-03-2011 07:25PM

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

So the data is accurate, you just don't like the people who made the graph?

No, I think he is saying he does not trust the data because of the dubious source.

RichieC · 21-03-2011 07:26PM

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

So the data is accurate, you just don't like the people who made the graph?

Haven't fact checked it, though you can be fairly certain their bias is evident in it somewhere.

mainly I just want to be sure readers here know what they're dealing with when think tanks with friendly sounding names like "the heritage foundation" are cited.

Chaotic_Forces · 21-03-2011 07:26PM

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

So the data is accurate, you just don't like the people who made the graph?

No, we just don't trust them and the data, while accurate was misused and the data was just used as a "base" so the right-wing scum edited it and now we have that right-wing scum stats that were in the links. :rolleyes:

Overheal · 21-03-2011 07:27PM

karma_ wrote: »

No, I think he is saying he does not trust the data because of the dubious source.

No he clearly said he isn't arguing with the data, see?

not arguing the data,

He said that.

jackiebaron · 21-03-2011 07:28PM

robinph wrote: »

Yet this...

...suggests that it is only the US that ever does such things.

Oh, so now it's ok to commit war crimes and genocide because others do it?? Other armies have committed despicable acts of brutality but they don't swan around claiming to be defenders of the weak and vulnerable. They don't brag about bringing the light of freedom, comfort and safety to their victims and they don't piss and moan about how they shouldn't be scorned for their barbarism as they "were only trying to help people and only following orders" like the US soldiers.

US soldiers claim to be all about honour and sh!t yet everday they shirk their duty of refusing to follow orders that are illegal. They participate in illegal wars of aggression which, according to the Nuremberg Charter and the Geneva Convention amount to the ultimate crime against humanity.

The real heroes are those who cut lonely figures as they stand alone in the face of adversity, ridicule, psychological torture and stigmatization for refusing to follow illegal orders. People like Ehren Watada, Kevin Benderman, Bradley Manning and many others. Though most of them have had their lives ruined by a sick and sadistic culture of petty revenge that exists in the US military hierarchy, they can go to their graves as men of steel honour with integrity intact. All the others will always be burdened by the growing weight of their own silence and complicity, constantly wrapping themselves in their rationalisations

Chaotic_Forces · 21-03-2011 07:29PM

Overheal wrote: »

No he clearly said he isn't arguing with the data, see?

He said that.

Actually ignoring my last sarcastic post... WTF is his point? He just said they aren't to be trusted but he isn't arguing with the data?

Chaotic_Forces · 21-03-2011 07:30PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

Oh, so now it's ok to commit war crimes and genocide because others do it?? Other armies have committed despicable acts of brutality but they don't swan around claiming to be defenders of the weak and vulnerable. They don't brag about bringing the light of freedom, comfort and safety to their victims and they don't piss and moan about how they shouldn't be scorned for their barbarism as they "were only trying to help people and only following orders" like the US soldiers.

US soldiers claim to be all about honour and sh!t yet everday they shirk their duty of refusing to follow orders that are illegal. They participate in illegal wars of aggression which, according to the Nuremberg Charter and the Geneva Convention amount to the ultimate crime against humanity.

The real heroes are those who cut lonely figures as they stand alone in the face of adversity, ridicule, psychological torture and stigmatization for refusing to follow illegal orders. People like Ehren Watada, Kevin Benderman, Bradley Manning and many others. Though most of them have had their lives ruined by a sick and sadistic culture of petty revenge that exists in the US military hierarchy, they can go to their graves as men of steel honour with integrity intact. All the others will always be burdened by the growing weight of their own silence and complicity, constantly wrapping themselves in their rationalisations

Nobody said war crimes are okay. The point is while yes, there are some psychopaths, it doesn't mean the entire army is like that.

davetherave · 21-03-2011 07:31PM

whiteonion wrote: »

I would not associate with people in the military. I know what those people are like. They are the same all over the world. Violent sadists.

I'm a violent sadist??? Awesome :rolleyes:

whiteonion wrote: »

The ones who end up there full time are too stupid to get a proper education and generally unemployable anywhere in the private sector.

Yeah because you come across as really educated mate.... What do you do for a living??

Raging_Ninja · 21-03-2011 07:32PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

The real heroes are those who cut lonely figures as they stand alone in the face of adversity, ridicule, psychological torture and stigmatization for refusing to follow illegal orders. People like Ehren Watada, Kevin Benderman, Bradley Manning and many others. Though most of them have had their lives ruined by a sick and sadistic culture of petty revenge that exists in the US military hierarchy, they can go to their graves as men of steel honour with integrity intact. All the others will always be burdened by the growing weight of their own silence and complicity, constantly wrapping themselves in their rationalisations

Bradley Manning is not a 'hero'. He is a thug who assaulted fellow soldiers, and because he was punished (demoted from Specialist to PFC) he decided to 'get his own back' by sending classified documents to wikileaks, including the names, addresses and GPS coordinates of Afghan civilians who helped ISAF.

Nodin · 21-03-2011 07:33PM

whiteonion wrote: »

Let's wait a few years until all the evidence gets out.

....but you've already stated

Killing and terrorizing civilians was a normal part of the military campaign in Vietnam. It was called the Phoneix program. Looks like they have another Phoenix program in Afghanistan as well.

...and not presented a shred of evidence to back it up.

whiteonion wrote: »

The fact that they tried to cover it up suggests that it was sanctioned. Why would they otherwise try to cover it up?

....who is "they"? From your article

The US military has strived to keep the pictures out of the public domain fearing it could inflame feelings at a time when anti-Americanism in Afghanistan is already running high.

..theres no reference to any coverup save a reluctance to release the pictures. Theres no mention of dubious orders from higher up, pressure to limit the scope of the trial...nothing.

jackiebaron wrote:

I think it's widely acknowledged that the Phoenix Program was sanction from the top.

Thats not what I'm contesting. Its whether this incident in Afghanistan is.

RichieC · 21-03-2011 07:33PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Actually ignoring my last sarcastic post... WTF is his point? He just said they aren't to be trusted but he isn't arguing with the data?

RichieC wrote: »

Haven't fact checked it, though you can be fairly certain their bias is evident in it somewhere.

mainly I just want to be sure readers here know what they're dealing with when think tanks with friendly sounding names like "the heritage foundation" are cited.

my point is, find better sources. if I used graphs drawn up by Noam Chomsky I would rightly expect to be hammered on it.

Chaotic_Forces · 21-03-2011 07:34PM

RichieC wrote: »

my point is, find better sources. if I used graphs drawn up by Noam Chomsky I would rightly expect to be hammered on it.

I thought they were well pictured graphs. I didn't have graphs as nice as that in school and I was never docked marks.

Overheal · 21-03-2011 07:38PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

Oh, so now it's ok to commit war crimes and genocide because others do it

...

First off: Genocide? Where?

Secondly robinph was not at all trying to justify war crimes: he was making the point that the US military is not the only organization with morally absent people in it's ranks. That doesn't mean these organizations look to train sadists. Real sadists, like their biblical counterpart, are perfectly able to fool people into getting where they want. I do truly imagine there are good few people who would be attracted to military equipment and training to get placed in a battlefield where they can essentially become animals. But it is not something which is unique to the United States.

Overheal · 21-03-2011 07:41PM

RichieC wrote: »

my point is, find better sources. if I used graphs drawn up by Noam Chomsky I would rightly expect to be hammered on it.

Bullsh*t dude. You want to make the point, so make the point: find your own better source.

jackiebaron · 21-03-2011 07:42PM

Nodin wrote: »

...I doubt its representative. Its certainly not authorised, as the suddenly departed OP has tried to claim.

Let me lay your doubts to rest. You've seen the video of the Apache gunning down those men and photographers in Baghdad, then opening fire on a van with children in it who came to help them, then remorselessly quipping "that's what you get for bringing your kids to a battle" (wtf!). One of the soldiers who was first on the scene of that carnage stated that it wasn't an isolated incident but a daily occurrence.

Also company commanders order their men to lay down 360 degree fire if they are engaged....basically mow down any man, woman or child if they are shot at or if a roadside bomb goes off.

Not representative? Not authorised? Don't make me laugh.

Chaotic_Forces · 21-03-2011 07:42PM

Overheal wrote: »

Bullsh*t dude. You want to make the point, so make the point: find your own better source.

I thought he was upset at the quality of the graphs since he wasn't arguing against the date. :rolleyes:

Corsendonk · 21-03-2011 07:42PM

whiteonion wrote: »

You can't expect anything else from the savages that make up the US army.

My mother remembers two of the lads from her home town coming home from Africa were they worked as merceneries in the 60s and showing off their ear collections.

karma_ · 21-03-2011 07:45PM

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Bradley Manning is not a 'hero'. He is a thug who assaulted fellow soldiers, and because he was punished (demoted from Specialist to PFC) he decided to 'get his own back' by sending classified documents to wikileaks, including the names, addresses and GPS coordinates of Afghan civilians who helped ISAF.

He is a hero to a lot of folk, your're just standing on the wrong side of the line in the sand to see that.

RichieC · 21-03-2011 07:45PM

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I thought he was upset at the quality of the graphs since he wasn't arguing against the date. :rolleyes:

Only the top of the range propaganda from such a well funded thinktank.

Chaotic_Forces · 21-03-2011 07:45PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

Let me lay your doubts to rest. You've seen the video of the Apache gunning down those men and photographers in Baghdad, then opening fire on a van with children in it who came to help them, then remorselessly quipping "that's what you get for bringing your kids to a battle" (wtf!). One of the soldiers who was first on the scene of that carnage stated that it wasn't an isolated incident but a daily occurrence.

Also company commanders order their men to lay down 360 degree fire if they are engaged....basically mow down any man, woman or child if they are shot at or if a roadside bomb goes off.

Not representative? Not authorised? Don't make me laugh.

Fun fact 1: they aren't being monitered 24/7.
Fun fact 2: even they are, it isn't by anyone other than their commander there, not the actual government.
Fun fact 3: even if the commander is an animal, the soldiers he commands are animals, I sincerly doubt the Government would allow it.

But hey, I bet you think the government secretly controls our thoughts too.

Chaotic_Forces · 21-03-2011 07:46PM

RichieC wrote: »

Only the top of the range propaganda from such a well funded thinktank.

Prove to me it is propaganda with facts and not your opinions.
Till then all you have is an opinion.

Overheal · 21-03-2011 07:49PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

Let me lay your doubts to rest. You've seen the video of the Apache gunning down those men and photographers in Baghdad, then opening fire on a van with children in it who came to help them, then remorselessly quipping "that's what you get for bringing your kids to a battle" (wtf!). One of the soldiers who was first on the scene of that carnage stated that it wasn't an isolated incident but a daily occurrence.

that thread is still available if you want to review the discussion. It's quite lengthy. In general though it's easy to see from the video how the journalist equipment/tripods can easily be mistaken for RPGs. From the guns camera some of their actions on the ground also appear fairly suspicious. Not an excuse for the pilots or a justification but one can at least understand where the confusion may have arisen from. Also I dont remember seeing the children in the video, at least no up to the point where the apache opened fire on the van. Again though I should remind you that incident is highly debatable and high controversial: I suggest you bump the old thread before dragging this one far off topic if you want to discuss that at lengths.

Also company commanders order their men to lay down 360 degree fire if they are engaged....basically mow down any man, woman or child if they are shot at or if a roadside bomb goes off.

For one, I think you misunderstand the term 360 degree fire. And for another I'd ask you where you are getting this claim from?

jackiebaron · 21-03-2011 07:50PM

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

They didn't try to cover it up. The men are on trial and will likely face execution. They US military just didn't want the pictures to be published because it could cause more violence.

They won't face execution. Don't be ridiculous. Those pigs who raped that little 14 year old Iraqi girl and then murdered her and her parents, siblings and grandparents and then torched her and their bodies got what amounted to a slap on the wrist. What did the perpetrators of the Haditha Massacre get? Fück All!

Face execution! My arse! They'll be given medals.

US Army kill team in Afghanistan

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