Screen Students for Grants ... wasters don't get a penny!

Fukuyama · 21-03-2011 07:03PM #1

I'll start by saying I'm a student and fully support the fees initiative as it opens education to those who otherwise would have a hard time getting the same level of it - including myself.

Which is why it pisses me off to see around half my course not coming in, planning on failing and repeating, not trying and only going to college because their parents are making them. Fees including maintainance grant can cost up to €8,000 per year per student!

Would you agree that applicants who get grants should be screened to show they're a worthwhile investment for the government - or at the very least made to achieve minimum grade levels, have minimum attendance etc...

We could save millions by cutting loose those who do feck all - not to mention free up spaces in courses for those who actually want to try... :mad:

phasers · 21-03-2011 07:05PM

People who repeat don't get grants, why would anyone repeat on purpose?

PeakOutput · 21-03-2011 07:07PM

nevermind repeating, I dont think anyone who averages less then b's should get grants

/flame retardant on

tricks · 21-03-2011 07:07PM

phasers wrote: »

People who repeat don't get grants, why would anyone repeat on purpose?

I think he meant just repeating the exams during the summer as opposed to repeating the year.

Seaneh · 21-03-2011 07:08PM

when I studied professional cookery we would be docked money from our training grants for any time missed. If you missed a lecture, you lost a days pay. If you missed 2 days you got nothing that week.
Should bring the same for all students.

tricks · 21-03-2011 07:09PM

Seaneh wrote: »

when I studied professional cookery we would be docked money from our training grants for any time missed. If you missed a lecture, you lost a days pay. If you missed 2 days you got nothing that week.
Should bring the same for all students.

Except all students don't get grants?

Saila · 21-03-2011 07:10PM

isnt that favourtism and discrimunation Im appaled:mad:

Fukuyama · 21-03-2011 07:14PM

Saila wrote: »

isnt that favourtism and discrimunation Im appaled:mad:

I'd see it as investing in people who are likely to work and give the nation a return + profit on their investment via taxes: both present and future.

What's the point in spending €8,000 of the country's money to send someone to college who isn't going to try...

Buceph · 21-03-2011 07:17PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

nevermind repeating, I dont think anyone who averages less then b's should get grants

/flame retardant on

Universities, afaik, don't use that form of grading. A "B" is what, anything from 70% to 84%. Anything above 70% is the highest grade you can get in most Irish universities. And what about subjects that start off broad and focus as you advance. I was crap at maths and statistics in my first two years, but after that I got to specialise in what I wanted to do and was good at. I was still good enough to pass those subjects, just not excel at them. And it didn't effect my final degree one bit. Why should someone in the same position be screwed because of that?

Dean0088 wrote: »

Would you agree that applicants who get grants should be screened to show they're a worthwhile investment for the government - or at the very least made to achieve minimum grade levels, have minimum attendance etc...

They are screened, by the university.

And they do have to achieve minimum grade levels.

tricks · 21-03-2011 07:18PM

Buceph wrote: »

They are screened, by the university.

And they do have to achieve minimum grade levels.

No they don't. They just have to pass. Plenty of my classmates are scraping by on low GPA's and still getting their grants and assistance funds

Jagle · 21-03-2011 07:19PM

lets be honest most people who needs grants dont get them, those who actually are eligble are for the most part wasters anyway, terrible system, very few people ive known on grants are what you would consider model students, but shure thats the system

Fukuyama · 21-03-2011 07:21PM

Buceph wrote: »

Universities, afaik, don't use that form of grading.

They are screened, by the university.

And they do have to achieve minimum grade levels.

I was never screened by the university I attend. Also, anyone can get 200 points in their Leaving and get into a course... I'm not saying people who get 200 points don't try and aren't worthwhile - I'm just saying getting into college doesn't require Einstein levels of intelligence.

As far as minimum grades go - many use the 'bring up' system to turn failed subjects into passes, barely pass or spend a year dossing with a view of 'sure feck it I'll just pay the few hundred to sit repeats' (again brings into question whether or not they need a grant if they're so lax about paying hundreds to sit repeats...

Buceph · 21-03-2011 07:21PM

tricks wrote: »

No they don't. They just have to pass. Plenty of my classmates are scraping by on low GPA's and still getting their grants and assistance funds

Yes. That is the minimum grade they have to achieve to get the grant in the following year. If they don't get that grade they don't pass. That's what minimum grade are.

And out of curiousity, what university uses the GPA system?

phasers · 21-03-2011 07:22PM

Seaneh wrote: »

when I studied professional cookery we would be docked money from our training grants for any time missed. If you missed a lecture, you lost a days pay. If you missed 2 days you got nothing that week.
Should bring the same for all students.

What if you have flu or something? Do you have to get a doctor's note or do you just not get any money?

Oh also, technically grants requite you to have 75% attendance (should be higher) , but most colleges don't take attendance so it's impossible to police.

Fukuyama · 21-03-2011 07:23PM

Jagle wrote: »

lets be honest most people who needs grants dont get them, those who actually are eligble are for the most part wasters anyway, terrible system, very few people ive known on grants are what you would consider model students, but shure thats the system

I'd disagree with that. I think Ireland has probably the fairest and most open fees system in Europe and much of the Western world.

The majority of people who get grants aren't wasters. Just enough are to constitute screening to save money, IMO.

Buceph · 21-03-2011 07:25PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

I was never screened by the university I attend. Also, anyone can get 200 points in their Leaving and get into a course... I'm not saying people who get 200 points don't try and aren't worthwhile - I'm just saying getting into college doesn't require Einstein levels of intelligence.

That is a screening system. It's deemed if you matriculate and get the points you're good enough to do the course. What other entry requirement would you have? Especially as I know someone who got average leaving cert results and finished first in his class of hundreds every year. The leaving cert can only do so much when the university experience is so different.

As far as minimum grades go - many use the 'bring up' system to turn failed subjects into passes, barely pass or spend a year dossing with a view of 'sure feck it I'll just pay the few hundred to sit repeats' (again brings into question whether or not they need a grant if they're so lax about paying hundreds to sit repeats...

Yes. The universities thought that although someone may be bad in one area, they are good enough to compensate in another. And there's nothing wrong with that. And moreso, you can't get 0 in an exam an bring that up. There are limits on how badly you can do and compensate from other subjects.

Saila · 21-03-2011 07:25PM

Buceph wrote: »

And out of curiousity, what university uses the GPA system?

UCD

Fukuyama · 21-03-2011 07:26PM

phasers wrote: »

What if you have flu or something? Do you have to get a doctor's note or do you just not get any money?

Oh also, technically grants requite you to have 75% attendance (should be higher) , but most colleges don't take attendance so it's impossible to police.

My college anyway has procedure for dealing with things like misses assignments, exams and absences for things like family deaths, illness, emergencies etc... If you're genuinely absent, and not just having a lie-on, then you should be fine.

Can't vouch for that posters course though - it seems more like an apprenticship or something...

Buceph · 21-03-2011 07:26PM

Saila wrote: »

UCD

Do you still end up with first class honours, or 2:1's and 2:2's?

AckwelFoley · 21-03-2011 07:26PM

i think we should by default kill all students.

Then on a case by case basis decide if they should be spared, then following that process decide if the successful ones should get a grant, of course on case by case

You will find when you weed out the wasters that there will be an average of 3 students nationally each year getting free fees

Jagle · 21-03-2011 07:30PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

I'd disagree with that. I think Ireland has probably the fairest and most open fees system in Europe and much of the Western world.

The majority of people who get grants aren't wasters. Just enough are to constitute screening to save money, IMO.

you tried going to a university in the last few years, the government says your parents earn too much sorry pay for it yourself, im not my parents
ya very fair. and most if not all colleges use a GPA system, QCA its called

Fukuyama · 21-03-2011 07:30PM

Buceph wrote: »

That is a screening system. It's deemed if you matriculate and get the points you're good enough to do the course. What other entry requirement would you have? Especially as I know someone who got average leaving cert results and finished first in his class of hundreds every year. The leaving cert can only do so much when the university experience is so different.

Yes. The universities thought that although someone may be bad in one area, they are good enough to compensate in another. And there's nothing wrong with that. And moreso, you can't get 0 in an exam an bring that up. There are limits on how badly you can do and compensate from other subjects.

I'm more concerned with the attitudes of students. We average 50% attendance in lectures which is crap.

I agree - the leaving cert is not, and should not be considered a measure of ones intelligence. Anyone can learn off an Irish essay by heart if they're bothered...

My point is that I would have a screen process and a computerized continuous evaluation system. A quick interview with the candidate and explain how they'll be monitored etc... If they're not attending, grades are ****e and lecturer's can't vouch for them then they shouldn't be entitled to €8,000 or so of tax payer money.

The country is on the verge of flopping - the last thing we need is dead weight soaking up more public money right now...

Jagle · 21-03-2011 07:31PM

Buceph wrote: »

And out of curiousity, what university uses the GPA system?

most if not all, also known as QCA

Fukuyama · 21-03-2011 07:32PM

Jagle wrote: »

you tried going to a university in the last few years, the government says your parents earn too much sorry pay for it yourself, im not my parents
ya very fair. and most if not all colleges use a GPA system, QCA its called

I'l agree with the whole parents thing. That pisses me off. When you're 18 you should be considered 100% separate from your parents...

Buceph · 21-03-2011 07:36PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

I'm more concerned with the attitudes of students. We average 50% attendance in lectures which is crap.

I agree - the leaving cert is not, and should not be considered a measure of ones intelligence. Anyone can learn off an Irish essay by heart if they're bothered...

My point is that I would have a screen process and a computerized continuous evaluation system. A quick interview with the candidate and explain how they'll be monitored etc... If they're not attending, grades are ****e and lecturer's can't vouch for them then they shouldn't be entitled to €8,000 or so of tax payer money.

The country is on the verge of flopping - the last thing we need is dead weight soaking up more public money right now...

That's not what universities are about. People learn in their own way, and universities are very particular about that. The more technical courses do have minimum attendance requirements, but when you go to the humanities lectures barely matter, especially when you have 9 hours of lectures a week. It's all about time hitting the books, or reading journals. I know plenty of people who came out with excellent degrees with extremely poor attendance. And university's know that as well.

Jagle wrote: »

most if not all, also known as QCA

Definitely not all. It wasn't used for my exams/results.

Edit: A quick google shows Mary I and UL use it.

PeakOutput · 21-03-2011 07:39PM

Buceph wrote: »

Universities, afaik, don't use that form of grading. A "B" is what, anything from 70% to 84%. Anything above 70% is the highest grade you can get in most Irish universities.

of course they do, in my university for example

A1 First Honours - 4.00 75+%
A2 First Honours - 3.60 70-74%
B1 Honours 2.1 - 3.20 65-69%
B2 Honours 2.1 - 3.00 60-64%
B3 Honours 2.2 - 2.80 55-59%
C1 Honours 2.2 - 2.60 50-54%
C2 Third Honours - 2.40 45-49%
C3 Third Honours - 2.00 40-44%
D1 Compensating Fail - 1.60 35-39%
D2 Compensating Fail - 1.20 30-34%
F Fail 0.00 Less than 30% No credit awarded
NG No Grade 0.00 No credit awarded

you can get d's in two modules a semester and still not have to repeat as long as your overall average is above two. potentially this means you could fail 16 modules over the course of your degree and still be awarded a degree.

i dont believe that is acceptable if the goverment is paying for your degree. I think you should at least have to be on course to receive a 2.2

Buceph · 21-03-2011 07:46PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

i dont believe that is acceptable if the goverment is paying for your degree. I think you should at least have to be on course to receive a 2.2

I think if the universities and/or the NUI deem you good enough to accredit you, the government should fund you.

tricks · 21-03-2011 07:49PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

I'l agree with the whole parents thing. That pisses me off. When you're 18 you should be considered 100% separate from your parents...

Yeah I get nothing from the government because my parents earn above the accepted limit for grant qualification. Now I'm very grateful I live at home and they do pay my fee's but I spend most of the week in college, the library or studying so can't get a job. Basically I am poorer than my grant receiving classmates who also are too lazy to attend college and spend most of their time working because they have absolutely no interest in their degree or pursuing a career in the same field.

dillo2k10 · 21-03-2011 07:50PM

I agree with the screening process. I hope to get a grant going to uni next year. I even think that the grants should be based on your leaving cert attendance for incoming first year students. I'm sure there would be much less wasters going to Uni and then I think there would be a much lower drop out rate and so the correct people are going to get a place in Uni

PeakOutput · 21-03-2011 07:51PM

Buceph wrote: »

I think if the universities and/or the NUI deem you good enough to accredit you, the government should fund you.

The more students a university has and the longer each student stays in the university the more money the university will receive. They have an incentive to NOT fail you.

Buceph · 21-03-2011 07:52PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

The more students a university has and the longer each student stays in the university the more money the university will receive. They have an incentive to NOT fail you.

The more idiots who pass the lower their international prestige so less research money. They have incentive to maintain their standards.

Screen Students for Grants ... wasters don't get a penny!

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