Why exactly do people want a united Ireland?

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Unionists have always feared a Dublin government for various reasons. A devolved government would give them some power, a compromise to calm these fears. As well as that Unionist TDs would have a much larger say in Irelands policies and lawmaking than they will ever have on Britains.

You object to the use of the word "fenian"?

I dont want to "support" another government in Belfast to be honest and I think you'll find that may Irish would be in the same boat.
I have no objections to the term.

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

If the Republic doesn't gain any extra resources by uniting with the North than I really don't see the point. If there is, then I might be interested.

The people who really want a united Ireland, in my opinion, are people who are brainwashed by nationalism.

In the end, a state should be there to help the people and ensure everything works efficiently and at the minute I could only see a united Ireland causing more hassle.

I agree with all your points, and add that the regular Unionist / protestant community must have a similarly pragmatic viewpoint.
In any event if we got some resources they would have to be willingly shared by the people of northern ireland who would need to agree to share that with us in joining with the republic. As I don't think they (or us?) have any magic resources then I think we only talk about a political task. And what is there to talk about? We change a load of people's addresses - and then? How do we all gain?
Right now we still are very immature towars politics and how to relate to each other (I mean people in the republic not the sectarian divide) and how to build a rewarding society..... I really think if we can't do it for the republic how will we manage it in 32 counties? we will suddenly have a higher social IQ? The unmitigated disaster that "we" brought on the republic still seems to have very few fathers or mothers, no jail time for corruption etc. OK FF got slaughtered, but there is still a ot of support for them - they haven't gone away you know.
Until we are capable of building an intelligent and just society I wouldn't even mutter making our problems bigger. NI unemployment and compo culture, state employment, sectarian problems yeah it's hardly a prize either. The republic and the north getting together are like the 2 ugliest people in some hick town settling for each other, I wouldn't pop any champagne corks, it would be a difficult marriage. And ultimately we are back to "why bother with all the trouble?"

The funny thing is, as someone pointed out earlier , we never really had a UI. Our history is far far more complex than the Brits moving in on the Irish and holding onto the North. We were fighting each other , we had problems with norwegian invasions there were other land divides, we played host to part of the English civil war, and we even got ourselves partially caught up in European wars.

The truth is, if you were to try to go back in time and find out when Ireland was "ours",i.e. an island fully owned ,unified, and inhabited by Irish people you would probably have to go back to the 500s/600s and even then I doubt we were unified in the way the republic is now .

Now all that said there is still a sense that our island is being occupied and thats where the problem lies I guess. A united Ireland was something desired by the people who fought in the war of independence.
A united Ireland was the direction we were heading in and its still something that I believe will happen eventually (not in my lifetime), I also believe when it does happen it will be for purely economical reasons and the desire will be shared by far more than just over 50% of the people in the North.

I know this isnt the best of analogies by any means , but supposed the British offered some sort of deal with Ireland, for them to occupy Galway (for example). Suppose our Government said , fine but its going to be put to a vote by Galway residents first. Now just say they voted Yes and showed they wanted to be a part of Britain, would this bother you? Would you feel part of your country was occupied?(People from Galway need not answer )

At present, 81% of the NI economy is composed of the state sector.
This is higher than the communist countries in the Soviet Union.

The only way they can really acquire private sector industry, is by trying to take it from us. e.g. they're trying to lower their CTR to match ours because they can't compete with us.
But taking such industry from the Republic, would also be detrimental to Britain, which is keeping a higher CTR. This would build a lot of resentment in Britain against the North.

Many of the fundamental advantages of British citizenship will be washed away in the coming years. There is talking of ending the NHS monopoly and pursuing a UHI system, similar to what Holland has, and similar to what Fine Gael are trying to implement under Fair Care.


I don't see how the situation in the North can be sustained much longer.
Wheter they stay part of the UK, become part of a country with us, or simply remain independent, their standard of life is going to start crashing in the near future.

Our debt is disastrous, but we have the ECB behind us.
Britain's debt is perilous and they have no such support.
They are printing money like crazy, Quanitive Easing, trying to inflate their way out of debt.
Even if this saves Britain, this will be disastrous for the British citizens, especially NI. They may be laughing at us now, but they won't be laughing for long. Not when their economic realities hit home.

NI is basically a social welfare state which contributes nothing to the United Kingdom. It is merely a drain. And a heavy one.
The quality of life of people in Wales, Scotland and Northern England could be significantly improved overnight if the gangrenous limb of NI were cut off (which makes you wonder why the IRA ever bothered with bombs - a leafleting campaign to alleviate British ignorance would have furthered their cause significantly - and the internal forces are still there - just as they were in 1984 during the miner's strike.)

The advent of nuclear weapons essentially made the whole reason for retaining Northern Ireland redundant. i.e. security/protect against invasion.

Britain now has to find a new way.
Many of the old advantages which NI availed of will be washed away.
That's not to say it would be any more attractive to join us, but certainly it's going to be less attractive for them to remain within the UK than it used to be.

I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if the British government decides to cut them off at some stage.

the good friday agreement states that northern ireland can never be an independent country.either has to stay with the uk or move into a soverign state with the republic.thats why its up to the majority to decide.god could you imagine them on there own.would be a disaster,

southsiderosie wrote: »

A HUGE problem here is the fact that the politicians in NI have never, until very recently, had to deal with the real problems of a modern state. They haven't cared much about national politics in terms of foreign policy (unless, as in the case of Sinn Fein, it has to do with issues of national autonomy like in Palestine and the Basque Country), and they haven't cared that much about local governance - what politicians do in 'normal' countries is basically carried out by the social sector and the (unelected) bureaucracy.

The last NI budget process was a case in point: they have never really had to manage a national budget and make tough spending decisions, and the process was absolutely torturous.

The current economic disaster in the Republic has probably set any reunification process back by at least a generation. Germany was the third biggest economy in the world in the 1990s, and they have struggled with the costs - both economic and social - of unification. Neither the Republic nor the UK can afford reunification at this point, and given that they are an economic basketcase, it is not clear to me that NI could in any way, shape or form survive being an independent statelet.

If Republicans are serious about the nationalist agenda, the best thing they could do is get serious about economics. And not just "tax the rich" economics, but long-term growth. Because while they rely on misty-eyed nationalism for a lot of their support on the ground, out in the real world, the economics of the situation are going to drive the politics - and that goes for both the politicians and the voters who will ultimately have to consent to unification.

dlofnep wrote: »

No, they do not have democracy. Nationalists have 8 seats, in a 646 house which represents unionist interests, first and foremost. They cannot influence matters pertaining to taxation, foreign policy or defense. They were forced into a situation against the will of the majority, and now have to compromise at every single corner on the smallest of issues. That is not democracy. The north's economy is largely dependent on the public sector, largely due to high corporation tax rates.

It's also about national identity. The nationalist population does not want to live under British rule. They feel that their cultural and national aspirations are not being protected. It's a quite simple concept.

So they have absolutely no say in the institution of devolved government that already exists in the North and the elections held up there to form that institution are a total waste of time and money?

dlofnep wrote: »

I have already highlighted the issues that they have no say in - taxation, foreign relations and defense. They are also veto'd at every given opportunity by the DUP with matters relating to culture, such as the proposed Irish language act which was promised by the British & Irish Governments.

So no - it's not your average working example of democracy.

So the whole thing is pointless?

bmarley wrote: »

What would be the point - they have their own monetary system, political system, culture, language etc and we have ours - so what would there to be gained for anyone. It would simple stir up too many old wounds and create more rivalry than it would be worth. Besides, it is never going to happen.

dlofnep wrote: »

It most certainly would assist FDI, but more importantly - allow for more local small to medium sized enterprises, to wean the workforce away from public sector dependency. That is the largest problem facing the north in terms of becoming a politically & economically independent entity.

The reality is - there cannot be an honest political debate around taxation, because taxation is controlled from Westminster. One of the many flaws of a centrally-controlled political union.

So if there was a united Ireland were would the taxs be decided?