Why exactly do people want a united Ireland?

effluent

People in the north and south have their own democracy now, so what is the issue? How exactly would it change our or their lives if there was a united Ireland?

KeithAFC

I don't know in all honesty. Some seem to think the island overall has some god given right to be a republic with little actual benefits of it. Not to mention getting it up the 'Prods'. :rolleyes:

Brussels Sprout

For the majority of people in the republic I think this issue has become less and less important with the passing of time. For the first 60 or so years of the state it was an issue that most people and parties had strong opinions about. In the recent election I don't think anyone even mentioned it (apart from probably SF).

donvito99

A better football team......thats all I can think of

Killer Pigeon

If the Republic doesn't gain any extra resources by uniting with the North than I really don't see the point. If there is, then I might be interested.

The people who really want a united Ireland, in my opinion, are people who are brainwashed by nationalism.

In the end, a state should be there to help the people and ensure everything works efficiently and at the minute I could only see a united Ireland causing more hassle.

xoxyx

It seems to be the principle of the thing. I'd almost love to see it happen just to watch the proponents of it work out the logistics. Almost...

mike65

donvito99 wrote: »

A better football team......thats all I can think of

Good grief! Not that long ago that thought would never have entered anyones head, Keith Gillespie was about the only one coveted for years.

Predator_

Only in Ireland would such questions be asked. Could you image any other country where another country invades, breaks it up and someone asks 'Why would you want a united (country X)'.
For any Irish Patriot this question is just dumb.

KeithAFC

Predator_ wrote: »

Only in Ireland would such questions be asked. Could you image any other country where another country invades, breaks it up and someone asks 'Why would you want a united (country X)'.
For any Irish Patriot this question is just dumb.

When was the last time the island of ireland was a republic?

sanbrafyffe

no one at the moment in interested in unity and wont be for a long time.the south has banking problems and the north is has its own by the uk itself being in economic recession.there wont be any united ireland anyhow for a long long time.you might have a catholic majority in NI within a few years maybe even quicker but nationalist population feel its not the right time for unity and they could never be so right.it will take a generation,maybe 2 or 3 before unity will happen,alot more has to be done before it happens.enda kenny isint worried as it wont happen in his life time.a lot will have to do with the scottish parliament too.if they claim independence within 20 years.they thought it could happen with in 10 but highly unlikely now with these time.let us get on with our lives and not worry about things like this,there is far bigger worries but one day i would like to see it happen and i have no doubt it will

Wolfe Tone

Why did we want independence in the first place? Same reason.

kippy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Why did we want independence in the first place? Same reason.

The point is - the North is more independent now than it ever was and getting more independence by the year. Were they to "join" up with the republic again this would be lost.
To be honest I get the impression that there are many in the North who are relatively happy with the way things are and based on what I know most citizens of Ireland appear to be ok with the way things are as well.

Wolfe Tone

kippy wrote: »

The point is - the North is more independent now than it ever was and getting more independence by the year. Were they to "join" up with the republic again this would be lost.
To be honest I get the impression that there are many in the North who are relatively happy with the way things are and based on what I know most citizens of Ireland appear to be ok with the way things are as well.

They would much more of a say if they had a government devolved from Dublin.

bmarley

What would be the point - they have their own monetary system, political system, culture, language etc and we have ours - so what would there to be gained for anyone. It would simple stir up too many old wounds and create more rivalry than it would be worth. Besides, it is never going to happen.

kippy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

They would much more of a say if they had a government devolved from Dublin.

A devolved government from Dublin? You arent being serious are you - that to me sounds like wanting the best of both/every world.
They've more power up there right now than they ever would by joing up with the 26 counties. A devolved government with the republic wouldnt fly on so many levels.

Killer Pigeon

Predator_ wrote: »

Only in Ireland would such questions be asked. Could you image any other country where another country invades, breaks it up and someone asks 'Why would you want a united (country X)'.
For any Irish Patriot this question is just dumb.

What's the point of patriotism? How does it benefit the ordinary people?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wolfe Tone

kippy wrote: »

A devolved government from Dublin? You arent being serious are you - that to me sounds like wanting the best of both/every world.
They've more power up there right now than they ever would by joing up with the 26 counties. A devolved government with the republic wouldnt fly on so many levels.

No they dont. What % MPs do they have in Westminster?


Why would it "not fly on so many levels". I think its a fair compromise.

sollar

The island would have been better off if partition had never happened. As it is a UI would be more hassle than it would be worth imo.

kippy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

No they dont. What % MPs do they have in Westminster?


Why would it "not fly on so many levels". I think its a fair compromise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Assembly

They already have a devolved government.
Why would it not fly?
Well, your either in the republic or your not. I dont see many Irish Citizens supporting two governments, two political classes etc.
Why wouldnt it fly on so many levels, mainly because of the money.

Predator_

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

What's the point of patriotism? How does it benefit the ordinary people?

Bet you if we were talking about British soldiers and how they die for their country overseas and someone mentioned patriotism you wouldnt have typed that response.

alex73

Problem is its nearly 80 years since partition, Unlike Germany and Korea who not only had partition but also a real separation, Ireland's partition does not really effect the day to day living of people on this island, there is no real boarder, people move with ease. Majority of people in north want to be part of UK, not much we can do to unit an island under the same parliament if people don't want it. I don't think we will ever see a peaceful united ireland, there simply is not the democratic mandate.

Wolfe Tone

kippy wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Assembly

They already have a devolved government.
Why would it not fly?
Well, your either in the republic or your not. I dont see many Irish Citizens supporting two governments, two political classes etc.
Why wouldnt it fly on so many levels, mainly because of the money.

The assembly has very limited power, London is still in charge, dont overlook that.

If you are interested, maybe you should look up the "Éire nua" model, I think we will end up with something like that eventually.

kippy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The assembly has very limited power, London is still in charge, dont overlook that.

If you are interested, maybe you should look up the "Éire nua" model, I think we will end up with something like that eventually.

The assembly has at least SOME power - power the six counties would not have under a full republic - which is, after all, the ideal that many are putting forward.
The North has so many positives over the south - remaining under current governance has so many more positives than negatives. Things still aren't perfect up there, don't get me wrong but there are more pros than cons from what I can see.

I honestly think enough people dont care enough for anything like this to happen.

Wolfe Tone

kippy wrote: »

The assembly has at least SOME power - power the six counties would not have under a full republic - which is, after all, the ideal that many are putting forward.
The North has so many positives over the south - remaining under current governance has so many more positives than negatives. Things still aren't perfect up there, don't get me wrong but there are more pros than cons from what I can see.

I honestly think enough people dont care enough for anything like this to happen.

The people in the 6 would have much more say on national policy in a 32 county framework than they do in the union.

kippy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

The people in the 6 would have much more say on national policy in a 32 county framework than they do in the union.

So you suggesting they want to be able to influence national policy but with a devolved 6 countie government?
So what policies do you think they would like changed to match that of the Republic?

namelessguy

KeithAFC wrote: »

When was the last time the island of ireland was a republic?

More importantly when was the island of Ireland ever unified? Wasn't it just a series of independent kingdoms prior to the English arriving. Who only came to help one fight another?

Wolfe Tone

kippy wrote: »

So you suggesting they want to be able to influence national policy but with a devolved 6 countie government?
So what policies do you think they would like changed to match that of the Republic?

Oh dear. What I am saying is that with a devolved govt unionists neednt fear the fenians as much.

kippy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Oh dear. What I am saying is that with a devolved govt unionists neednt fear the fenians as much.

Oh Dear what -I put two questions to you, neither were answered.
Unionists and "fenians"? Really?

Adrian009

Predator_ wrote: »

For any Irish Patriot this question is just dumb.

Its said that there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

Implying that only True Irish Patriots know the answer to this, and that it need no explanation, makes it fall into the latter.:D

Adrian009

sollar wrote: »

The island would have been better off if partition had never happened. As it is a UI would be more hassle than it would be worth imo.

But it DID happen. And so here we are.

For the record, Ireland was never an independent all-island state united under one form of government. The present reality reflects historical precedence.

Wolfe Tone

kippy wrote: »

Oh Dear what -I put two questions to you, neither were answered.
Unionists and "fenians"? Really?

Unionists have always feared a Dublin government for various reasons. A devolved government would give them some power, a compromise to calm these fears. As well as that Unionist TDs would have a much larger say in Irelands policies and lawmaking than they will ever have on Britains.

You object to the use of the word "fenian"?

effluent

I was asking this question as someone as a neutral on the issue. The way I see it was that a united Ireland was back in the 70's, when the unionists made an absolute dogs dinner out of the whole situation (class segregation, policing issues ect).

But that is in the past, why do people want one in this day and age? How would it effect our lives either way?

I'm happy with the way things are now tbh. I think a united Ireland would not tollerate how some, if not the majority of the people in the north identify with being british. This simply cannot be achieved in a united republic IMO.

kippy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Unionists have always feared a Dublin government for various reasons. A devolved government would give them some power, a compromise to calm these fears. As well as that Unionist TDs would have a much larger say in Irelands policies and lawmaking than they will ever have on Britains.

You object to the use of the word "fenian"?

I dont want to "support" another government in Belfast to be honest and I think you'll find that may Irish would be in the same boat.
I have no objections to the term.

KeithAFC

namelessguy wrote: »

More importantly when was the island of Ireland ever unified? Wasn't it just a series of independent kingdoms prior to the English arriving. Who only came to help one fight another?

Its just when you hear/read republicans go on about it, it is as if it happened once.

Adrian009

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its just when you hear/read republicans go on about it, it is as if it happened once.

Sadly, we were never a unified indepent all-island state.

We were well on the way to it in 1166 but internal politics brought about the Norman invasion (actually, they were mainly Welsh).

The next time Ireland came close to independence was in the 1640's, but even then we spent a great deal of time fighting each other.

Since the 1650's, an independent all-island Irish state has being IMPOSSIBLE because of the presence of large numbers of unionists in the north. And they don't want to go back to 'home' to Britain BECAUSE THEY ARE ALREADY HOME. They are in pretty much the same situation as our Old English ancestors.

So, the best we can do is see that both political entities treat their people (Irish, British, Catholic, Protestant, etc) with full civil rights. That way, everybody is much less unhappy than they otherwise would be. For further information consult the Belfast Agreement of 1998, which was supported by a majority of the island's population.

Adrian009

effluent wrote: »

I was asking this question as someone as a neutral on the issue. The way I see it was that a united Ireland was back in the 70's, when the unionists made an absolute dogs dinner out of the whole situation (class segregation, policing issues ect).

But that is in the past, why do people want one in this day and age? How would it effect our lives either way?

I'm happy with the way things are now tbh. I think a united Ireland would not tollerate how some, if not the majority of the people in the north identify with being british. This simply cannot be achieved in a united republic IMO.

Ireland may not be a united island but Ireland (the state) is a united country.

KeithAFC

Adrian009 wrote: »

Sadly, we were never a unified indepent all-island state.

We were well on the way to it in 1166 but internal politics brought about the Norman invasion (actually, they were mainly Welsh).

The next time Ireland came close to independence was in the 1640's, but even then we spent a great deal of time fighting each other.

Since the 1650's, an independent all-island Irish state has being IMPOSSIBLE because of the presence of large numbers of unionists in the north. And they don't want to go back to 'home' to Britain BECAUSE THEY ARE ALREADY HOME. They are in pretty much the same situation as our Old English ancestors.

So, the best we can do is see that both political entities treat their people (Irish, British, Catholic, Protestant, etc) with full civil rights. That way, everybody is much less unhappy than they otherwise would be. For further information consult the Belfast Agreement of 1998, which was supported by a majority of the island's population.

Thats my view. The way it should be imo. Its just some keep pushing the agenda.

KeithAFC

Adrian009 wrote: »

Ireland may not be a united island but Ireland (the state) is a united country.

Not really. Hear it a lot on here some wish the republic would join the UK again, got many orange order men in the republic too who don't believe in the republic.

Adrian009

KeithAFC wrote: »

got many orange order men in the republic too who don't believe in the republic.

Really?

Adrian009

KeithAFC wrote: »

Not really. Hear it a lot on here some wish the republic would join the UK again, got many orange order men in the republic too who don't believe in the republic.

It works among the republican faithful in the north for SF but you'll rarely hear them speck of it down here in Ireland. They really need to sort this out or else they'll fracture the party into northern and southern entities (though some argue it already is).

Tea drinker

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

If the Republic doesn't gain any extra resources by uniting with the North than I really don't see the point. If there is, then I might be interested.

The people who really want a united Ireland, in my opinion, are people who are brainwashed by nationalism.

In the end, a state should be there to help the people and ensure everything works efficiently and at the minute I could only see a united Ireland causing more hassle.

I agree with all your points, and add that the regular Unionist / protestant community must have a similarly pragmatic viewpoint.
In any event if we got some resources they would have to be willingly shared by the people of northern ireland who would need to agree to share that with us in joining with the republic. As I don't think they (or us?) have any magic resources then I think we only talk about a political task. And what is there to talk about? We change a load of people's addresses - and then? How do we all gain?
Right now we still are very immature towars politics and how to relate to each other (I mean people in the republic not the sectarian divide) and how to build a rewarding society..... I really think if we can't do it for the republic how will we manage it in 32 counties? we will suddenly have a higher social IQ? The unmitigated disaster that "we" brought on the republic still seems to have very few fathers or mothers, no jail time for corruption etc. OK FF got slaughtered, but there is still a ot of support for them - they haven't gone away you know.
Until we are capable of building an intelligent and just society I wouldn't even mutter making our problems bigger. NI unemployment and compo culture, state employment, sectarian problems yeah it's hardly a prize either. The republic and the north getting together are like the 2 ugliest people in some hick town settling for each other, I wouldn't pop any champagne corks, it would be a difficult marriage. And ultimately we are back to "why bother with all the trouble?"

Adrian009

Tea drinker wrote: »

And ultimately we are back to "why bother with all the trouble?"

The problem with it is that its more of an emotive issue people support reflexively, because that's the tradition they were raised in.

If you try and suggest in some quarters that a UI is a terrible idea, you are dismissed as a west brit or some such, rather a thoughtful response.

Its an idea that has outlived its time, and has been used to justify too many atrocities for most Irish people to actively support it.

zig

The funny thing is, as someone pointed out earlier , we never really had a UI. Our history is far far more complex than the Brits moving in on the Irish and holding onto the North. We were fighting each other , we had problems with norwegian invasions there were other land divides, we played host to part of the English civil war, and we even got ourselves partially caught up in European wars.

The truth is, if you were to try to go back in time and find out when Ireland was "ours",i.e. an island fully owned ,unified, and inhabited by Irish people you would probably have to go back to the 500s/600s and even then I doubt we were unified in the way the republic is now .

Now all that said there is still a sense that our island is being occupied and thats where the problem lies I guess. A united Ireland was something desired by the people who fought in the war of independence.
A united Ireland was the direction we were heading in and its still something that I believe will happen eventually (not in my lifetime), I also believe when it does happen it will be for purely economical reasons and the desire will be shared by far more than just over 50% of the people in the North.

I know this isnt the best of analogies by any means , but supposed the British offered some sort of deal with Ireland, for them to occupy Galway (for example). Suppose our Government said , fine but its going to be put to a vote by Galway residents first. Now just say they voted Yes and showed they wanted to be a part of Britain, would this bother you? Would you feel part of your country was occupied?(People from Galway need not answer )

Adrian009

zig wrote: »

The truth is, if you were to try to go back in time and find out when Ireland was "ours",i.e. an island fully owned ,unified, and inhabited by Irish people you would probably have to go back to the 500s/600s and even then I doubt we were unified in the way the republic is now .

Actually it was even worse then, with the island been divided up into dozens of different kingdoms, none of whom ruled supremely. We were like the early English and Greeks, broadly united in culture but politically divided.

The closest we came to all-island independent polity was in the 12th and 17th century.

It never fails to amaze me how little people know of those two crucial eras in Irish history.

Dannyboy83

At present, 81% of the NI economy is composed of the state sector.
This is higher than the communist countries in the Soviet Union.

The only way they can really acquire private sector industry, is by trying to take it from us. e.g. they're trying to lower their CTR to match ours because they can't compete with us.
But taking such industry from the Republic, would also be detrimental to Britain, which is keeping a higher CTR. This would build a lot of resentment in Britain against the North.

Many of the fundamental advantages of British citizenship will be washed away in the coming years. There is talking of ending the NHS monopoly and pursuing a UHI system, similar to what Holland has, and similar to what Fine Gael are trying to implement under Fair Care.


I don't see how the situation in the North can be sustained much longer.
Wheter they stay part of the UK, become part of a country with us, or simply remain independent, their standard of life is going to start crashing in the near future.

Our debt is disastrous, but we have the ECB behind us.
Britain's debt is perilous and they have no such support.
They are printing money like crazy, Quanitive Easing, trying to inflate their way out of debt.
Even if this saves Britain, this will be disastrous for the British citizens, especially NI. They may be laughing at us now, but they won't be laughing for long. Not when their economic realities hit home.

NI is basically a social welfare state which contributes nothing to the United Kingdom. It is merely a drain. And a heavy one.
The quality of life of people in Wales, Scotland and Northern England could be significantly improved overnight if the gangrenous limb of NI were cut off (which makes you wonder why the IRA ever bothered with bombs - a leafleting campaign to alleviate British ignorance would have furthered their cause significantly - and the internal forces are still there - just as they were in 1984 during the miner's strike.)

The advent of nuclear weapons essentially made the whole reason for retaining Northern Ireland redundant. i.e. security/protect against invasion.

Britain now has to find a new way.
Many of the old advantages which NI availed of will be washed away.
That's not to say it would be any more attractive to join us, but certainly it's going to be less attractive for them to remain within the UK than it used to be.

I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if the British government decides to cut them off at some stage.

cyclopath2001

effluent wrote: »

But that is in the past, why do people want one in this day and age? How would it effect our lives either .

Same reason as they want Irish to become the common Tongue of Ireland once more?

Adrian009

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Same reason as they want Irish to become the common Tongue of Ireland once more?

But just because some people want something does not mean its a good idea, or even feasible.

southsiderosie

A HUGE problem here is the fact that the politicians in NI have never, until very recently, had to deal with the real problems of a modern state. They haven't cared much about national politics in terms of foreign policy (unless, as in the case of Sinn Fein, it has to do with issues of national autonomy like in Palestine and the Basque Country), and they haven't cared that much about local governance - what politicians do in 'normal' countries is basically carried out by the social sector and the (unelected) bureaucracy.

The last NI budget process was a case in point: they have never really had to manage a national budget and make tough spending decisions, and the process was absolutely torturous.

The current economic disaster in the Republic has probably set any reunification process back by at least a generation. Germany was the third biggest economy in the world in the 1990s, and they have struggled with the costs - both economic and social - of unification. Neither the Republic nor the UK can afford reunification at this point, and given that they are an economic basketcase, it is not clear to me that NI could in any way, shape or form survive being an independent statelet.

If Republicans are serious about the nationalist agenda, the best thing they could do is get serious about economics. And not just "tax the rich" economics, but long-term growth. Because while they rely on misty-eyed nationalism for a lot of their support on the ground, out in the real world, the economics of the situation are going to drive the politics - and that goes for both the politicians and the voters who will ultimately have to consent to unification.

sanbrafyffe

the good friday agreement states that northern ireland can never be an independent country.either has to stay with the uk or move into a soverign state with the republic.thats why its up to the majority to decide.god could you imagine them on there own.would be a disaster,

southsiderosie wrote: »

A HUGE problem here is the fact that the politicians in NI have never, until very recently, had to deal with the real problems of a modern state. They haven't cared much about national politics in terms of foreign policy (unless, as in the case of Sinn Fein, it has to do with issues of national autonomy like in Palestine and the Basque Country), and they haven't cared that much about local governance - what politicians do in 'normal' countries is basically carried out by the social sector and the (unelected) bureaucracy.

The last NI budget process was a case in point: they have never really had to manage a national budget and make tough spending decisions, and the process was absolutely torturous.

The current economic disaster in the Republic has probably set any reunification process back by at least a generation. Germany was the third biggest economy in the world in the 1990s, and they have struggled with the costs - both economic and social - of unification. Neither the Republic nor the UK can afford reunification at this point, and given that they are an economic basketcase, it is not clear to me that NI could in any way, shape or form survive being an independent statelet.

If Republicans are serious about the nationalist agenda, the best thing they could do is get serious about economics. And not just "tax the rich" economics, but long-term growth. Because while they rely on misty-eyed nationalism for a lot of their support on the ground, out in the real world, the economics of the situation are going to drive the politics - and that goes for both the politicians and the voters who will ultimately have to consent to unification.

Killer Pigeon

Predator_ wrote: »

Bet you if we were talking about British soldiers and how they die for their country overseas and someone mentioned patriotism you wouldnt have typed that response.

I bet many soldiers don't go and fight because they are patriotic but because they need the money to feed their families. The only people who would have some deluded sense of patriotism are the armchair generals.