Heroism in a nuclear threat

dolphin city · 15-03-2011 12:43PM

vibe666 wrote: »

yes, quite easily. more FUD from the mainstream press, which is exactly my point. :rolleyes:

the reason it sounds like a bit more than you would get from an x-ray is because that's the impression they are trying to give, just to sell stories, rather than reporting on the facts.

did anyone reporting on these 'stories' actually say how much exposure constitutes 'high' or 'elevated' in their opinion or what they consider to be 'full-on radiation sickness'? having a full CT scan would be considered a 'high' dose compared to an arm x-ray, but that doesn't make it particularly unsafe to have one.

there was a brief localised radiation spike for a few minutes this morning and there is a minor leak that they are still trying to plug, in addition to the controlled venting but it was just that, 'minor'. the only real danger to the people of Fukushima from the power station will be due to the lack of power due to it's absence, not from a meltdown.

even if it did meltdown, the biggest issue is going to be the cost of the cleanup, not from radiation exposure.
how so exactly? I'm not backing down at all and i don't see any reason why i should so far, as there isn't anyone here offering anything except misinformed opinion based solely on unsubstantiated scaremongering from the mainstream media that i am trying to steer the 'sheeple' away from, rather than any fact based contributions.

put down your copy of The Sun and try reading a few factual science based news sites and forums and then come back with a proper argument if you're going to try and argue a particular point, rather than just point and laugh without contributing anything.

you're more than welcome to think that i'm wrong, but if you want to contribute then show me why you think i'm wrong instead of just pointing the finger and that way if i am wrong then I'll be happy to back down and accept your superior googling skills and we'll all be better off as a whole for it.

does everyone that disagrees with you read the Sun - or is that just something that you like to spit out to make yourself feel better? Or if someone doesn't agree you say they are "pointing and laughing" very mature I must say.

I know I am more than welcome to think you are wrong - I do think so. And I'd say you will be backing down a lot more over the coming days. We can all google - including yourself pet.

Captain_Generic · 15-03-2011 12:56PM

I think this quote from an MIT Nuclear Engineer's article pretty much sums everything up nicely:

Events in Japan confirm the robustness of modern nuclear technology — not a failure

Rest of the article here: http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N13/yost.html

vibe666 · 15-03-2011 01:10PM

dolphin city wrote: »

does everyone that disagrees with you read the Sun - or is that just something that you like to spit out to make yourself feel better? Or if someone doesn't agree you say they are "pointing and laughing" very mature I must say.

the Sun is just one example of the vast majority of newspapers and websites reporting a sensationalist and inaccurate account of what is actually happening, so i don't see any problem lumping together anyone who is willing to take their word for it without checking out the facts for themselves who would rather just regurgitate the same misinformation assuming it as fact because the SUN, NYT, CNN or whoever says so.

dolphin city wrote: »

I know I am more than welcome to think you are wrong - I do think so. And I'd say you will be backing down a lot more over the coming days. We can all google - including yourself pet.

yes indeed, we all can, but it doesn't look like the majority of posters here are actually doing it, which again is my whole point.

i've provided links to multiple articles from legitimate scientific sources showing factual information and corroborating evidence as to why I think I'm right. all you've done is tell me that you think i'm wrong with nothing to back up your assertion, agreed that everyone can 'google it' without actually checking things out for yourself and then called me 'pet'. it's not exactly the strongest argument i've ever heard.

how about actually reading the links i've (and others, see previous post) posted and then doing some work to try and refute them instead?

patmac · 15-03-2011 01:13PM

Back on topic there is a plaque in Hiroshima which signifies how the first bus ran 6 days after the bomb hit.

seamus · 15-03-2011 01:14PM

Tbf guys, this isn't a thread about Japan, there are two other threads for that.

This is the BBC drama I was referring to above:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0775665/

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they took this opportunity to show it again in the next few weeks. It's well worth a watch.

Realtine · 15-03-2011 01:19PM

Apart from all the 'breaking news stories and reports' what is the worst case scenario with this?

The so call experts all seem to be contradicting themselves - we've gone from " well that won't happen" to "OMG that just happened"
and "well ,that reactor is safe now" to "F*** me it's only gone and blown up".

Are the Japanese authorities playing it down for fears of mass panic, is it really bad and they're pretending it's not?

dolphin city · 15-03-2011 01:21PM

vibe666 wrote: »

the Sun is just one example of the vast majority of newspapers and websites reporting a sensationalist and inaccurate account of what is actually happening, so i don't see any problem lumping together anyone who is willing to take their word for it without checking out the facts for themselves who would rather just regurgitate the same misinformation assuming it as fact because the SUN, NYT, CNN or whoever says so.

yes indeed, we all can, but it doesn't look like the majority of posters here are actually doing it, which again is my whole point.

i've provided links to multiple articles from legitimate scientific sources showing factual information and corroborating evidence as to why I think I'm right. all you've done is tell me that you think i'm wrong with nothing to back up your assertion, agreed that everyone can 'google it' without actually checking things out for yourself and then called me 'pet'. it's not exactly the strongest argument i've ever heard.

how about actually reading the links i've (and others, see previous post) posted and then doing some work to try and refute them instead?

I can safely say, and if you check previous posts on here that I am not one for media frenzy and have never picked up the Sun in my life. For you to "lump" everyone into one category like that is quite immature and just shows you up as the all seeing all knowing being who sits there in judgement of everyone that doesn't agree with you - NOT a good look.

Can you tell me who wrote the articles you support, with their "factual information". Let me tell you that for every 'factual bit of info' that you read, there will be some other "expert" saying the opposite. I do think you are wrong and will stick with that. After all you are only going by the "factual information" that suits your thoughts best.

We'll wait and see how expert your opinion is when all is said and done when the "factual information" comes out but just to confirm - I disagree with you wholeheartedly.

vibe666 · 15-03-2011 01:26PM

seamus wrote: »

Tbf guys, this isn't a thread about Japan, there are two other threads for that.

might be worth moving some posts over to one of the other threads and let the OP get back to honouring the people who cleaned up Chernobyl etc.

dolphin city wrote: »

Can you tell me who wrote the articles you support, with their "factual information".

yes i can, nuclear engineers and physicists at MIT as well as other similarly qualified 'experts', i.e. the people who actually know something about nuclear energy production as they are the people who design and run nuclear power facilities.

can you tell me who wrote the articles that you choose to believe? there's a good chance that it the same hack journo's who were reporting on what katie price was doing last week until something more sensational came along for them to make stuff up about.

EDIT: and another article doing it's best to dispel the FUD and BS from a lot of the mainstream media about Fukushima at el reg HERE. READ IT, follow the links at the end to the sources where they got their information and then tell me again that i'm still wrong.

i have no problem at all admitting when i'm wrong and i've done so here on several occasions, but unfortunately i'm very much in the minority around here so lets see how you do. it's actually quite liberating and you really should give it a try, but i don't doubt that as usual those poor mistaken souls will just slink off into the darkness and pretend it never happened rather than growing a pair and admitting their mistakes.

dolphin city · 15-03-2011 03:45PM

vibe666 wrote: »

might be worth moving some posts over to one of the other threads and let the OP get back to honouring the people who cleaned up Chernobyl etc.

yes i can, nuclear engineers and physicists at MIT as well as other similarly qualified 'experts', i.e. the people who actually know something about nuclear energy production as they are the people who design and run nuclear power facilities.

can you tell me who wrote the articles that you choose to believe? there's a good chance that it the same hack journo's who were reporting on what katie price was doing last week until something more sensational came along for them to make stuff up about.

EDIT: and another article doing it's best to dispel the FUD and BS from a lot of the mainstream media about Fukushima at el reg HERE. READ IT, follow the links at the end to the sources where they got their information and then tell me again that i'm still wrong.

i have no problem at all admitting when i'm wrong and i've done so here on several occasions, but unfortunately i'm very much in the minority around here so lets see how you do. it's actually quite liberating and you really should give it a try, but i don't doubt that as usual those poor mistaken souls will just slink off into the darkness and pretend it never happened rather than growing a pair and admitting their mistakes.

:and for every one of those there is a person just as educated, just as intelligent with the opposite view.

by the way, how on earth do you know who katie price is - surely you shouldn't know that nonsense at all in your little world. Oh wait, maybe the physicists at MIT told you about her.

I'm glad you have no problem admitting you are wrong - I'll be waiting.

just to let you know that you are spouting out OTHER PEOPLE'S opinions that you have just read. How do you think you are not one of their sheep. Or are you of the mind that you are extremely unique and anybody who disagrees with YOU is nothing more than a nuisance to you. Still you will live and learn. It happens to us all.

you'll understand when you live a little more.

vibe666 · 15-03-2011 04:13PM

dolphin city wrote: »

:and for every one of those there is a person just as educated, just as intelligent with the opposite view.

no there isn't and you won't find any because they aren't there. but instead of actually trying to read something with a little bit of credibility to defend your views you resort to name something which i will have to assume is an attempt at mockery.

show me something written by someone with some credibility who actually knows something about how nuclear power generation works and you might actually achieve something here, other than that you are just flapping your lips with no purpose.

from your attempts at snide remarks i have to assume you know by now that you don't actually have a valid argument and are using something resembling sarcasm as a weapon to discredit my opinion, but unless you can actually show some evidence that your opinion is validated by empirical evidence, you are falling on deaf ears that are starting to get embarrassed on your behalf.

how about you either come up with some evidence instead of just hollow snide remarks, slink away or admit your mistakes and move on.

dolphin city · 15-03-2011 04:26PM

vibe666 wrote: »

no there isn't and you won't find any because they aren't there. but instead of actually trying to read something with a little bit of credibility to defend your views you resort to name something which i will have to assume is an attempt at mockery.

show me something written by someone with some credibility who actually knows something about how nuclear power generation works and you might actually achieve something here, other than that you are just flapping your lips with no purpose.

from your attempts at snide remarks i have to assume you know by now that you don't actually have a valid argument and are using something resembling sarcasm as a weapon to discredit my opinion, but unless you can actually show some evidence that your opinion is validated by empirical evidence, you are falling on deaf ears that are starting to get embarrassed on your behalf.

how about you either come up with some evidence instead of just hollow snide remarks, slink away or admit your mistakes and move on.

re. bolded bit above - that's the funniest twelve words I've read all day - explains a lot really as to how your mind is working.

look, seriously tho, the situation is getting pretty serious over there now - isn't it time you got of this boardie's website which is equivalent to reading The Sun, (heh heh) and get on the blower to your mates in MIT to let them know your'e headin over there to sort out the sheeple for once and for all. Go on- get going. Hilarioius.

:D

vibe666 · 15-03-2011 04:40PM

dolphin city wrote: »

re. bolded bit above - that's the funniest twelve words I've read all day - explains a lot really as to how your mind is working.

look, seriously tho, the situation is getting pretty serious over there now - isn't it time you got of this boardie's website which is equivalent to reading The Sun, (heh heh) and get on the blower to your mates in MIT to let them know your'e headin over there to sort out the sheeple for once and for all. Go on- get going. Hilarioius. :D

i've asked you several times to provide some legitimate evidence of your BS opinion being anything other than total guff, but you still respond with nothing except sarcasm.

the lowest form of wit? yes, very much so and until you can contribute something worthwhile, this is pointless.

and the situation is not getting serious, it never has been. for the most part it's pretty much over with the only casualty being someone who died in a crane accident.

again, feel free to provide some proof that you do actually have something valid to contribute, but i won't be holding my breath.

dolphin city · 15-03-2011 04:53PM

vibe666 wrote: »

i've asked you several times to provide some legitimate evidence of your BS opinion being anything other than total guff, but you still respond with nothing except sarcasm.

the lowest form of wit? yes, very much so and until you can contribute something worthwhile, this is pointless.

and the situation is not getting serious, it never has been. for the most part it's pretty much over with the only casualty being someone who died in a crane accident.

again, feel free to provide some proof that you do actually have something valid to contribute, but i won't be holding my breath.

ah do, go on.

listen spouting out something that somebody told you does not count as you knowing anything at all. As I said watch and learn.

and don't be getting your thong in a twist because somebody told you you didn't know everything.

vibe666 · 15-03-2011 05:15PM

dolphin city wrote: »

ah do, go on.

listen spouting out something that somebody told you does not count as you knowing anything at all. As I said watch and learn.

and don't be getting your thong in a twist because somebody told you you didn't know everything.

again, more baseless guff and sarcasm in place of an actual argument.

several hours down the line and you still haven't provided anything more than the above in support of your opinion.

you've claimed that for every nuclear expert i produce supporting my opinion on the matter, there is another one with an opposite opinion, but you are yet to produce anything at all to substantiate this assertion.

how about you actually contribute something worthwhile to the thread for a change?

user1842 · 15-03-2011 05:44PM

I have to say those Russian soldiers were heroes.

According to the world nuclear association 28 people died.

According to wikipedia 57 people died.

The total mis-information on this accident is ridiculous.

A professor on the Pat Kenny show today stated that only 27 people died and he directly advises the EU on radiation safety.

My question is what happened to the 700,000 soldiers that received many lifetime doses of radiation. The problem is that the majority of these went home to the far reaches of Russia after the clean-up, never to show in a statistic again. No study has been done on how many of these heroes died because no records exist.

To say only 28 people died from the accident in my opinion is an insult to all those who worked in the clean-up operation.

Of course I cannot prove than any of these soldiers died as no records exist.

Its really sad.

That's my opinion anyway.

Overflow · 15-03-2011 07:20PM

vibe666 wrote: »

nobody in Fukushima is dying of radiation sickness (nor will they) and no countryside is going to get irradiated, now or at any time in the foreseeable future.

Well i believe you are wrong. How about the fact that just one hour ago the Japanese Chief cabinet secretary announced that a 3rd explosion has caused harmful levels of radiation to start leaking.

Eat your hat and swallow it, you were trying to come off all high an mighty based on research you did, that was based on the facts at that time, the situation is evolving and continuing to do so, so no-one can for sure tell what will be the final outcome of this disaster.

Solnskaya · 15-03-2011 07:25PM

vibe666 wrote: »

for now, we're specifically talking about Fukushima and i know it's an old reactor and it doesn't have a great safety record, but lets not forget that a poor safety record by japanese standards is still a hell of a lot better than most places.

QUOTE]

Standards applied are international, this installation failed to meet international spec, not Japanese spec and was due to be decomissioned last year. It was only given a 10 year licence extension by the Japanese Govt. due to expediency and lack of a replacement, not because it was good. Secondly, if the emissions so far are so low with such a short half-life, it is a wonder that the U.S 7th fleet made an abrupt U-turn and steamed away to a safe distance.

goose2002 · 15-03-2011 08:18PM

Solnskaya wrote: »

Standards applied are international, this installation failed to meet international spec, not Japanese spec and was due to be decomissioned last year. It was only given a 10 year licence extension by the Japanese Govt. due to expediency and lack of a replacement, not because it was good. Secondly, if the emissions so far are so low with such a short half-life, it is a wonder that the U.S 7th fleet made an abrupt U-turn and steamed away to a safe distance.

I think you'll probably find that there is such a stigma with the idea of radiation that they are just being very very over cautious. These days im sure the Us Navy knows it is not immune to the possibility of some of these sailors deciding to sue in the future if they develop cancer saying that they had been put in harms way. They admitted that it was very low dose so the sailors were in no danger.

I have to agree with Vibe666 in that this story is being very hyped up and as very few people know even basic facts with regards to radiation exposure it very easy for people to overreact. I do however wonder about the exposure the 50 remaining workers are experiencing but I am certain that they are taking as many precautions as possible. Anybody involved with radiation monitoring or work there should be equipped with dosimeters to measure the total exposure to radiation. In reality that is the important thing to measure. I've heard of rates of exposure (mSv/hr) which have been high. But if that rate only lasted for a very short space of time then the total exposure can still be low enough not to cause any harm.

Mike 1972 · 15-03-2011 08:42PM

Solnskaya wrote: »

Vibe, are we discussing Fukushima here, or the nuclear industry in general? If we are discussing Fukushima 1 and 2, we are not discussing state of the art plants with exemplerary safety features. We are discussing an antiquated plant with a history of safety breaches and an already criticised cooling system with documented flaws-that is without the addition of unknown damage from the quake and tsunami..

I see the goalposts are moving again.

First of all it the line was that a meltdown could never happen.

Then it was that a meltdown could never happen except perhaps in the Soviet Union where they had some really crappy and badly operated reactors

Now its that a meltdown could never happen except perhaps in the former Soviet Union or Japan where they have some really crappy and badly operated reactors

vibe666 · 16-03-2011 01:15AM

Overflow wrote: »

Well i believe you are wrong. How about the fact that just one hour ago the Japanese Chief cabinet secretary announced that a 3rd explosion has caused harmful levels of radiation to start leaking.

define 'harmful levels'? i don't see any evidence of anything other than a couple of extremely localised (i.e. within the grounds of the reactor compound) spikes and some slightly elevated background radiation beyond that.

the exclusion zone around the plant is nothing more than an exceptionally overcautious exercise and the US retreat is nothing more than the usual alarmist BS overreaction from the nation that invented it. i wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that they all left the area doing the Team America secret signal.

yes there have been fires in a waste fuel pool which again may have created brief and harmless (due to the isotopes involved) radiation spikes, but they have not caused any significant radiation threat and was caused simply by a lack of attention to something which was not a perceived danger in the big scheme of things.

from some of what i've read, one possible cause *may have been* that the coolant levels in the waste fuel pools could have been kept topped up by nothing more extravagant than someone with a garden hose giving it a bit of a top-up every few hours, but i guess (assuming this was the case) with limited resources keeping an eye on a reactor that had been in cold shutdown since november was not high on their list of things to do. having said that there are other reports doing the rounds of other causes for the fire(s) so at this stage it's probably wise to reserve judgement until we get some actual facts rather than speculation.

Overflow wrote: »

Eat your hat and swallow it, you were trying to come off all high an mighty based on research you did, that was based on the facts at that time, the situation is evolving and continuing to do so, so no-one can for sure tell what will be the final outcome of this disaster.

as i've already said, if i'm wrong about the outcome of all this i'll be the first to admit it, but i still see no reason for people to start panicking unnecessarily about this when there are far more important things to worry about in Japan at the moment, not least the massive loss of life and ongoing hardships of the survivors of the tsunami.

and none of this has anything to do with being high and mighty, it's got to do with trying to stop people from mindlessly swallowing the scaremongering bullsh1t produced by the main stream media surrounding the reactor problems in Fukushima and regurgitating it for more people to swallow.

thousands of people have already died and i'm sure more will die before this is all over, but not from nightmare nuclear scenario's dreamed up by the press, but from REAL problems like a lack of water, food, shelter & sanitation. if you want to worry about something, then make sure it's something that is a real, current threat to public health & safety in japan.

at the end of the day, a 40 year old nuclear power station well past it's use by date has survived an earthquake at least 5 times stronger than what it was ever designed to withstand, THEN a 10 metre tidal wave 3m higher than it was built to withstand shortly afterwards, not to mention many aftershocks of varying severity AND another earthquake in the following days and for the most part it's still standing, despite pretty much everything going wrong since then that could possibly go wrong in every nightmare scenario ever conceived.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I see the goalposts are moving again.

First of all it the line was that a meltdown could never happen.

Then it was that a meltdown could never happen except perhaps in the Soviet Union where they had some really crappy and badly operated reactors

Now its that a meltdown could never happen except perhaps in the former Soviet Union or Japan where they have some really crappy and badly operated reactors

dear oh dear, what on earth are you talking about?

diddlybit · 16-03-2011 04:40AM

Briefly back to the topic...

This is an article by the NY Times about the mentality of individuals that stay behind despite the risks of radiation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/world/asia/16workers.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

vibe666 · 16-03-2011 07:17AM

well, there was another brief spike in radiation that caused the remaining plant workers to be evacuated temporarily, but they have since been allowed to return and continue working.

what caused it or exactly how bad is was is still a little unclear, but there is still no evidence that it was anything more than another localised spike and that there is still no danger of anyone outside of the plant being irradiated or of a meltdown, although if things do get worse again, you may have the pleasure of seeing me admit that i was wrong.

don't hold your breath tho as aside from that spike everything else appears to be continuing to subside so like i said before, it looks like it's pretty much over.

dolphin city · 16-03-2011 10:22AM

morning Vibe

what expert info are you trying to lob down our throats this morning. Have you been in touch with your MIT experts yet - are you flying to Japan today to tell them what to do.

I tried to tell you yesterday to get off your high horse - but you too bullheaded to realise that the opinions that you have been fed are not right. Again, I will be awaiting your retreat and apology.

I also note other people are now seeing the arrogance in your ignorence.

user1842 · 16-03-2011 10:23AM

"Heroism in a nuclear threat" is the topic of the thread. Can we get back to that

dolphin city · 16-03-2011 10:25AM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I see the goalposts are moving again.

First of all it the line was that a meltdown could never happen.

Then it was that a meltdown could never happen except perhaps in the Soviet Union where they had some really crappy and badly operated reactors

Now its that a meltdown could never happen except perhaps in the former Soviet Union or Japan where they have some really crappy and badly operated reactors

ah it's okay, sure there's a lad in there with a garden hose topping up the water levels every few hours.

:D:D

vibe666 · 16-03-2011 10:40AM

dolphin city wrote: »

morning Vibe

what expert info are you trying to lob down our throats this morning. Have you been in touch with your MIT experts yet - are you flying to Japan today to tell them what to do.

I tried to tell you yesterday to get off your high horse - but you too bullheaded to realise that the opinions that you have been fed are not right. Again, I will be awaiting your retreat and apology.

I also note other people are now seeing the arrogance in your ignorence.

again with nothing to contribute but an idiotic attempt at sarcasm.

when you make enough of an effort to post something worth replying to, you'll get one.

dolphin city · 16-03-2011 11:06AM

vibe666 wrote: »

again with nothing to contribute but an idiotic attempt at sarcasm.

when you make enough of an effort to post something worth replying to, you'll get one.

I wouldn't bother if I were you.

Son Of A Vidic · 16-03-2011 12:23PM

Great post OP and quite apt in the current climate. Those Russians lads were true hero's indeed and we all owe a great deal to them. One can only imagine what's really going on at the coalface of the Fukushima reactors. But undoubtedly, a small group of people are taking great risks for the greater good.

stimpson · 16-03-2011 01:07PM

Here vibe666 - get yourself a clue

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=partial-meltdowns-hydrogen-explosions-at-fukushima-nuclear-power-plant#comments

But the explosion at reactor No. 2 is potentially more serious as it seems to have affected pressure in the suppression pool—a massive pool of water stored in a torus-shaped chamber beneath the reactor itself that both cools and captures any escaping radioactive materials. If the suppression pool is damaged or cracked and can no longer help cool the reactor—and 2.7 meters of the fuel rods in that reactor remain exposed, according to Tokyo Electric Power Company—radioactive material might escape.

And if the temperature continues to rise—and the reaction of zirconium and oxygen produces yet more heat—the cladding itself can spontaneously combust. "If the temperature gets high enough then you get a self-propagating reaction and a fire that would burn like a sparkler," says physicist Arjun Makhijani, president of the Institute for Energy and Environmental Research. "If it catches fire, all bets are off."

dolphin city · 16-03-2011 03:45PM

stimpson wrote: »

Here vibe666 - get yourself a clue

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=partial-meltdowns-hydrogen-explosions-at-fukushima-nuclear-power-plant#comments

ah it's okay, sure there's a lad in there with a garden hose topping up the water levels every few hours.

:D

Heroism in a nuclear threat

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