Heroism in a nuclear threat

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Here's a tribute to the people trying to avert nuclear explosions in Japan:

"Sergei Vasilyevich Sobolev
Deputy head of the executive committee of the Shield of Chernobyl Association

There was a moment when there was the danger of a nuclear explosion, and they had to get the water out from under the reactor, so that a mixture of uranium and graphite wouldn't get into it - with the water, they would have formed a critical mass. The explosion would have been between three and five megatons. This would have meant that not only Kiev and Minsk, but a large part of Europe would have been uninhabitable. Can you imagine it? A European catastrophe.
So here was the task: who would dive in there and open the bolt on the safety valve? They promised them a car, an apartment, a dacha, aid for their families until the end of time. They searched for volunteers. And they found them! The boys dived, many times, and they opened that bolt, and the unit was given 7,000 roubles. They forgot about the cars and apartments they promised - that's not why they dived. These are people who came from a certain culture, the culture of the great achievement. They were a sacrifice.
And what about the soldiers who worked on the roof of the reactor? Two hundred and ten military units were thrown at the liquidation of the fallout of the catastrophe, which equals about 340,000 military personnel. The ones cleaning the roof got it the worst. They had lead vests, but the radiation was coming from below, and they weren't protected there. They were wearing ordinary, cheap imitation-leather boots. They spent about a minute and a half, two minutes on the roof each day, and then they were discharged, given a certificate and an award - 100 roubles. And then they disappeared to the vast peripheries of our motherland. On the roof they gathered fuel and graphite from the reactor, shards of concrete and metal.
It took about 20-30 seconds to fill a wheelbarrow, and then another 30 seconds to throw the "garbage" off the roof. These special wheelbarrows weighed 40 kilos just by themselves. So you can picture it: a lead vest, masks, the wheelbarrows, and insane speed.
In the museum in Kiev they have a mould of graphite the size of a soldier's cap; they say that if it were real it would weigh 16 kilos, that's how dense and heavy graphite is. The radio-controlled machines they used often failed to carry out commands or did the opposite of what they were supposed to do, because their electronics were disrupted by the high radiation. The most reliable "robots" were the soldiers. They were christened the "green robots" [from the colour of their uniforms]. Some 3,600 soldiers worked on the roof of the ruined reactor. They slept on the ground in tents. They were young guys.
These people don't exist any more, just the documents in our museum, with their names."


from a book by Svetlana Alexievich called Voices from Chernobyl, and quoted in the Guardian in 2005.
Some people's lives take them across incredible paths.

vibe666

what happened in Chernobyl is exactly the reason there is no risk of any nuclear explosion in Japan. it's not going to happen and anyone who knows more than your average sun journalist about how a nuclear power station works knows that.

Stinicker

vibe666 wrote: »

what happened in Chernobyl is exactly the reason there is no risk of any nuclear explosion in Japan. it's not going to happen and anyone who knows more than your average sun journalist about how a nuclear power station works knows that.

Nuclear power can be as safe as it wants, yet however add in enough variables and it will go wrong and thus is not safe. When an Oil or Coal plant blows up at least it will not spew Radiation everywhere.

The world really needs to wake up to the reality that Nuclear Fission is not and will never be safe in its current form. Irradiating the land is not worth it for a small Co2 saving.

vibe666

Stinicker wrote: »

Nuclear power can be as safe as it wants, yet however add in enough variables and it will go wrong and thus is not safe. When an Oil or Coal plant blows up at least it will not spew Radiation everywhere.

The world really needs to wake up to the reality that Nuclear Fission is not and will never be safe in its current form. Irradiating the land is not worth it for a small Co2 saving.

and yet again, someone who knows nothing about nuclear power or how modern nuclear reactors work is spreading FUD. :rolleyes:

the absolute worst effects anyone in Fukushima (or anywhere else with a modern nuclear reactor for that matter) can expect, even in the event of a reactor meltdown is similar to what they'd get from an x-ray procedure, or a transatlantic flight.

nobody in Fukushima is dying of radiation sickness (nor will they) and no countryside is going to get irradiated, now or at any time in the foreseeable future.

dannydiamond

Stinicker wrote: »

Nuclear power can be as safe as it wants, yet however add in enough variables and it will go wrong and thus is not safe. When an Oil or Coal plant blows up at least it will not spew Radiation everywhere.

The world really needs to wake up to the reality that Nuclear Fission is not and will never be safe in its current form. Irradiating the land is not worth it for a small Co2 saving.

You obviously know little of which you speak.

vibe666

dannydiamond wrote: »

You obviously know little of which you speak.

i'd have aimed for closer to nothing than very little.

but as usual, the sheeple follow the popularised version of what passes for news these days instead of finding the truth out for themselves, which is a crying shame in the internet age, given all the wealth of knowledge is at their fingertips.

dannydiamond

vibe666 wrote: »

i'd have aimed for closer to nothing than very little.

but as usual, the sheeple follow the popularised version of what passes for news these days instead of finding the truth out for themselves, which is a crying shame in the internet age, given all the wealth of knowledge is at their fingertips.

You should avail of it then, rather than firing random inaccurate comments on said internet.

vibe666

dannydiamond wrote: »

You should avail of it then, rather than firing random inaccurate comments on said internet.

saywhatnow?

mikemac

dannydiamond wrote: »

You should avail of it then, rather than firing random inaccurate comments on said internet.

Crossed wires here I think

vibe666 was agreeing with you
Did you mean to quote someone else?

vibe666

i hope so, i've spent a lot of time reading up on the whole thing and educating myself on exactly what's happening from the people who actually know about it, rather than the press who appear to either know nothing or only know what sells stories and just don't care about the truth.

Solnskaya

Vibe, are we discussing Fukushima here, or the nuclear industry in general? If we are discussing Fukushima 1 and 2, we are not discussing state of the art plants with exemplerary safety features. We are discussing an antiquated plant with a history of safety breaches and an already criticised cooling system with documented flaws-that is without the addition of unknown damage from the quake and tsunami. The critical failure of an ill advised diesel back up generation system as the only fail safe for level 1 cooling requirement does not fill anybody with any technical knowledge with confidence. Hopefully, meltdown will be averted, but the situation is not as cut and dried as you picture it. Fukushima is not a rolls royce, it is a Rover Metro.

vibe666

for now, we're specifically talking about Fukushima and i know it's an old reactor and it doesn't have a great safety record, but lets not forget that a poor safety record by japanese standards is still a hell of a lot better than most places.

yes, there is a (very slight) possibility of a meltdown, but it's hardly the end of the world that the press is depicting is it?

as far as i can see, the worst thing that's happened so far is some overheating due to a power shortage and controlled venting of radioactive steam which has a half-life shorter than the time it's taken me to write this post.

anyway, its time for bed and i really don't care enough to be losing sleep over this.

yammycat

vibe666 wrote: »

yes, there is a (very slight) possibility of a meltdown, but it's hardly the end of the world that the press is depicting is it?

no one bar yourself has spoken of the end of the world. And comparing the effects of a complete meltdown to an x-ray is the daftest thing I have heard in my life.

starbelgrade

vibe666 wrote: »

i hope so, i've spent a lot of time reading up on the whole thing and educating myself on exactly what's happening from the people who actually know about it,

For what purpose - to better yourself, or just to display an apparent superiority of knowledge over others?

If it's the latter, then I would suggest that it was a waste of time because there's always someone who will know more than you, waiting in the wings to lord it over you.

Senna

Ignoring the other posts on here, the OP post is a nice tribute to what was done in Chernobyl. I'd like to think if there was a disaster in Ireland, there would be men and woman willing to sacrifice their life's for the country.
Hell, i'd like to think i would, maybe i would, just hope i never have to find out.

nyarlothothep

Thanks for that OP, that has restored a small bit of faith in humanity, after reading about the fixation with Japan's economy over, you know, the actual people who are suffering. That selflessness was pretty ace.

JonnyMacM

We are certainly full of knowledge! The plant manager has just released a statement saying that a melt down is possible at the moment since the last explosion. Now ignoring the danger from the plant for a minute what about the High level nuclear waste? England has been running nuclear power since the 50s and they still have not figured out what to do with the High Level waste, thats close to 60 years

Don't Drink the Cool Aid!!!

Run_to_da_hills

vibe666 wrote: »

and yet again, someone who knows nothing about nuclear power or how modern nuclear reactors work is spreading FUD. :rolleyes:

the absolute worst effects anyone in Fukushima (or anywhere else with a modern nuclear reactor for that matter) can expect, even in the event of a reactor meltdown is similar to what they'd get from an x-ray procedure, or a transatlantic flight.

nobody in Fukushima is dying of radiation sickness (nor will they) and no countryside is going to get irradiated, now or at any time in the foreseeable future.

Is your name by any chance Montgomery Burns?

MASTER...of the bra

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Is your name by any chance Montgomery Burns?

LOL

Ceefax on BBC1 pg 125/128 has a good piece on Nuclear power.

vibe666

yammycat wrote: »

no one bar yourself has spoken of the end of the world. And comparing the effects of a complete meltdown to an x-ray is the daftest thing I have heard in my life.

hardly, i was responding to another post in the thread. :rolleyes:

starbelgrade wrote: »

For what purpose - to better yourself, or just to display an apparent superiority of knowledge over others?

for no other reason than to try and counter some of the sensationalist FUD spread by the press that people on here (and everywhere else) love to spread around the minute anything potentially dangerous happens.

JonnyMacM wrote: »

We are certainly full of knowledge! The plant manager has just released a statement saying that a melt down is possible at the moment since the last explosion. Now ignoring the danger from the plant for a minute what about the High level nuclear waste? England has been running nuclear power since the 50s and they still have not figured out what to do with the High Level waste, thats close to 60 years

strangely enough, i was reading an article about repurposing nuclear waste in a new type of power plant. things are moving forward all the time.

MASTER...of the bra wrote: »

Ceefax on BBC1 pg 125/128 has a good piece on Nuclear power.

that's great, but does anyone still use ceefax? maybe you could fax it over to the rest of us.

there's also a great article here: http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/ specifically about Fukushima for anyone interested in reading something other than the sun.

gosuckonalemon

Stinicker wrote: »

Nuclear power can be as safe as it wants, yet however add in enough variables and it will go wrong and thus is not safe. When an Oil or Coal plant blows up at least it will not spew Radiation everywhere.

The world really needs to wake up to the reality that Nuclear Fission is not and will never be safe in its current form. Irradiating the land is not worth it for a small Co2 saving.

Nuclear Power is safe. No major harm will come of this. The burning of fossil fuels is destroying our environment and a finite source of energy. Thousands of people die in China every year in coal mines. Look at the disaster in NZ.
Apart from Chernobyl (which would never happen again due to technlogical advances) what harm has nuclear energy caused to date?

The world urgently needs more nuclear energy to satisfy man's appetite for energy consumption.

You have no idea what you are on about, do you?

vibe666

there's also a lot of good, honest (and accurate) information HERE for anyone actually interested in the truth rather than the poorly written hollywood disaster movie script you'll see in the news.

jackiebaron

vibe666 wrote: »

and yet again, someone who knows nothing about nuclear power or how modern nuclear reactors work is spreading FUD. :rolleyes:

the absolute worst effects anyone in Fukushima (or anywhere else with a modern nuclear reactor for that matter) can expect, even in the event of a reactor meltdown is similar to what they'd get from an x-ray procedure, or a transatlantic flight.

nobody in Fukushima is dying of radiation sickness (nor will they) and no countryside is going to get irradiated, now or at any time in the foreseeable future.

Well can you explain the high doses of radiation that some plant workers have sustained at Fukushima? Apparently one worker is now suffering from full-on radiation sickness and a 17 man US Navy crew who flew their choppers over the area have shown elevated contamination when back on the USS Ronald Reagan and had to undergo radiation scrubs. That to me sounds a little bit more than you would get from an X-ray and there hasn't BEEN a meltdown.
Stop trivializing! A reactor meltdown and all you can expect is radiation along what you would receive from an x-ray or a flight!!!! Get real!

jackiebaron

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

Nuclear Power is safe. No major harm will come of this. The burning of fossil fuels is destroying our environment and a finite source of energy. Thousands of people die in China every year in coal mines. Look at the disaster in NZ.
Apart from Chernobyl (which would never happen again due to technlogical advances) what harm has nuclear energy caused to date?

The world urgently needs more nuclear energy to satisfy man's appetite for energy consumption.

You have no idea what you are on about, do you?

Nuclear power is probably safe but it's disposal of the spent fuel that concerns me.

seamus

There was a great drama on BBC (or possibly channel 4) a couple of years back about the Chernobyl disaster. Starring Adrian Edmondson of all people.

I feel sorry for many of the soldiers. Although they were given protective gear and told to work as quickly as possible, they weren't actually told about the dangers or the dangers were played down.

Near the start of the disaster there were heli flyovers dropping sand (I think) down onto the reactor to extinguish the fires. Personnel involved recalled looking down and seeing the exposed reactor core, unknown to them spewing out radiation in doses which ended their lives.

There were some serious balls-out heroes in it though. People who stayed behind to try and keep containment and open/close safety valves, despite knowing about the inherent fatal dangers. Those close to the reactor worked while their bodies literally melted from the level of radiation being output.

It's actually an interesting read. I was only 4 when it happened, so I remember nothing of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

dolphin city

vibe666 wrote: »

for now, we're specifically talking about Fukushima and i know it's an old reactor and it doesn't have a great safety record, but lets not forget that a poor safety record by japanese standards is still a hell of a lot better than most places.

yes, there is a (very slight) possibility of a meltdown, but it's hardly the end of the world that the press is depicting is it?

as far as i can see, the worst thing that's happened so far is some overheating due to a power shortage and controlled venting of radioactive steam which has a half-life shorter than the time it's taken me to write this post.

anyway, its time for bed and i really don't care enough to be losing sleep over this.

for someone at the start of this thread that was so "knowledgable" about what was going on, and telling the people who had the opposite opinion that they were nothing but "sheeple", I find in this post you are now losing your own arguement and backing down rapidly.

dolphin city

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

Nuclear Power is safe. No major harm will come of this. The burning of fossil fuels is destroying our environment and a finite source of energy. Thousands of people die in China every year in coal mines. Look at the disaster in NZ.
Apart from Chernobyl (which would never happen again due to technlogical advances) what harm has nuclear energy caused to date?

The world urgently needs more nuclear energy to satisfy man's appetite for energy consumption.

You have no idea what you are on about, do you?

so you obviously haven't heard about the fishlife in the Irish Sea then. have you. or is that just a coincidink

ChocolateSauce

I lost interest at "Nuclear Explosion". It is impossible for a nuclear plant to generate a nuclear explosion, even in a meltdown.

vibe666

jackiebaron wrote: »

Well can you explain the high doses of radiation that some plant workers have sustained at Fukushima? Apparently one worker is now suffering from full-on radiation sickness and a 17 man US Navy crew who flew their choppers over the area have shown elevated contamination when back on the USS Ronald Reagan and had to undergo radiation scrubs. That to me sounds a little bit more than you would get from an X-ray and there hasn't BEEN a meltdown.
Stop trivializing! A reactor meltdown and all you can expect is radiation along what you would receive from an x-ray or a flight!!!! Get real!

yes, quite easily. more FUD from the mainstream press, which is exactly my point. :rolleyes:

the reason it sounds like a bit more than you would get from an x-ray is because that's the impression they are trying to give, just to sell stories, rather than reporting on the facts.

did anyone reporting on these 'stories' actually say how much exposure constitutes 'high' or 'elevated' in their opinion or what they consider to be 'full-on radiation sickness'? having a full CT scan would be considered a 'high' dose compared to an arm x-ray, but that doesn't make it particularly unsafe to have one.

there was a brief localised radiation spike for a few minutes this morning and there is a minor leak that they are still trying to plug, in addition to the controlled venting but it was just that, 'minor'. the only real danger to the people of Fukushima from the power station will be due to the lack of power due to it's absence, not from a meltdown.

even if it did meltdown, the biggest issue is going to be the cost of the cleanup, not from radiation exposure.

dolphin city wrote: »

for someone at the start of this thread that was so "knowledgable" about what was going on, and telling the people who had the opposite opinion that they were nothing but "sheeple", I find in this post you are now losing your own arguement and backing down rapidly.

how so exactly? I'm not backing down at all and i don't see any reason why i should so far, as there isn't anyone here offering anything except misinformed opinion based solely on unsubstantiated scaremongering from the mainstream media that i am trying to steer the 'sheeple' away from, rather than any fact based contributions.

put down your copy of The Sun and try reading a few factual science based news sites and forums and then come back with a proper argument if you're going to try and argue a particular point, rather than just point and laugh without contributing anything.

you're more than welcome to think that i'm wrong, but if you want to contribute then show me why you think i'm wrong instead of just pointing the finger and that way if i am wrong then I'll be happy to back down and accept your superior googling skills and we'll all be better off as a whole for it.

prinz

To carry on from the OP, some of you will know the film K-19 The Widowmaker, what you may not know is that it is based on a real incident, when a Soviet nuclear sub was in danger off the U.S./Canada/Greenland Atlantic Coast..

On 4 July 1961, under the command of Captain First Rank Nikolai Vladimirovich Zateyev, K-19 was conducting exercises in the North Atlantic close to Southern Greenland when it developed a major leak in its reactor coolant system, causing the water pressure in the aft reactor to drop to zero and causing failure of the coolant pumps. A separate accident had disabled the long-range radio system, so they could not contact Moscow. The reactor temperature rose uncontrollably, reaching 800 °C (1,470 °F) — almost the melting point of the fuel rods — and the chain reactions continued despite the control rods being inserted via a SCRAM mechanism. The reactor continued to heat up as coolant is still required during shutdown until the reactions decrease. Despite Zateyev's and others' earlier requests, no backup cooling system had been installed.
As a cooling back-up system had not been installed, Zateyev made a drastic decision; a team of seven engineering officers and crew worked for extended periods in high-radiation areas to implement a new coolant system by cutting off an air vent valve and welding a water-supplying pipe into it. Since the ship carried chemical suits, instead of radiation suits, they were certain to be lethally contaminated,I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"][COLOR=#0645ad]citation needed[/COLOR][/URL][/I but the repair team was unaware of the degree of risk, believing the suits they wore would protect them from contamination. The released radioactive steam, containing fission products, was drawn into the ventilation system and spread to other sections of the ship. The cooling water pumped from the reactor section worked well.
The incident contaminated the crew, parts of the ship, and some of the ballistic missiles carried on board; the entire crew received substantial doses of radiation, and all seven men in the repair crew died of radiation exposure within a week, and twenty more within the next few years. The captain decided to head south to meet diesel submarines expected to be there, instead of continuing on the mission's planned route. Worries about a potential crew mutiny prompted Zateyev to have all small arms thrown overboard except for five pistols distributed to his most trusted officers. A diesel submarine, S-270, picked up K-19's low-power distress transmissions and joined up with it.
American warships nearby had also heard the transmission and offered to help, but Zateyev, afraid of giving away Soviet military secrets to the West, refused and sailed to meet the S-270. Its crew was evacuated, and the boat was towed to the home base; after landing, the vessel contaminated a zone within 700 m (2,300 ft). The damaged reactors were removed and replaced, a process which took two years. During this time, there was further radiation poisoning of the environment and the workers involved.
The official explanation of the disaster is that during the repair process, it was discovered that the catastrophe had been caused by a drop from a welding electrode that had fallen into the first cooling circuit of the aft reactor during the initial construction. However, this is disputed. According to retired Rear-Admiral Nikolai Mormul, when the reactor was first started ashore, no pressure gauge had been connected to the first cooling circuit. By the time somebody realized what was happening, the pipes had been subjected to a pressure of 400 atmospheres; double the acceptable limit. Checking the pipes would have been costly and reporting the negligence would have hurt the career of Captain Zateyev, who preferred to hide the fact. K-19 returned to the fleet, now having acquired the additional nickname "Hiroshima".
On 1 February 2006, former President of the Soviet Union Mikhail Gorbachev proposed in a letter to the Norwegian Nobel Committee that the crew of K-19 be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize for their actions on 4 July 1961.[3] In late March 2006, Nikolai Zateyev was formally nominated for the award.

On July 4, 1961, while K-19 was operating near southern Greenland, water pressure in the starboard nuclear reactor plummeted due a coolant leak in an area of the reactor very difficult to access. The loss of coolant caused the reactor to begin to overheat, endangering the integrity of the control rods and, as Zateyev mistakenly believed, risking a nuclear explosion.[5] The captain believed that such an explosion would damage a nearby NATO base and could cause a nuclear war between the Soviet Union and the United States. Mikhail Gorbachov later wrote that "An explosion on board the K-19 could have been taken for a military provocation or even an attempt to launch a nuclear strike on the North American coast. An immediate response by the United States and NATO could have triggered off a Third World War."[5] Eight crewmen died in the days that followed July 4, after working in the reactor core,[1] however a jury-rigged coolant system successfully averted any catastrophe. The K-19 was later towed back to harbor and its reactors were replaced over a period of two years.
Following the incident, Zateyev and the crew were instructed to keep silent about the accident, and neither the replacement crew for the K-19 nor the families of those who had died were notified. The victims of radiation poisoning were buried in lead coffins at sea, according to the letter written by Mikhail Gorbachev to the Norwegian Nobel Committee in 2006. Only in 1990 were the survivors, 56 by February 1, 2006, permitted to speak.[5]

grrrrrrrrrr

How can there be such difference in scientific opinion on this. Surely theres an instrument they can use some equipment to measure this. Heard a woman on Morning Ireland this morning saying that the background radiation in Ireland that we have to put up with is 4 ("fairy") units a year but its 400 per hour in Japan now. It seems to. Be the blind leading the blind on this one. Where are the facts and figures. Opinion is useless because its bias. Its very easy for both broadsheet and tabloid to warn of a MELTDOWN or WIPEOUT but where are the facts. Surely even a reporter could use a gieger counter or equilivant?
please only constructively critise my post and my ignorance

dolphin city

vibe666 wrote: »

yes, quite easily. more FUD from the mainstream press, which is exactly my point. :rolleyes:

the reason it sounds like a bit more than you would get from an x-ray is because that's the impression they are trying to give, just to sell stories, rather than reporting on the facts.

did anyone reporting on these 'stories' actually say how much exposure constitutes 'high' or 'elevated' in their opinion or what they consider to be 'full-on radiation sickness'? having a full CT scan would be considered a 'high' dose compared to an arm x-ray, but that doesn't make it particularly unsafe to have one.

there was a brief localised radiation spike for a few minutes this morning and there is a minor leak that they are still trying to plug, in addition to the controlled venting but it was just that, 'minor'. the only real danger to the people of Fukushima from the power station will be due to the lack of power due to it's absence, not from a meltdown.

even if it did meltdown, the biggest issue is going to be the cost of the cleanup, not from radiation exposure.
how so exactly? I'm not backing down at all and i don't see any reason why i should so far, as there isn't anyone here offering anything except misinformed opinion based solely on unsubstantiated scaremongering from the mainstream media that i am trying to steer the 'sheeple' away from, rather than any fact based contributions.

put down your copy of The Sun and try reading a few factual science based news sites and forums and then come back with a proper argument if you're going to try and argue a particular point, rather than just point and laugh without contributing anything.

you're more than welcome to think that i'm wrong, but if you want to contribute then show me why you think i'm wrong instead of just pointing the finger and that way if i am wrong then I'll be happy to back down and accept your superior googling skills and we'll all be better off as a whole for it.

does everyone that disagrees with you read the Sun - or is that just something that you like to spit out to make yourself feel better? Or if someone doesn't agree you say they are "pointing and laughing" very mature I must say.

I know I am more than welcome to think you are wrong - I do think so. And I'd say you will be backing down a lot more over the coming days. We can all google - including yourself pet.

Captain_Generic

I think this quote from an MIT Nuclear Engineer's article pretty much sums everything up nicely:

Events in Japan confirm the robustness of modern nuclear technology — not a failure

Rest of the article here: http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N13/yost.html

vibe666

dolphin city wrote: »

does everyone that disagrees with you read the Sun - or is that just something that you like to spit out to make yourself feel better? Or if someone doesn't agree you say they are "pointing and laughing" very mature I must say.

the Sun is just one example of the vast majority of newspapers and websites reporting a sensationalist and inaccurate account of what is actually happening, so i don't see any problem lumping together anyone who is willing to take their word for it without checking out the facts for themselves who would rather just regurgitate the same misinformation assuming it as fact because the SUN, NYT, CNN or whoever says so.

dolphin city wrote: »

I know I am more than welcome to think you are wrong - I do think so. And I'd say you will be backing down a lot more over the coming days. We can all google - including yourself pet.

yes indeed, we all can, but it doesn't look like the majority of posters here are actually doing it, which again is my whole point.

i've provided links to multiple articles from legitimate scientific sources showing factual information and corroborating evidence as to why I think I'm right. all you've done is tell me that you think i'm wrong with nothing to back up your assertion, agreed that everyone can 'google it' without actually checking things out for yourself and then called me 'pet'. it's not exactly the strongest argument i've ever heard.

how about actually reading the links i've (and others, see previous post) posted and then doing some work to try and refute them instead?

patmac

Back on topic there is a plaque in Hiroshima which signifies how the first bus ran 6 days after the bomb hit.

seamus

Tbf guys, this isn't a thread about Japan, there are two other threads for that.

This is the BBC drama I was referring to above:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0775665/

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they took this opportunity to show it again in the next few weeks. It's well worth a watch.

Realtine

Apart from all the 'breaking news stories and reports' what is the worst case scenario with this?

The so call experts all seem to be contradicting themselves - we've gone from " well that won't happen" to "OMG that just happened"
and "well ,that reactor is safe now" to "F*** me it's only gone and blown up".

Are the Japanese authorities playing it down for fears of mass panic, is it really bad and they're pretending it's not?

dolphin city

vibe666 wrote: »

the Sun is just one example of the vast majority of newspapers and websites reporting a sensationalist and inaccurate account of what is actually happening, so i don't see any problem lumping together anyone who is willing to take their word for it without checking out the facts for themselves who would rather just regurgitate the same misinformation assuming it as fact because the SUN, NYT, CNN or whoever says so.

yes indeed, we all can, but it doesn't look like the majority of posters here are actually doing it, which again is my whole point.

i've provided links to multiple articles from legitimate scientific sources showing factual information and corroborating evidence as to why I think I'm right. all you've done is tell me that you think i'm wrong with nothing to back up your assertion, agreed that everyone can 'google it' without actually checking things out for yourself and then called me 'pet'. it's not exactly the strongest argument i've ever heard.

how about actually reading the links i've (and others, see previous post) posted and then doing some work to try and refute them instead?

I can safely say, and if you check previous posts on here that I am not one for media frenzy and have never picked up the Sun in my life. For you to "lump" everyone into one category like that is quite immature and just shows you up as the all seeing all knowing being who sits there in judgement of everyone that doesn't agree with you - NOT a good look.

Can you tell me who wrote the articles you support, with their "factual information". Let me tell you that for every 'factual bit of info' that you read, there will be some other "expert" saying the opposite. I do think you are wrong and will stick with that. After all you are only going by the "factual information" that suits your thoughts best.

We'll wait and see how expert your opinion is when all is said and done when the "factual information" comes out but just to confirm - I disagree with you wholeheartedly.

vibe666

seamus wrote: »

Tbf guys, this isn't a thread about Japan, there are two other threads for that.

might be worth moving some posts over to one of the other threads and let the OP get back to honouring the people who cleaned up Chernobyl etc.

dolphin city wrote: »

Can you tell me who wrote the articles you support, with their "factual information".

yes i can, nuclear engineers and physicists at MIT as well as other similarly qualified 'experts', i.e. the people who actually know something about nuclear energy production as they are the people who design and run nuclear power facilities.

can you tell me who wrote the articles that you choose to believe? there's a good chance that it the same hack journo's who were reporting on what katie price was doing last week until something more sensational came along for them to make stuff up about.

EDIT: and another article doing it's best to dispel the FUD and BS from a lot of the mainstream media about Fukushima at el reg HERE. READ IT, follow the links at the end to the sources where they got their information and then tell me again that i'm still wrong.

i have no problem at all admitting when i'm wrong and i've done so here on several occasions, but unfortunately i'm very much in the minority around here so lets see how you do. it's actually quite liberating and you really should give it a try, but i don't doubt that as usual those poor mistaken souls will just slink off into the darkness and pretend it never happened rather than growing a pair and admitting their mistakes.

dolphin city

vibe666 wrote: »

might be worth moving some posts over to one of the other threads and let the OP get back to honouring the people who cleaned up Chernobyl etc.

yes i can, nuclear engineers and physicists at MIT as well as other similarly qualified 'experts', i.e. the people who actually know something about nuclear energy production as they are the people who design and run nuclear power facilities.

can you tell me who wrote the articles that you choose to believe? there's a good chance that it the same hack journo's who were reporting on what katie price was doing last week until something more sensational came along for them to make stuff up about.

EDIT: and another article doing it's best to dispel the FUD and BS from a lot of the mainstream media about Fukushima at el reg HERE. READ IT, follow the links at the end to the sources where they got their information and then tell me again that i'm still wrong.

i have no problem at all admitting when i'm wrong and i've done so here on several occasions, but unfortunately i'm very much in the minority around here so lets see how you do. it's actually quite liberating and you really should give it a try, but i don't doubt that as usual those poor mistaken souls will just slink off into the darkness and pretend it never happened rather than growing a pair and admitting their mistakes.

:and for every one of those there is a person just as educated, just as intelligent with the opposite view.

by the way, how on earth do you know who katie price is - surely you shouldn't know that nonsense at all in your little world. Oh wait, maybe the physicists at MIT told you about her.

I'm glad you have no problem admitting you are wrong - I'll be waiting.

just to let you know that you are spouting out OTHER PEOPLE'S opinions that you have just read. How do you think you are not one of their sheep. Or are you of the mind that you are extremely unique and anybody who disagrees with YOU is nothing more than a nuisance to you. Still you will live and learn. It happens to us all. you'll understand when you live a little more.

vibe666

dolphin city wrote: »

:and for every one of those there is a person just as educated, just as intelligent with the opposite view.

no there isn't and you won't find any because they aren't there. but instead of actually trying to read something with a little bit of credibility to defend your views you resort to name something which i will have to assume is an attempt at mockery.

show me something written by someone with some credibility who actually knows something about how nuclear power generation works and you might actually achieve something here, other than that you are just flapping your lips with no purpose.

from your attempts at snide remarks i have to assume you know by now that you don't actually have a valid argument and are using something resembling sarcasm as a weapon to discredit my opinion, but unless you can actually show some evidence that your opinion is validated by empirical evidence, you are falling on deaf ears that are starting to get embarrassed on your behalf.

how about you either come up with some evidence instead of just hollow snide remarks, slink away or admit your mistakes and move on.

dolphin city

vibe666 wrote: »

no there isn't and you won't find any because they aren't there. but instead of actually trying to read something with a little bit of credibility to defend your views you resort to name something which i will have to assume is an attempt at mockery.

show me something written by someone with some credibility who actually knows something about how nuclear power generation works and you might actually achieve something here, other than that you are just flapping your lips with no purpose.

from your attempts at snide remarks i have to assume you know by now that you don't actually have a valid argument and are using something resembling sarcasm as a weapon to discredit my opinion, but unless you can actually show some evidence that your opinion is validated by empirical evidence, you are falling on deaf ears that are starting to get embarrassed on your behalf.

how about you either come up with some evidence instead of just hollow snide remarks, slink away or admit your mistakes and move on.

re. bolded bit above - that's the funniest twelve words I've read all day - explains a lot really as to how your mind is working.

look, seriously tho, the situation is getting pretty serious over there now - isn't it time you got of this boardie's website which is equivalent to reading The Sun, (heh heh) and get on the blower to your mates in MIT to let them know your'e headin over there to sort out the sheeple for once and for all. Go on- get going. Hilarioius. :D

vibe666

dolphin city wrote: »

re. bolded bit above - that's the funniest twelve words I've read all day - explains a lot really as to how your mind is working.

look, seriously tho, the situation is getting pretty serious over there now - isn't it time you got of this boardie's website which is equivalent to reading The Sun, (heh heh) and get on the blower to your mates in MIT to let them know your'e headin over there to sort out the sheeple for once and for all. Go on- get going. Hilarioius. :D

i've asked you several times to provide some legitimate evidence of your BS opinion being anything other than total guff, but you still respond with nothing except sarcasm.

the lowest form of wit? yes, very much so and until you can contribute something worthwhile, this is pointless.

and the situation is not getting serious, it never has been. for the most part it's pretty much over with the only casualty being someone who died in a crane accident.

again, feel free to provide some proof that you do actually have something valid to contribute, but i won't be holding my breath.

dolphin city

vibe666 wrote: »

i've asked you several times to provide some legitimate evidence of your BS opinion being anything other than total guff, but you still respond with nothing except sarcasm.

the lowest form of wit? yes, very much so and until you can contribute something worthwhile, this is pointless.

and the situation is not getting serious, it never has been. for the most part it's pretty much over with the only casualty being someone who died in a crane accident.

again, feel free to provide some proof that you do actually have something valid to contribute, but i won't be holding my breath.

ah do, go on.

listen spouting out something that somebody told you does not count as you knowing anything at all. As I said watch and learn.

and don't be getting your thong in a twist because somebody told you you didn't know everything.

vibe666

dolphin city wrote: »

ah do, go on.

listen spouting out something that somebody told you does not count as you knowing anything at all. As I said watch and learn.

and don't be getting your thong in a twist because somebody told you you didn't know everything.

again, more baseless guff and sarcasm in place of an actual argument.

several hours down the line and you still haven't provided anything more than the above in support of your opinion.

you've claimed that for every nuclear expert i produce supporting my opinion on the matter, there is another one with an opposite opinion, but you are yet to produce anything at all to substantiate this assertion.

how about you actually contribute something worthwhile to the thread for a change?

user1842

I have to say those Russian soldiers were heroes.

According to the world nuclear association 28 people died.

According to wikipedia 57 people died.

The total mis-information on this accident is ridiculous.

A professor on the Pat Kenny show today stated that only 27 people died and he directly advises the EU on radiation safety.

My question is what happened to the 700,000 soldiers that received many lifetime doses of radiation. The problem is that the majority of these went home to the far reaches of Russia after the clean-up, never to show in a statistic again. No study has been done on how many of these heroes died because no records exist.

To say only 28 people died from the accident in my opinion is an insult to all those who worked in the clean-up operation.

Of course I cannot prove than any of these soldiers died as no records exist.

Its really sad.

That's my opinion anyway.

Overflow

vibe666 wrote: »

nobody in Fukushima is dying of radiation sickness (nor will they) and no countryside is going to get irradiated, now or at any time in the foreseeable future.

Well i believe you are wrong. How about the fact that just one hour ago the Japanese Chief cabinet secretary announced that a 3rd explosion has caused harmful levels of radiation to start leaking.

Eat your hat and swallow it, you were trying to come off all high an mighty based on research you did, that was based on the facts at that time, the situation is evolving and continuing to do so, so no-one can for sure tell what will be the final outcome of this disaster.

Solnskaya

vibe666 wrote: »

for now, we're specifically talking about Fukushima and i know it's an old reactor and it doesn't have a great safety record, but lets not forget that a poor safety record by japanese standards is still a hell of a lot better than most places.


QUOTE]

Standards applied are international, this installation failed to meet international spec, not Japanese spec and was due to be decomissioned last year. It was only given a 10 year licence extension by the Japanese Govt. due to expediency and lack of a replacement, not because it was good. Secondly, if the emissions so far are so low with such a short half-life, it is a wonder that the U.S 7th fleet made an abrupt U-turn and steamed away to a safe distance.

goose2002

Solnskaya wrote: »

Standards applied are international, this installation failed to meet international spec, not Japanese spec and was due to be decomissioned last year. It was only given a 10 year licence extension by the Japanese Govt. due to expediency and lack of a replacement, not because it was good. Secondly, if the emissions so far are so low with such a short half-life, it is a wonder that the U.S 7th fleet made an abrupt U-turn and steamed away to a safe distance.

I think you'll probably find that there is such a stigma with the idea of radiation that they are just being very very over cautious. These days im sure the Us Navy knows it is not immune to the possibility of some of these sailors deciding to sue in the future if they develop cancer saying that they had been put in harms way. They admitted that it was very low dose so the sailors were in no danger.

I have to agree with Vibe666 in that this story is being very hyped up and as very few people know even basic facts with regards to radiation exposure it very easy for people to overreact. I do however wonder about the exposure the 50 remaining workers are experiencing but I am certain that they are taking as many precautions as possible. Anybody involved with radiation monitoring or work there should be equipped with dosimeters to measure the total exposure to radiation. In reality that is the important thing to measure. I've heard of rates of exposure (mSv/hr) which have been high. But if that rate only lasted for a very short space of time then the total exposure can still be low enough not to cause any harm.

Mike 1972

Solnskaya wrote: »

Vibe, are we discussing Fukushima here, or the nuclear industry in general? If we are discussing Fukushima 1 and 2, we are not discussing state of the art plants with exemplerary safety features. We are discussing an antiquated plant with a history of safety breaches and an already criticised cooling system with documented flaws-that is without the addition of unknown damage from the quake and tsunami..

I see the goalposts are moving again.

First of all it the line was that a meltdown could never happen.

Then it was that a meltdown could never happen except perhaps in the Soviet Union where they had some really crappy and badly operated reactors

Now its that a meltdown could never happen except perhaps in the former Soviet Union or Japan where they have some really crappy and badly operated reactors

vibe666

Overflow wrote: »

Well i believe you are wrong. How about the fact that just one hour ago the Japanese Chief cabinet secretary announced that a 3rd explosion has caused harmful levels of radiation to start leaking.

define 'harmful levels'? i don't see any evidence of anything other than a couple of extremely localised (i.e. within the grounds of the reactor compound) spikes and some slightly elevated background radiation beyond that.

the exclusion zone around the plant is nothing more than an exceptionally overcautious exercise and the US retreat is nothing more than the usual alarmist BS overreaction from the nation that invented it. i wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that they all left the area doing the Team America secret signal.

yes there have been fires in a waste fuel pool which again may have created brief and harmless (due to the isotopes involved) radiation spikes, but they have not caused any significant radiation threat and was caused simply by a lack of attention to something which was not a perceived danger in the big scheme of things.

from some of what i've read, one possible cause *may have been* that the coolant levels in the waste fuel pools could have been kept topped up by nothing more extravagant than someone with a garden hose giving it a bit of a top-up every few hours, but i guess (assuming this was the case) with limited resources keeping an eye on a reactor that had been in cold shutdown since november was not high on their list of things to do. having said that there are other reports doing the rounds of other causes for the fire(s) so at this stage it's probably wise to reserve judgement until we get some actual facts rather than speculation.

Overflow wrote: »

Eat your hat and swallow it, you were trying to come off all high an mighty based on research you did, that was based on the facts at that time, the situation is evolving and continuing to do so, so no-one can for sure tell what will be the final outcome of this disaster.

as i've already said, if i'm wrong about the outcome of all this i'll be the first to admit it, but i still see no reason for people to start panicking unnecessarily about this when there are far more important things to worry about in Japan at the moment, not least the massive loss of life and ongoing hardships of the survivors of the tsunami.

and none of this has anything to do with being high and mighty, it's got to do with trying to stop people from mindlessly swallowing the scaremongering bullsh1t produced by the main stream media surrounding the reactor problems in Fukushima and regurgitating it for more people to swallow.

thousands of people have already died and i'm sure more will die before this is all over, but not from nightmare nuclear scenario's dreamed up by the press, but from REAL problems like a lack of water, food, shelter & sanitation. if you want to worry about something, then make sure it's something that is a real, current threat to public health & safety in japan.

at the end of the day, a 40 year old nuclear power station well past it's use by date has survived an earthquake at least 5 times stronger than what it was ever designed to withstand, THEN a 10 metre tidal wave 3m higher than it was built to withstand shortly afterwards, not to mention many aftershocks of varying severity AND another earthquake in the following days and for the most part it's still standing, despite pretty much everything going wrong since then that could possibly go wrong in every nightmare scenario ever conceived.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I see the goalposts are moving again.

First of all it the line was that a meltdown could never happen.

Then it was that a meltdown could never happen except perhaps in the Soviet Union where they had some really crappy and badly operated reactors

Now its that a meltdown could never happen except perhaps in the former Soviet Union or Japan where they have some really crappy and badly operated reactors

dear oh dear, what on earth are you talking about?