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Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

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Comments

  • #392
    Salty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    More back-seat modding. Since you admitted yourself that in "the heat of the moment" you are incapable of reading posts correctly, I'm guessing the full time mods here aren't in fear for their jobs just yet.
    TBH I couldn't care less what you call me. It's just more evidence that you can't answer the questions posed logically.

    Eh, I misread 1 post. Hardly discredits my reading ability, in fairness.

    Back-seat modding? I'm just pointing out the obvious.

    And I'm not calling you anything, as you can blatantly see. I haven't engaged in derogatory name-calling. This isn't playschool.

    How is it evidence that I can't answer questions logically? That makes no sense.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I am quite definitively stating that a constant demand for a "counter claim" displays complete ignorance of the scientific method. That isn't really an "opinion" as such, in as much as 99.9999% of trained researchers would agree that it is sufficient to show a case is not proven on its own without having to propose an opposing theory.
    I have already said there is one reference provided which showed some relevance in that the second language tuition was a substitute for another subject. My request for further clarification or expansion on this second hand synopsis were not only not met, they were completely ignored.

    And how many people on here would you think are "trained researchers?" We are here to have friendly debate and discussion, not to learn the ins and outs of the scientific method.


  • #393
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Back-seat modding? I'm just pointing out the obvious.
    No, you are calling me a troll. Be a man about it and click the report button instead of the endless waffle if you think you've got something on me. Are you so naive as to think there aren't mods monitoring this thread anyway?
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    And I'm not calling you anything, as you can blatantly see. I haven't engaged in derogatory name-calling. This isn't playschool.
    You've called me a troll and refused to report it.
    You've said I called you an idiot, then admitted you cocked up and you haven't the simple decency to apologise for accusing me of an infractable offense that could see me banned.
    You're a real class act yourself.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    And how many people on here would you think are "trained researchers?" We are here to have friendly debate and discussion, not to learn the ins and outs of the scientific method.
    Fine, have a friendly conversation, whatever, but don't start your nonsense of pulling me up on data and references you haven't the first clue how to handle or interpret. If you stopped being so belligerent about things you end up admitting you can't understand your time here would be a lot more rewarding.
    And no, because you prefer chitter chatter to logical discourse doesn't mean I'm going to say you're right. Second language study remains unproven as superior to other subjects as a method of improving overall grades.


  • #394
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,222 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Are you so naive as to think there aren't mods monitoring this thread anyway?

    They're not monitoring this thread at all. Believe me, I'd know it if anyone with authority in this forum was even casting a quick glance at this thread in the last fortnight.


  • #395
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    They're not monitoring this thread at all. Believe me, I'd know it if anyone with authority in this forum was even casting a quick glance at this thread in the last fortnight.
    So you're a moderator who's been monitoring this thread for the last fortnight so you know for a fact that no moderator has been monitoring this thread for the last fortnight?;)


  • #396
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,222 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So you're a moderator who's been monitoring this thread for the last fortnight so you know for a fact that no moderator has been monitoring this thread for the last fortnight?;)

    *claps*

    Very clever, bravo.


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  • #397
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    *claps*

    Very clever, bravo.

    Apologies, some things are just too tempting to resist...:D


  • #398
    Salty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Fine, have a friendly conversation, whatever, but don't start your nonsense of pulling me up on data and references you haven't the first clue how to handle or interpret. If you stopped being so belligerent about things you end up admitting you can't understand your time here would be a lot more rewarding.
    And no, because you prefer chitter chatter to logical discourse doesn't mean I'm going to say you're right. Second language study remains unproven as superior to other subjects as a method of improving overall grades.

    Can you not see that you've missed the entire point of my initial post in relation to this? :(

    I'm not pulling you up on any data. I'm honestly not. Yet you keep saying that I'm not "capable" of understanding or handling things, without any grounds, may I add.

    If you were to look at my initial post, you would see that I was actually referring to people treating each other with a bit more decency, and engaging in discussion, rather than bickering. I picked that quote whereby you were stating that someone was "incapable" of understanding something. Just an example where the reason for the data was forgotten and the person's intelligence was being insulted.

    I'm not discrediting you or your data, but everyone's opinions are equal on here.

    Here's the initial post:

    Originally Posted by _meehan_ viewpost.gif
    In fairness, isn't the whole point of boards so that people can express their opinions and have friendly debate and discussion? I wasn't aware that one had to have "qualifications" of any description to do this. We are not participating in a scientific study here, we're just having a regular debate. Nobody is more intellectually superior to anyone else here. (And btw, I'm not saying that you think you're better than anyone else, but you're giving the impression that you do).


  • #399
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    If you were to look at my initial post, you would see that I was actually referring to people treating each other with a bit more decency, and engaging in discussion, rather than bickering. I picked that quote whereby you were stating that someone was "incapable" of understanding something. Just an example where the reason for the data was forgotten and the person's intelligence was being insulted.
    How many times does someone have to be corrected before it's safe to assume they simply cannot understand? I should have given up far earlier than now (which is what I am doing). He's reading absolutely anything he likes into his references, most of which are second hand synopses, not even abstracts.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    I'm not discrediting you or your data, but everyone's opinions are equal on here.
    All opinions are equal, correct.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    (And btw, I'm not saying that you think you're better than anyone else, but you're giving the impression that you do).[/I]
    Now, if I were to say "I'm not saying that you are thick, but you're giving the impression that you are", would that get me into trouble? Most definitely yes. Please don't think you're smart enough to get away with padding an ad hominem with some other waffle and nobody noticing.


  • #400
    Salty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    How many times does someone have to be corrected before it's safe to assume they simply cannot understand? I should have given up far earlier than now (which is what I am doing). He's reading absolutely anything he likes into his references, most of which are second hand synopses, not even abstracts.

    But rather than condescendingly saying it, why can't you just keep it to yourself and move on? It would save everybody a bit of grief.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    All opinions are equal, correct.

    Glad we agree on something.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Now, if I were to say "I'm not saying that you are thick, but you're giving the impression that you are", would that get me into trouble? Most definitely yes. Please don't think you're smart enough to get away with padding an ad hominem with some other waffle and nobody noticing.

    Stop telling me that I'm not "smart enough" or that I'm "incapable" of x y and z. Just stop. I'm trying to reach some civil ground with you here, and you're throwing it back in my face.:(

    You completely ignored everything that came before that part of the post. I'm not trying to insult you. I was covering my ass for the sentence that came immediately before that. Obviously went a bit pear-shaped, but I tried.:(


  • #401
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    But rather than condescendingly saying it, why can't you just keep it to yourself and move on? It would save everybody a bit of grief.
    Wha? Instead of showing that he's wrong I should "keep it to myself and move on"? Are you for real?
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Stop telling me that I'm not "smart enough" or that I'm "incapable" of x y and z. Just stop. I'm trying to reach some civil ground with you here, and you're throwing it back in my face.:(
    If you want to have a go at me ("I'm not saying you're X but your actions make you look like X", I mean, cop on) that's what'll happen.

    Anyway, miles OT now and the other guy who thought he had evidence can't provide anything useful it seems, so I think we're finished. (I am)
    Conclusions?
    1. Years of expensive compulsory Irish teaching has produced a depressingly small number of people who can speak Irish.
    2. Irish or some other second language study has no proven benefit above the same time spent doing another subject.
    3. The vast majority of "professional" Irish speakers are state (or indirectly) dependent and therefore of no economic benefit to Ireland.

    Leagan an Gaeilge agus beannacht dia ar an teanga.
    But don't force it on anybody else.


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  • #402
    Salty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    You completely ignored everything that came before that part of the post. I'm not trying to insult you. I was covering my ass for the sentence that came immediately before that. Obviously went a bit pear-shaped, but I tried.:(

    Thought I'd put it in bold since you completely ignored it last time. I don't want to end this on a bad note with you. Meet me half way here.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Wha? Instead of showing that he's wrong I should "keep it to myself and move on"? Are you for real?.

    There are more appropriate ways of objecting to people other than saying they're "incapable" of something. That's all I'm saying.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If you want to have a go at me ("I'm not saying you're X but your actions make you look like X", I mean, cop on) that's what'll happen.

    I'm not having a go at you. It's highlighted in bold above for you to have a look at. Stop jumping down my throat.:(
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Anyway, miles OT now and the other guy who thought he had evidence can't provide anything useful it seems, so I think we're finished. (I am)
    Conclusions?
    1. Years of expensive compulsory Irish teaching has produced a depressingly small number of people who can speak Irish.
    2. Irish or some other second language study has no proven benefit above the same time spent doing another subject.
    3. The vast majority of "professional" Irish speakers are state (or indirectly) dependent and therefore of no economic benefit to Ireland.

    Leagan an Gaeilge agus beannacht dia ar an teanga.
    But don't force it on anybody else.

    To add to your conclusions...

    Irish can't be made non-compulsory until there has been major reform in the way it is taught. Until then, the system will remain as it is.


  • #403
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Ado75 wrote: »
    Irish should be optional at all levels in the system.
    I'm glad to see that someone has come out with their true position. Your honesty is refreshing.
    It is of no value to those who will never use it anyway. Like me. I had no desire to learn Irish at school and yet was forced to endure thousands of hours of lessons in it.
    However, your hatred for Irish is not refreshing, it's just the same old bilge regurgitated yet again.
    Children should have the option of other languages at primary level.

    The laughable thing is that as a citizen of this "Republic" you can be discriminated against for a lack of Irish. Especially when it comes to public sector jobs. Sections of middle class Ireland use the language and the fact they send their kids to fee paying Irish schools
    I wonder if you would care to name these schools?
    as a tool to maintain a British type "Old School Tie" system of elitism. Those who say this is BS have their heads in the sand. These realities are ever present in places like UCD and TCD with the D4 set and carry on into society as a whole. When you are not born to these sections of society it is as plain as the nose on your face. I remember in school teachers speaking Irish in front of parents from working class areas as an in your face form of elitism.


  • #404
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    subedei wrote: »
    Im sorry but I have to comment on this one:

    Quote:
    It is worth pointing out that while there are two all-Irish schools in upper-class Ranelagh there are three in Tallaght, two in Clondalkin, two in Cabra, two in Ballymun and one, newly set-up in September, in Finglas... Indeed the salient sociological fact and one of the strengths of the gaelscoileanna movement is that it is rooted in every social class and is present in all parts of the country: urban and rural working class, middle class and upper class
    'Current attitudes to Irish' Ciarán Mac Murchaidh, Lecturer St Patricks College, Drumcondra, Dublin, 2008

    Also I would like to say that you are more strongly discriminated against if u dont use english in this country too.
    In fact, in the whole area of SE Co. Dublin from the city-centre to Killiney, there are only three primary Gaelscoils. There are also two Irish-language secondary schools in this same area, one for boys and one for girls.
    In other words, the area of the state where the language has the least presence, in terms of schools per head of population, is the richest, best-off area of the state.


  • #405
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If you think English and Irish are more different than English and Cantonese then you're in trouble! The data presented shows that the more different language benefits the student more. Are you seriously telling us that Cantonese is more like English than Irish is? Maybe your linguistics friends can help you out here...
    Isn't it funny that he accepts some quotes that are written here, and rejects others with the same (or in fact much higher) levels of proof.
    He reminds me of that 19th century scientist who claimed that women were stupider than men because they had smaller brains.
    However, when the scientist died, his brain was taken out and weighed - and found to be smaller than the average for a women!!!
    I bet dancealot's brain is smaller than a chimpanzee's!


  • #406
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    An gal gréine wrote: »
    In a report by Professor Vani Borooah of The University of Ulster and other leading academics, "Irish speakers have developed an advantage in the job market". Their cross-border analysis found Irish speakers to be better educated in the Republic's labour market.
    "In the North, the ratios of people who have Irish and are in permanent jobs or have degrees are broadly similar to the Republic".
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So in a country that has a large public sector employment dependence on the Irish language, having Irish helps to get a job? In a country where there are no requirements for Irish there is no advantage to Irish? Colour me utterly unsurprised.
    This data says everything about the Irish state propping up the Irish language and nothing about the actual academic benefits of it. If anything it says there is no benefit at all.

    Have you read the report?
    I have and it's a load of bullshít. It is impossible to understand, and his numbers frequently add up to over 100%, iirc.
    I was so surprised about that that I asked a friend who has a better understanding of statistics than I do to read it, and he found exactly the same as I did.
    You can forget that study, as a piece of academic work it is meaningless and worthless.


  • #407
    deirdremf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,447 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    LordSutch wrote: »
    You already know my theory on this deis go deo, but for the benefit of others I would like to say that Enda Kenny loves the Irish language, and as many of you well know "he used to teach it", he passionately wants Irish to thrive in the future, but he also recognises the futility of the failed teaching methods over the last last eighty years. Those of you who are against Fine Gael's plans, please take a step back for just one moment & think about how somebody from Germany, France, Spain, Italy, or Poland might perceive the last eighty years of compulsion!
    So you guys do irish all your school life, and many of you even pass leaving cert irish, but very few of you can speak it! (scratches head) :confused:

    Its FAILED, and its FAILED miserably they would say (as Sharon Ní Bheoláin recently said), and it is also fair to say that every single compulsive initiative has failed since compulsion was introduced, and this is where the Fine Gael argument cuts in. > Take the compulsion out of the leaving Cert, while putting in place a structure that will encourage students to want to learn the language, take out the compulsion (which has obviously FAILED) and replace it with a more friendly, progressive, less forceful attitude that will encourage the Irish language to be Loved (& not Loathed).
    Actually, although the general feeling about the Irish language policy in schools is that it has failed utterly, I strongly believe that this is not the case, and here is why.
    Irish is spoken all over the country nowadays, there is not a town in the country where the language is not alive and being used in various ways every day.
    There are few towns of any size in the Republic without a Gaelscoil (can anyone name one other than New Ross?). Most if not all Gaelscoil cater for some families who speak Irish in the home, as do many English-language schools. People all over the country watch TG4 and listen to Raidió na Gaeltachta, R. Fáilte, R. na Life and R. Rí-Rá. They read Foinse and Gaelscéal, as well as a number of on-line mags.
    So in fact, the schools have produced a large number of Irish speakers throughout the country. Of course, they could had produced more of them if the course was designed and taught better, but let's not underestimate what has been done.

    There have been failures in this state in relation to Irish, and in my opinion the greatest failure is that it did not ensure that the Gaeltacht was administered through Irish from the word go, with separate local government, health service etc. from already English-speaking areas.
    But that is the past, now we need to look to the future, and continue the good work being done at present.
    Let's just leave the trolls and the begrudgers behind. They have enough on their plates, all that hatred to deal with.
    It's up to them to deal with that, not us.


  • #408
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    deirdremf wrote: »
    Isn't it funny that he accepts some quotes that are written here, and rejects others with the same (or in fact much higher) levels of proof.
    Isn't it funny how you're incapable of seeing how learning a more familiar language is a good control for learning a less familiar language while no extra tuition is a poor control for elective extra tuition?
    Oh, sorry, you don't even know the difference.
    deirdremf wrote: »
    He reminds me of that 19th century scientist who claimed that women were stupider than men because they had smaller brains.
    However, when the scientist died, his brain was taken out and weighed - and found to be smaller than the average for a women!!!
    And you remind me of... someone who can't understand what a proper control group is in an experiment!!!
    deirdremf wrote: »
    I bet dancealot's brain is smaller than a chimpanzee's!
    With this nick joke you are really cracking me up.
    All a bit ironic for someone who has "mf" in their own name.:rolleyes:


  • #409
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    deirdremf wrote: »
    Have you read the report?
    I have and it's a load of bullshít. It is impossible to understand, and his numbers frequently add up to over 100%, iirc.
    I was so surprised about that that I asked a friend who has a better understanding of statistics than I do to read it, and he found exactly the same as I did.
    You can forget that study, as a piece of academic work it is meaningless and worthless.
    What were you saying about accepting one set of data and not accepting another? You lasted about 10 minutes there before blasting off your own toes. Well done.
    Anyway, even if that report is rubbish, it doesn't alter the fact that Irish is close to worthless as a skill that will get you anything other than a state-propped up useless job.


  • #410
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Ado75 wrote: »
    It is of no value to those who will never use it anyway. Like me. I had no desire to learn Irish at school and yet was forced to endure thousands of hours of lessons in it.
    deirdremf wrote: »
    However, your hatred for Irish is not refreshing, it's just the same old bilge regurgitated yet again.
    Pity he didn't say he hated Irish though, isn't it? Is this one of those things that's "obvious" even though you can't provide a single quote where it's said?


  • #411
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    deirdremf wrote: »
    There are few towns of any size in the Republic without a Gaelscoil (can anyone name one other than New Ross?). Most if not all Gaelscoil cater for some families who speak Irish in the home, as do many English-language schools. People all over the country watch TG4 and listen to Raidió na Gaeltachta, R. Fáilte, R. na Life and R. Rí-Rá. They read Foinse and Gaelscéal, as well as a number of on-line mags.

    There is a committee in New Ross trying to get a gaelscoil established, The Dept of Education has been dragging its feet as it has with the establishment of new Gaelscoileanna in several other places.
    Hopefully with the new government in place, this ridicules procrastination will end and people will be given the right to educate their kids through the language they want.


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  • #412
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Hopefully with the new government in place, this ridicules procrastination will end and people will be given the right to educate their kids through the language they want.
    The right to educate your kids in the subjects you want would be even better.


  • #413
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The right to educate your kids in the subjects you want would be even better.

    A Curriculum capable of educating kids would be better still


  • #414
    Salty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The right to educate your kids in the subjects you want would be even better.

    They can learn whatever subjects they want. The only difference is that they'll be taught through Irish.


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