Dirty Forehead Day

Ghetto Cornetto · 09-03-2011 03:52PM

Live and let live. I personally believe that people should be allowed to hold their faith in whatever higher power they want, be it God, Satan or their cat. Faith can be a remarkably grounding thing, and in some cases, it's all a lot of people have to get by with.

However - if you try to shove your beliefs down my throat, insist that mine are wrong or believe that people should be hurt for not complying to your faith, then you are an absolute cúnt of the highest order and no God will save you, whether they're actually there or not.

Coriolanus · 09-03-2011 03:59PM

El Siglo wrote: »

That's not my problem, if someone is so ardently opposed to any religious affiliation of a school then that's their perogative to send their child to a non-denominational school. The state provides the teachers, not the land or the school building.

Yes, and I've been in a situation where the parents have requested their son and/or daughter to not go to mass etc... for various reasons (usually Protestant/Jehovah's Witnesses).

Ever read the constitution?

These are the first lines from Bunreacht na hÉireann;

We're not a secular state in the same sense as France, there is religious tolerance and one should be very lucky because up until 1973 the RC still had that "special place" in said document. It can be one of two ways, deny all funding to schools run by religious orders and put it into the educate together schools or buy up the land owned by the church. Either way, everyone gets fucked because people get bent out of shape because of their new found atheism. And for the record, Religion in school is taught like History or Geography; it's a subject. Not a fucking brainwashing exercise.

I'm not religious in any way, but this is the reality and if it ain't broken, don't fix it. Especially when we're going to see more austerity come down the line, the quality of the education counts not whether their is a specific RC ethos. The time to secularise primary education was during the boom years, when land the land was available and prior to Michael Woods' deal with the Church (i.e. limiting Church liabilities to €128 million), the church would have offloaded a tonne of land on the cheap to the state.

Don't be ridiculous. There isn't a non denominational school within 25 miles of me for example. The department of planning turned down an app to assist in funding a new one because with four or five school, 4 cath 1 coi it was deemed unnecessary.
The attitude was very much a case of "sure why wouldn't you want the child educated in the states main religion" which I find infuriating.

Lumen · 09-03-2011 04:00PM

Ghetto Cornetto wrote: »

Live and let live....However - if you...insist that [my beliefs] are wrong...then you are an absolute cúnt of the highest order and no God will save you, whether they're actually there or not.

If someone was to insist that your beliefs about a football team were wrong, then does that also make them "an absolute cúnt of the highest order"?

If so, your assertion about "live and let live" attitude seems a bit ironic.

If not, what makes religious (or non-religious) convictions so worthy of protection when other beliefs are not?

Ghetto Cornetto · 09-03-2011 04:09PM

Lumen wrote: »

If someone was to insist that your beliefs about a football team were wrong, then does that also make them "an absolute cúnt of the highest order"?

If so, your assertion about "live and let live" attitude seems a bit ironic.

If not, what makes religious (or non-religious) convictions so worthy of protection when other beliefs are not?

I'm speaking in context of religious beliefs, because that's what this thread is about.

Like and rant about whatever football teams you want, I couldn't give a fúck. It's completely inconsequential to me.

Forcing religious beliefs on another is a completely different story to supporting a football team, and one I feel strongly about.

Copper23 · 09-03-2011 04:11PM

fryup wrote: »

Today is ash wednesday or as i call it ..dirty forehead day or spot the practicing catholic day.

Is it necessary to continue with this practice? and especially frog marching young school kids down to the local chapel to get it done whether they like it or not.

Will ireland ever be truly secular?

Oh here we go, Another "it's cool to believe in nothing" post.

Kids go because they are in catholic schools, some non-catholic schools give the option or else dont do it.

Believe me, if you think an Irish Catholic school is extreme these days, compared to many other countries, you really need to get out more.

RichieC · 09-03-2011 04:24PM

the one good thing I'll about it is... you could have gone on the piss last night then rolled out of bed at 10, stucks some sh*te from the ashtray on your head then rolled into work like the f*ck yea guy knowing they probably wouldn't open their mouths about it

)

Lumen · 09-03-2011 04:27PM

Ghetto Cornetto wrote: »

I'm speaking in context of religious beliefs, because that's what this thread is about.

Like and rant about whatever football teams you want, I couldn't give a fúck. It's completely inconsequential to me.

Forcing religious beliefs on another is a completely different story to supporting a football team, and one I feel strongly about.

I'm asking you to explain what you think the difference is, because I don't see it.

Plazaman · 09-03-2011 04:34PM

Everyone to their own I say, don't get the ash meself anymore since the stopped caring about the shape of the stamp. You used to be able to get a decent cross stamped onto the forehead, now its a squiggle, a circle, smudge anything but a cross. Dirty forehead day indeed, well said OP.

Even priests don't give a sh1t anymore (don't tell me there so busy they can't do a decent potato stamp). Slackers!

pragmatic1 · 09-03-2011 04:43PM

Load of cac bo.

Ghost Buster · 09-03-2011 05:03PM

twinQuins wrote: »

What's your point? I was explaining that to people who, evidently, didn't get it. Clearly you're not one of them so your response was unneeded.

Are you being sarcastic now?

Scanlas The 2nd · 09-03-2011 05:08PM

I'm an atheist and I'll be sending my daughter to the local Roman Catholic school mainly for the convenience. I do think schools should not teach any one particular religion ahead of others but I think some atheists make it out to be a bigger drama than it needs to be. Also I've heard of stories of kids feeling like they are missing out with communion for example. I say just tell your kid you don't have to believe what your teacher tells you about religion. You can make up your own mind if it's true or if it's nonsense.

My name is URL · 09-03-2011 05:14PM

For those of you harping on about the lack non-denominational schools, how many of you voted for FG? They have stated that they support the continued public funding of denominational schools despite pressure from the UN to create more non-denominational ones.

stimpson · 09-03-2011 05:22PM

From the Programme for Government:

Patronage
We will initiate a time-limited Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary Sector to allow all stakeholders including parents to engage in open debate on change of patronage in communities where it is appropriate and necessary. The Forum will have concise terms of reference and will sit for a maximum of 12 months.

The Forum’s recommendations will be drawn up into White Paper for consideration and implementation by Government to ensure that education system can provide sufficiently diverse number of schools, catering for all religions and none.

philstar · 09-03-2011 06:49PM

wyndham wrote: »

Wonder if Enda Kenny will have got his ashes when he goes to cellect his seal in The Aras? I think yes.

well he didn't, unlike good ol' Bertie who made sure everyone saw his holy forehead

El Siglo · 09-03-2011 06:53PM

Lumen wrote: »

I don't have a history book to hand, and this is the internet. Feel free to provide better sources.

For now, "Ireland: 1798-1998" by a chap called Alvin Jackson, however I am sure there history of the Irish education system books available, this is the one that I happen to remember after a few years of not doing history.

OK, thanks for the history lesson, however I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. If the State has provided such support to RC schools (including such critical aspects as paying to build them) and other direct support to the Church (e.g. bailing them out on abuse compensation) then I don't really see the moral argument for letting the Church keep them. If it is constitutionally acceptable to nationalise private assets through NAMA it is surely possible to nationalise private assets of the Church supported in various ways by the State over centuries.

The state pays the teachers, the state provides the teachers. However, the state doesn't educate the teachers or run the schools directly. The buildings, land etc... that schools occupy, which are denominational schools were or in most cases still are owned by the Church, in which case the Church tends to have given up on the day-to-day running of the schools (no Holy Ghost Fathers or Christian Brothers teaching any more, actual qualified teachers). In this case, because the Church has provided the land etc... they still have some input at the BOM level, mainly because they still own the school. The state supports all schools the same way, providing and paying teachers. The state didn't bail the Church out, that was a bad deal by Michael Woods, take it up with him or the current Minister for Education. You can't compare valueless properties from a housing bubble to schools that are owned by the Church and to nationalise private assets without consent would have the state wind up in the Supreme Court and would set an incredibly dangerous precedent that it could nationalise any private asset (like a dictatorship). So unless you buy out the Church's share of the schools or you buy a majority or you have them sign them over to the state for free, it will cost the tax payer money. Either in buying the school or buying it to be directly run by say the VEC. There isn't any money, you can't take someone else' stuff (even if it is the RC Church).

I don't like the idea of the state not taking the responsibility of running schools in a secular fashion, however I don't want to pay for something just to satisfy a minority when we don't even have proper school buildings or we have overcrowding. Easy for people to piss and moan over something so trivial as denominational, evil Catholic Church. Yet, what are people to say about rat infested schools, schools with poor sanitation, high heating costs, dilapidated prefabs etc... Those are the real issues that we should be getting on with. Children will become adults and can make up their own minds on what they believe, we all have or we wouldn't have atheists or indeed theists for that matter. However, if I was sending a wain to school I wouldn't care if it was run by the Church or not, but whether it had good facilities that I would feel the child would be safe in.

Nevore wrote:

Don't be ridiculous. There isn't a non denominational school within 25 miles of me for example. The department of planning turned down an app to assist in funding a new one because with four or five school, 4 cath 1 coi it was deemed unnecessary.
The attitude was very much a case of "sure why wouldn't you want the child educated in the states main religion" which I find infuriating.

An Bord Pleanala is there for a reason, again count yourself lucky that the Republic has third party appeal. I've worked with planners for a while, they don't care about religion etc... all the planner saw was; catchment area, population, no. of schools, grand, no need for a new school here. Not everything is about religion.

Regardless of the arguments I've discussed about schools here, the op started a flaming thread hoping to stoke the usual arguments; 'RC Church full of paedos and atheism is the answer to everything and if you're not an atheist you're a backward idiot'. Again, I didn't see a thread on the annual "Muslim Squash fest in Mecca" or the "Dip in the River Shit in India". It's peoples' religious beliefs, show a bit of tolerance and if you've nothing nice to say about somebody or in this case something, say nothing at all.:pac:

Honey-ec · 09-03-2011 07:02PM

Kimono-Girl wrote: »

if they attend a catholic school then they like it otherwise they would be in a non denominational school....

Yes, because when I was 4 and getting ready to start school, I was allowed to choose the type of school I went to...

Morag · 09-03-2011 07:19PM

The state doesn't just pay for the teachers, is pays a grant per child for the running of the school, the adminstration costs and bills.

goose2005 · 09-03-2011 07:33PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Good story and all, but again it doesn't change the fact that you might have to live by the particular rules of the school you have chosen. Similarly if you choose a particular school, you don't usually have a choice on the type or colour of the uniform etc...

You weigh up your options and the pros and cons of each and make a decision but if you send a child to a RC school, whether the child is raised as a practicing catholic or not, the child may have to receive ashes and or partake in other catholic practices like prayers etc... Them's the choices. No point in complaining about it - btw I am not saying you specifically are complaining about it.

There is a great difference between uniform choice and religious education. I mean, if 90% of irish schools were communist "ethos" even though only a minority of Irish people were actually communists, would you be OK with a portrait of Marx in every classroom, mandatory lessons in Leninist theory, etc.? Or would you think, maybe it's about time to stop this nonsense?

wyndham · 09-03-2011 07:41PM

El Siglo wrote: »

For now, "Ireland: 1798-1998" by a chap called Alvin Jackson, however I am sure there history of the Irish education system books available, this is the one that I happen to remember after a few years of not doing history.

The state pays the teachers, the state provides the teachers. However, the state doesn't educate the teachers or run the schools directly. The buildings, land etc... that schools occupy, which are denominational schools were or in most cases still are owned by the Church, in which case the Church tends to have given up on the day-to-day running of the schools (no Holy Ghost Fathers or Christian Brothers teaching any more, actual qualified teachers). In this case, because the Church has provided the land etc... they still have some input at the BOM level, mainly because they still own the school. The state supports all schools the same way, providing and paying teachers. The state didn't bail the Church out, that was a bad deal by Michael Woods, take it up with him or the current Minister for Education. You can't compare valueless properties from a housing bubble to schools that are owned by the Church and to nationalise private assets without consent would have the state wind up in the Supreme Court and would set an incredibly dangerous precedent that it could nationalise any private asset (like a dictatorship). So unless you buy out the Church's share of the schools or you buy a majority or you have them sign them over to the state for free, it will cost the tax payer money. Either in buying the school or buying it to be directly run by say the VEC. There isn't any money, you can't take someone else' stuff (even if it is the RC Church).

I don't like the idea of the state not taking the responsibility of running schools in a secular fashion, however I don't want to pay for something just to satisfy a minority when we don't even have proper school buildings or we have overcrowding. Easy for people to piss and moan over something so trivial as denominational, evil Catholic Church. Yet, what are people to say about rat infested schools, schools with poor sanitation, high heating costs, dilapidated prefabs etc... Those are the real issues that we should be getting on with. Children will become adults and can make up their own minds on what they believe, we all have or we wouldn't have atheists or indeed theists for that matter. However, if I was sending a wain to school I wouldn't care if it was run by the Church or not, but whether it had good facilities that I would feel the child would be safe in.

An Bord Pleanala is there for a reason, again count yourself lucky that the Republic has third party appeal. I've worked with planners for a while, they don't care about religion etc... all the planner saw was; catchment area, population, no. of schools, grand, no need for a new school here. Not everything is about religion.

Regardless of the arguments I've discussed about schools here, the op started a flaming thread hoping to stoke the usual arguments; 'RC Church full of paedos and atheism is the answer to everything and if you're not an atheist you're a backward idiot'. Again, I didn't see a thread on the annual "Muslim Squash fest in Mecca" or the "Dip in the River Shit in India". It's peoples' religious beliefs, show a bit of tolerance and if you've nothing nice to say about somebody or in this case something, say nothing at all.:pac:

TLDR- That would be an ecumenical matter.

El Siglo · 09-03-2011 08:19PM

wyndham wrote: »

TLDR- That would be an ecumenical matter.

Yes!:D

Aoifey! · 09-03-2011 08:52PM

fryup wrote: »

Is it necessary to continue with this practice? and especially frog marching young school kids down to the local chapel to get it done whether they like it or not.

The priest used to come to my school. No frog march for me :cool:

Ghost Buster · 09-03-2011 08:55PM

My name is URL wrote: »

For those of you harping on about the lack non-denominational schools, how many of you voted for FG? They have stated that they support the continued public funding of denominational schools despite pressure from the UN to create more non-denominational ones.

Yup. Because the topic of education being discussed here was also the primary influence for everybodys voting choice. eh?
I reckon those who voted FG (Not me BTW) may have had other issues motivating their choice of ballot.

bmarley · 09-03-2011 08:59PM

Most of the kids love to get out of school for an hour...and the thrill of the dusting...once I got it in my eyes

LambsEye · 09-03-2011 09:09PM

I used to love the taste of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. I couldn't WAIT to get a go offa communion. Then I stopped believing in the Big Guy and my stupid "conscience" wouldn't get me go up and get communion the odd time I was in mass.

I used to try recreate it with ice-cream wafers but they don't taste the same. There was something about that chalky old man taste.

Delicious, delicious religion.

My name is URL · 09-03-2011 09:09PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Yup. Because the topic of education being discussed here was also the primary influence for everybodys voting choice. eh?
I reckon those who voted FG (Not me BTW) may have had other issues motivating their choice of ballot.

Of course.. everyone would have their own reasons for voting for a staunch Christian Democratic party, or any other. Fact is though, that the same people moaning about the ties between church and state have gone and elected a party which seems reluctant to cut those ties.

Lumen · 09-03-2011 09:09PM

El Siglo wrote: »

The state didn't bail the Church out, that was a bad deal by Michael Woods, take it up with him or the current Minister for Education.

<reads Wikipedia, gets slightly cross, breathes deeply>

Just on this one point (not to be argumentative, just because it's the only bit I don't understand) Woods signed the deal as Minister for Education, and is therefore "the State" as I understand it. Is there some definition of the State that excludes the government?

Now, back to being cross....

"In 2003 after brokering the deal, Woods claimed his strong Catholic faith made him the most suitable person to negotiate the deal."

Holy fúck, how the hell is it deemed morally acceptable for someone educated in a Christian Brothers school and then declaring "strong Catholic faith" to be "negotiating" with the Church on limiting their liability? It screams conflict of interest.

I'm really not a militant atheist, but that one example neatly encapsulates everything that is wrong with the Church's involvement in education. Get them when they're young, and they'll sort you out later when the shít hits the fan.

Ghost Buster · 09-03-2011 09:14PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Of course.. everyone would have their own reasons for voting for a staunch Christian Democratic party, or any other. Fact is though, that the same people moaning about the ties between church and state have gone and elected a party which seems reluctant to cut those ties.

You know how people here, with makey uppey names and secret identitys voted?
CIA?
Big Brother
MI5?
WHO ARE YOU!!!

Poor... very poor...

iguana · 09-03-2011 09:15PM

El Siglo wrote: »

if someone is so ardently opposed to any religious affiliation of a school then that's their perogative to send their child to a non-denominational school.

It really isn't. There is ONE non-denominational school in Ireland. It consists of 4 hired rooms, can take about a maximum of 60 students, is fee paying and costs several thousands a year per child, adheres to Montessori methods rather than the national curriculum, gets not one single cent of state money and can not accommodate students older than 12.

Prerogative means "right given by the state" and sending your child to a non-denominational school in Ireland is about as far from a that as you can get.

Ghost Buster · 09-03-2011 09:17PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Of course.. everyone would have their own reasons for voting for a staunch Christian Democratic party, or any other. Fact is though, that the same people moaning about the ties between church and state have gone and elected a party which seems reluctant to cut those ties.

or... and this is possible even more of a stretch than your arguement...
perhaps they voted for , as an example, FG's economic strategy as the country is in a small spot of bother there...
or
They voted FG because they arent FF

or.....
Nah. Its all too crazy:pac:

strobe · 09-03-2011 09:32PM

iguana wrote: »

It really isn't. There is ONE non-denominational school in Ireland. It consists of 4 hired rooms, can take about a maximum of 60 students, is fee paying and costs several thousands a year per child, adheres to Montessori methods rather than the national curriculum, gets not one single cent of state money and can not accommodate students older than 12.

Pretty sure there is at least 52 non-denominational schools in Ireland.

(still nowhere near enough though. All state funded schools should be non-denominational schools in my opinion, but let's not start making things up.)

Dirty Forehead Day

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