Dirty Forehead Day

fryup

Today is ash wednesday or as i call it ..dirty forehead day or spot the practicing catholic day.

Is it necessary to continue with this practice? and especially frog marching young school kids down to the local chapel to get it done whether they like it or not.

Will ireland ever be truly secular?

antodeco

fryup wrote: »

frog marching young school kids down to the local chapel to get it done whether they like it or not.

I have never once seen a frog march!

stovelid

fryup wrote: »

or spot the practicing catholic day.

How tolerant.

Are you 16?

Abi

It's a load of bollocks.

phasers

The majority of schools in ireland are run by the church. Until this changes then it'll keep happening! It was always nice to get out of class for 10 minutes though, I remember by secondary school we all used to refuse to get it.


(Also as a side note it's my birthday today and if I get one more "Happy Ash Wednesday" text I'm going to kill someone, not really relevant but it's pissing me off)

antodeco

phasers wrote: »

The majority of schools in ireland are run by the church. Until this changes then it'll keep happening! It was always nice to get out of class for 10 minutes though, I remember by secondary school we all used to refuse to get it.


(Also as a side note it's my birthday today and if I get one more "Happy Ash Wednesday" text I'm going to kill someone, not really relevant but it's pissing me off)

Happy Ash Wednesday

/Nominates Dave McSavage

Badgermonkey

I think it's cute, makes folks look like they've been down a tiny little mine.

chin_grin

I think it's a symbolic mental "Accident. Black Spot" for the sheeple.

Kimono-Girl

fryup wrote: »

Is it necessary to continue with this practice? and especially frog marching young school kids down to the local chapel to get it done whether they like it or not.

if they attend a catholic school then they like it otherwise they would be in a non denominational school....

Deus Ex Machina

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Standard Toaster

It used to be called 'dirty bum day' back in my time in the Christian brother school.


/rocks back and forth

wyndham

Wonder if Enda Kenny will have got his ashes when he goes to cellect his seal in The Aras? I think yes.

antodeco

Hot Ash on my forehead you say?

Lumen

Another evening of de-programming the sprogs awaits.

Uriel.

fryup wrote: »

Is it necessary to continue with this practice?

Yes it is necessary to continue it if you are a practicing Catholic and you are that way inclined.

And it really shouldn't matter a damn to you or anyone else if people follow this practice.

As regards to school children in Catholic schools... well.. When in Rome etc.. as a previous poster said, go to a non-catholic school.

hardCopy

wyndham wrote: »

Wonder if Enda Kenny will have got his ashes when he goes to cellect his seal in The Aras? I think yes.

Mos Def!

prinz

fryup wrote: »

Today is ash wednesday or as i call it ..dirty forehead day or spot the practicing catholic day.
Is it necessary to continue with this practice? and especially frog marching young school kids down to the local chapel to get it done whether they like it or not. Will ireland ever be truly secular?

Is it necessary for you to continue with this practice? Are you a practicing Catholic? Might have answered your own question there chief.

sbsquarepants

fryup wrote: »

Today is ash wednesday or as i call it ..dirty forehead day or spot the practicing catholic day.

Is it necessary to continue with this practice? and especially frog marching young school kids down to the local chapel to get it done whether they like it or not.

Will ireland ever be truly secular?

It's not brainwashing, it's education!:)

And as for being secular. Iwouldn't hold my breath if i was you, but at least we're heading in the righ direction.

El Siglo

There's practicing Catholics getting ashes on Ash Wednesday... Shock horror. It doesn't matter if Ireland was completely secular or not, it's peoples' religion. Why should it matter to you op what other people do? As has been said before, RC runs ca. 90% of the primary schools, if you don't want your child to be a practicing Catholic don't send them to an RC school.

aDeener

El Siglo wrote: »

There's practicing Catholics getting ashes on Ash Wednesday... Shock horror. It doesn't matter if Ireland was completely secular or not, it's peoples' religion. Why should it matter to you op what other people do? As has been said before, RC runs ca. 90% of the primary schools, if you don't want your child to be a practicing Catholic don't send them to an RC school.

but, but such a post riddled with common sense does not suit many boardsies obsession with being anti church rabble rabble!!

sbsquarepants

El Siglo wrote: »

As has been said before, RC runs ca. 90% of the primary schools, if you don't want your child to be a practicing Catholic don't send them to an RC school.

What percentage of schools do they fund?

El Siglo

sbsquarepants wrote: »

What percentage of schools do they fund?

Don't know, state funds them but nearly all of them are under the auspices of one order or another. It goes back to the foundation of the state; government broke, paying England for our own war of independence, civil war split the country, Church was running most of the schools and hospitals by then anyway. The Church doesn't necessarily cover the costs of teachers etc... but it does in a lot of cases own the land on which the school is built and where the religious order has given up on the day-to-day functions of the school most PPs will be on the board of management. It's not an ideal system but I can't see it changing for pragmatic reasons (i.e. government is completely fucked financially).

Lumen

Uriel. wrote: »

As regards to school children in Catholic schools... well.. When in Rome etc.. as a previous poster said, go to a non-catholic school.

Sending kids to school isn't like shopping on the internet; you can't always find the exact combination of product features you want. There are practical constraints like distance, class sizes, scumbag population etc.

I sent my kids to an RC primary school because it's a decent school that's close enough that they can walk to school and back. We also visited the next nearest, a non-denominational school, but it's under some sort of special measures programme and I was a bit put off by the rat poison canister under the principal's desk.

The brainwashing is fairly lightweight and easily rinsed out and provides some good conversation starters.

Probably about a third of the class is non-Catholic. I've no idea what they do with those kids - I guess I'll find out tonight.

El Siglo

It's funny, op starts a thread on "Dirty Forehead Day", I wonder how quick a thread would last on "Daytime Muslim Starvation Day"...

fryup

El Siglo wrote: »

As has been said before, RC runs ca. 90% of the primary schools, if you don't want your child to be a practicing Catholic don't send them to an RC school.

Yes but some parents have no choice but to send their kids to the local RC school (financial, location reasons etc).

And anyway it should be up to the parents themselves to bring their own kids to the local chapel on ash wednesday.

my bottom line.. is all state funded schools should be secular as it is in France, religion should be taught outside school hours

Wait do they bring the kids during school hours?
I went to a catholic primary and we didnt, anyone who wanted it went themselves before or after school

Pompey Magnus

antodeco wrote: »

I have never once seen a frog march!

Here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJYi78WfRF0

Gummy Panda

phasers wrote: »

The majority of schools in ireland are run by the church. Until this changes then it'll keep happening! It was always nice to get out of class for 10 minutes though, I remember by secondary school we all used to refuse to get it.


(Also as a side note it's my birthday today and if I get one more "Happy Ash Wednesday" text I'm going to kill someone, not really relevant but it's pissing me off)

happy birthday

I got you a cake

prinz

bluewolf wrote: »

Wait do they bring the kids during school hours?
I went to a catholic primary and we didnt, anyone who wanted it went themselves before or after school

Funnily enough, I don't remember ever being "frogmarched" from school for Ash Wednesday either.

Uriel.

Lumen wrote: »

Sending kids to school isn't like shopping on the internet; you can't always find the exact combination of product features you want. There are practical constraints like distance, class sizes, scumbag population etc.

I sent my kids to an RC primary school because it's a decent school that's close enough that they can walk to school and back. We also visited the next nearest, a non-denominational school, but it's under some sort of special measures programme and I was a bit put off by the rat poison canister under the principal's desk.

The brainwashing is fairly lightweight and easily rinsed out and provides some good conversation starters.

Probably about a third of the class is non-Catholic. I've no idea what they do with those kids - I guess I'll find out tonight.

Good story and all, but again it doesn't change the fact that you might have to live by the particular rules of the school you have chosen. Similarly if you choose a particular school, you don't usually have a choice on the type or colour of the uniform etc...

You weigh up your options and the pros and cons of each and make a decision but if you send a child to a RC school, whether the child is raised as a practicing catholic or not, the child may have to receive ashes and or partake in other catholic practices like prayers etc... Them's the choices. No point in complaining about it - btw I am not saying you specifically are complaining about it.

[edit] Incidentally, to the best of my memory, when in primary school, the whole class generally went to receive ashes as a matter of course but in secondary school the facility was made available and up to the students to decide whether they wanted to receive the ashes or not - I think it was encouraged (as would be expected) but never enforced. Both schools were RC.

Humans eh!

Ming might turn up in the Dail with a nodge on his forehead.


Oh sorry I thought you said Hash Wednesday ......:pac:

Lumen

Uriel. wrote: »

Good story and all, but again it doesn't change the fact that you might have to live by the particular rules of the school you have chosen. Similarly if you choose a particular school, you don't usually have a choice on the type or colour of the uniform etc...

You weigh up your options and the pros and cons of each and make a decision but if you send a child to a RC school, whether the child is raised as a practicing catholic or not, the child may have to receive ashes and or partake in other catholic practices like prayers etc... Them's the choices. No point in complaining about it - btw I am not saying you specifically are complaining about it.

I have a right to complain about whatever the hell I like because the school is funded by my taxes.

However, I'm a pragmatist and I respect that other parents might feel differently and you can't please everyone.

I do think that since RC schools effectively have a duty to educate kids of various (and no) denominations that they should make an effort to make each child feel that their beliefs (or those of their parents) are respected, and not just marginalise them. For instance, doing something fun with the Muslims, atheists etc around first communion time so that people do not feel pressured into hypocrisy.

El Siglo

fryup wrote: »

Yes but some parents have no choice but to send their kids to the local RC school (financial, location reasons etc).

That's not my problem, if someone is so ardently opposed to any religious affiliation of a school then that's their perogative to send their child to a non-denominational school. The state provides the teachers, not the land or the school building.

And anyway it should be up to the parents themselves to bring their own kids to the local chapel on ash wednesday.

Yes, and I've been in a situation where the parents have requested their son and/or daughter to not go to mass etc... for various reasons (usually Protestant/Jehovah's Witnesses).

my bottom line.. is all state funded schools should be secular as it is in France, religion should be taught outside school hours

Ever read the constitution?

These are the first lines from Bunreacht na hÉireann;

CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,

We, the people of Éire,

Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,

And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,

Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

We're not a secular state in the same sense as France, there is religious tolerance and one should be very lucky because up until 1973 the RC still had that "special place" in said document. It can be one of two ways, deny all funding to schools run by religious orders and put it into the educate together schools or buy up the land owned by the church. Either way, everyone gets fucked because people get bent out of shape because of their new found atheism. And for the record, Religion in school is taught like History or Geography; it's a subject. Not a fucking brainwashing exercise.

I'm not religious in any way, but this is the reality and if it ain't broken, don't fix it. Especially when we're going to see more austerity come down the line, the quality of the education counts not whether their is a specific RC ethos. The time to secularise primary education was during the boom years, when land the land was available and prior to Michael Woods' deal with the Church (i.e. limiting Church liabilities to €128 million), the church would have offloaded a tonne of land on the cheap to the state.

Lumen

El Siglo wrote: »

The state provides the teachers, not the land or the school building.

How did the Church come to own those assets?

Uriel.

Lumen wrote: »

I have a right to complain about whatever the hell I like because the school is funded by my taxes.

However, I'm a pragmatist and I respect that other parents might feel differently and you can't please everyone.

I do think that since RC schools effectively have a duty to educate kids of various (and no) denominations that they should make an effort to make each child feel that their beliefs (or those of their parents) are respected, and not just marginalise them. For instance, doing something fun with the Muslims, atheists etc around first communion time so that people do not feel pressured into hypocrisy.

That's fair enough, you may not have seen my additional edit before you posted. I think most RC schools these days do leave it as a choice rather than compulsory

Kiera

I don’t have a religion but I’m not gonna blast others for practising theirs. Makes people like you look very childish and ignorant.

stovelid

I'm an atheist and as far as belief in secular things go, I'm involved locally with Educate Together. I'm also old enough to have been involved in the pro-choice campaigns of the 90s. While I disllike the Catholic church as an organisation, disrespecting people's faith (a lot of which goes on here) is smug and intolerant. As long as they don't interfere with other people or justify abhorrent actions, the beef should be with the organisation and actual culprits, not the ordinary believers.

I know somebody who wouldn't go to the church wedding of a friend in order to assert their atheist principles and thought they should grow up, to be honest.

fryup

fryup wrote: »

my bottom line.. is all state funded schools should be secular as it is in France, religion should be taught outside school hours

El Siglo wrote: »

Ever read the constitution?

well its high time it was changed

and also who wrote the constitution > a conservative catholic :cool:

El Siglo wrote: »

We're not a secular state in the same sense as France, there is religious tolerance .

really

El Siglo wrote: »

And for the record, Religion in school is taught like History or Geography; it's a subject. Not a fucking brainwashing exercise.

well in the early days of the state it was

Dr. Greenthumb

Lumen wrote: »

I have a right to complain about whatever the hell I like because the school is funded by my taxes.

You must have a massive tax bill!! I hope the other few hundred parents thank you!

Lumen

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

You must have a massive tax bill!! I hope the other few hundred parents thank you!

When I told them I was an atheist they named a toilet block after me.

El Siglo

Lumen wrote: »

How did the Church come to own those assets?

They bought the land during the 19th and early 20th Century I'd imagine, you know after the whole Catholic Relief Act and Famine... Have you considered maybe reading a history book on the matter? They hardly stole the land now.

fryup wrote: »

well its high time it was changed

and also who wrote the constitution > a conservative catholic :cool:

And it's been changed a hell of a lot since then, so what's the problem? Even the Proclamation has a reference to God as well, which Connolly didn't seem to have a beef with since he signed it, and he wouldn't be what one might consider a practicing Catholic. Sure you can't be a King/Queen of England if you're in the RC, the US replaced "e pluribus unum" ("out of many, one") with "In God we trust". We're not alone on this and it doesn't make us some degenerate, backward country.

really

Yes? Do you see bible nut jobs here? If you think the South is bad, come up to Northern Ireland where our Environment Minister is a Young Earth Creationist.

well in the early days of the state it was

And in the early days of the state, England was to blame for all our troubles, Collins or deValera were God depending on who you spoke to. That was then, this is now. Religion is a school subject taught in the Leaving Cert, nothing more, nothing less.

PrincessLola

It sucks that the vast majority of schools are still catholic, but at least there is more of a choice nowadays with educate together and all.

Ghost Buster

Do i think the Op is off the mark?
Yup.
Does being a secular state mean folk wont or wont be able to get ash on their noggin?
No and neither should it.
But please stop trotting out the line about 'if you dont like it go to a secular school'.
There simply are not enough of them.
Catholic schools are state funded and supply of Rc schools outstrips demand and i dont just mean in relation to the number of catholics on the census. Many catholics see that taking up education time with faith in state run schools is wrong and would have no objection to removing religion from schools. Heck even the Bishops see this.
Faith in my opinion should be extra curricular.

mathie

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056202121

The ironing is delicious.

keano_afc

What we need on boards is a forum or fora to deal with religious issues.

twinQuins

keano_afc wrote: »

What we need on boards is a forum or fora to deal with religious issues.

We have a number of them. We also have forums for politics, news items and various other (almost or even all?) issues that are posted to After Hours.

Ghost Buster

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's not brainwashing, it's education!:)

And as for being secular. Iwouldn't hold my breath if i was you, but at least we're heading in the righ direction.

Hard to believe but Ireland is officially secular. In the same way that George Michael was straight in the Wham days.

keano_afc

twinQuins wrote: »

We have a number of them. We also have forums for politics, news items and various other (almost or even all?) issues that are posted to After Hours.

sar·casm
   /ˈsɑrkæzəm/ Show Spelled[sahr-kaz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2.
a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.

fakearms123

I remember back in the school days on Ash Wednesday when they would take us out of class for a few minutes and keeping in mind I was in an all boys school, the lads would walk in one by one and we'd all assess who had the biggest blotch of ash on our foreheads and praise the lad who had the biggest, then turn to the lad who has the smallest and make fun of him...

things haven't really changed since then


/weeps uncontrollably

Lumen

El Siglo wrote: »

They bought the land during the 19th and early 20th Century I'd imagine, you know after the whole Catholic Relief Act and Famine... Have you considered maybe reading a history book on the matter? They hardly stole the land now.

I looked for some history online but didn't find much. However, from here...

In 1831 primary education came to Ireland. This meant that children no longer had to attend fee paying schools or charity schools. Instead they could attend a local primary school. A National Board of Education was set up and a national system of primary schools began in Ireland. The government gave a grant which paid for almost all of the building costs of new national schools as well as the salaries of the teachers. Any area that wanted a school had to apply for a grant to build it.

So I don't think it's quite as simple as "the Church rightfully owns them", if that's what you were suggesting, and historically the Church and State have been so intertwined I'm not even sure it's possible to seperate one set of interests from the other.

And since even the Church now believes that it should hand over ownership, it's a bit of a moot point.

twinQuins

keano_afc wrote: »

sar·casm
   /ˈsɑrkæzəm/ Show Spelled[sahr-kaz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2.
a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.

Are you also aware that tone isn't conveyed well through text?