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Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

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    #272
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You still don't know how this works, do you?
    You've made a claim. You have failed to prove it. I do not have to prove the converse for your claim to remain unproven. I'll give up trying to explain to you how to prove that the second language is the causative factor and take it you eithercan't understand or just don't want to know.
    If kids' overall academic achievements are no better whether they take business or Irish is also irrelevant, as business is useful. Irish is not. Still no case for Irish.

    You have ALSO made a claim - that being that second language doesn't improve overall academic grades. I'm simply asking you to prove that this counter-claim to the pro-language arguments is true.

    You have also ignored all references to reform of the curriculum. Irish cannot be demoted to a non-compulsory subject if reform doesn't occur.
    I have asked before, what are your opinions on reform? Surely you're not against improving the language?


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    #273
    irish pavee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭irish pavee


    SeanMadd wrote: »
    Just saw this:
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gf8jm-TLQPjLWIxuJak29bUDxoQA?docId=N0602721297099463953A

    Quite frankly I'm kind of saddened by that fact. I really wish Irish was more spoken in Ireland, and although I'm not great myself, I think that everyone should be learning our native language.

    Thoughts?

    its just like my languageit all most gone cant


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    #274
    Ado75
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Ado75


    Irish should be optional at all levels in the system. It is of no value to those who will never use it anyway. Like me. I had no desire to learn Irish at school and yet was forced to endure thousands of hours of lessons in it. Children should have the option of other languages at primary level.

    The laughable thing is that as a citizen of this "Republic" you can be discriminated against for a lack of Irish. Especially when it comes to public sector jobs. Sections of middle class Ireland use the language and the fact they send their kids to fee paying Irish schools as a tool to maintain a British type "Old School Tie" system of elitism. Those who say this is BS have their heads in the sand. These realities are ever present in places like UCD and TCD with the D4 set and carry on into society as a whole. When you are not born to these sections of society it is as plain as the nose on your face. I remember in school teachers speaking Irish in front of parents from working class areas as an in your face form of elitism.


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    #275
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    You have ALSO made a claim - that being that second language doesn't improve overall academic grades. I'm simply asking you to prove that this counter-claim to the pro-language arguments is true.
    In the absence of any proof there is an effect, I will assume there is no effect.
    I do not need to prove anything to be perfectly logical in assuming your unproven claim can be ignored.
    Are you a Christian fundamentalist by any chance? They love to pull that "you can't prove it's not there" nonsense.:rolleyes:


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    #276
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Ado75 wrote: »
    Irish should be optional at all levels in the system. It is of no value to those who will never use it anyway. Like me. I had no desire to learn Irish at school and yet was forced to endure thousands of hours of lessons in it. Children should have the option of other languages at primary level.

    The laughable thing is that as a citizen of this "Republic" you can be discriminated against for a lack of Irish. Especially when it comes to public sector jobs. Sections of middle class Ireland use the language and the fact they send their kids to fee paying Irish schools as a tool to maintain a British type "Old School Tie" system of elitism. Those who say this is BS have their heads in the sand. These realities are ever present in places like UCD and TCD with the D4 set and carry on into society as a whole. When you are not born to these sections of society it is as plain as the nose on your face. I remember in school teachers speaking Irish in front of parents from working class areas as an in your face form of elitism.

    When you were 4 or 5 years old starting primary school, did you have a desire to learn any other language?

    Didn't realise that there were fee-paying Irish schools in Dublin. There are none in Cork, either primary or secondary level. And I doubt there are fee-paying Gaelscoileanna in any other part of the country other than Dublin. Things are different outside The Pale, believe it or not.


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    #277
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    I have asked before, what are your opinions on reform? Surely you're not against improving the language?
    I couldn't give a hoot about reform. If you want to speak Irish, Swahili, Klingon whatever good luck to you. What relevance does that have to forcing people to learn a useless subject?


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    #278
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    When you were 4 or 5 years old starting primary school, did you have a desire to learn any other language?
    When I was 10 I wanted to be a Jedi, but there were no classes provided in the school I went to.:(


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    #279
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    In the absence of any proof there is an effect, I will assume there is no effect.
    I do not need to prove anything to be perfectly logical in assuming your unproven claim can be ignored.
    Are you a Christian fundamentalist by any chance? They love to pull that "you can't prove it's not there" nonsense.:rolleyes:


    I'm a regular 6th year student. Stop rubbishing my opinions. You're constantly asking people to supply you with your precious data. They provide it, ask you to provide yours with your counter-claims, and all of a sudden you have none, as indicated above.

    Reform of the curriculum would make it more accessible to students. If it was taught in the same way as French or German, it would be a completely different situation. It is completely relevant. In many secondary schools, French is the only European language available from 1st to 6th year. It has to be undertaken by students who want to go to University. Is French, therefore, forced on people?


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    #280
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    When I was 10 I wanted to be a Jedi, but there were no classes provided in the school I went to.:(


    And you have the cheek to preach about "irrelevant, anecdotal" information.


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    #281
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    And you have the cheek to preach about "irrelevant, anecdotal" information.

    Yes, I do, in the form of a sarcastic analogy to your ridiculous question.
    Hear a whooshing noise up there anywhere?


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    #282
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yes, I do, in the form of a sarcastic analogy to your ridiculous question.
    Hear a whooshing noise up there anywhere?

    Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
    My "ridiculous" question was relevant to the quote I had from Ado75.


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    #283
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    I'm a regular 6th year student. Stop rubbishing my opinions. You're constantly asking people to supply you with your precious data. They provide it, ask you to provide yours with your counter-claims, and all of a sudden you have none, as indicated above.
    I will rubbish anything I like that doesn't make sense.
    I do not need to provide any evidence of a counter claim to show your own claim is not proven.
    Also, your school year is irrelevant. I don't have to pretend you're right because you're inexperienced.


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    #284
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
    My "ridiculous" question was relevant to the quote I had from Ado75.
    That's what everybody says who doesn't get the sarcasm, isn't it?:D


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    #285
    Ado75
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Ado75


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    When you were 4 or 5 years old starting primary school, did you have a desire to learn any other language?

    Didn't realise that there were fee-paying Irish schools in Dublin. There are none in Cork, either primary or secondary level. And I doubt there are fee-paying Gaelscoileanna in any other part of the country other than Dublin. Things are different outside The Pale, believe it or not.

    A Typically hostile response from someone who hasn't experienced the negative aspects of the Irish language within this society. Maybe fee paying was an incorrect term to use, more correct - exclusively middle class, where money for registration fees and extra curricular activities puts participation beyond the reach of other sections of society. Either way those barriers do exist in this society whether you are aware of them or not.

    As regards being from the Pale, you got in one. Irish is complete irrelevance in my life or anyone I know. Yet I feel 100% Irish. You seem to suggest that because my parents had no language options for me at four or five that I should be thankful for my fruitless education in Irish.

    I leaned German at second level. Which stood me in good stead as went on to work there in the 1990s. There was a complete contrast in how this language was taught to me which may account for my acquiring it and maintaining a proficiency in it. There is also the fact that Irish is/was as relevant Klingon in my day to day life.

    All I'm looking for is choice. A choice which outside of the core subject of Maths and English should be permitted.


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    #286
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I will rubbish anything I like that doesn't make sense.
    I do not need to provide any evidence of a counter claim to show your own claim is not proven.
    Also, your school year is irrelevant. I don't have to pretend you're right because you're inexperienced.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    That's what everybody says who doesn't get the sarcasm, isn't it?:D

    My posts make perfect sense.

    You asked was I a Christian fundamentalist, I replied by saying no I'm a 6th year student. I'm not bringing my school year into the argument.

    I get sarcasm, I just think there are far more intelligent forms of humour.


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    #287
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    My posts make perfect sense.

    You asked was I a Christian fundamentalist, I replied by saying no I'm a 6th year student.

    These aren't mutually exclusive.
    So your post makes no sense.


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    #288
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    These aren't mutually exclusive.
    So your post makes no sense.

    My posts make perfect sense = reply to your comment that they don't.

    You asked was I a Christian fundamentalist and I said no I'm a 6th year student. I wasn't bringing my school year into the argument. = reply to your comment that I was trying to use my school year in the argument.

    Two seperate replies to 2 different parts of your comments. Surely you could link them back to what you were saying to me?

    You're nit-picking at this stage.


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    #289
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    You asked was I a Christian fundamentalist and I said no I'm a 6th year student. I wasn't bringing my school year into the argument.
    Really? Then why did YOU bring it up?


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    #290
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    You're nit-picking at this stage.
    Aside from the fact that I hardly need to nitpick when I've already conclusively proven that I don't have to make any counter claim to the unsubstantiated claim that Irish helps overall student grades.
    The ball was already firmly in your court, so I've no real need to sidetrack, do I?


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    #291
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Really? Then why did YOU bring it up?

    I was simply stating what I am. And I am a 6th year student. Not a Christian fundamentalist as you asked. This is not part of the argument. I'm not using it in the debate about Irish.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Aside from the fact that I hardly need to nitpick when I've already conclusively proven that I don't have to make any counter claim to the unsubstantiated claim that Irish helps overall student grades.
    The ball was already firmly in your court, so I've no real need to sidetrack, do I?

    Where did I say specifically that Irish helps overall student grades? I said other language study does.


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    #292
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    I was simply stating what I am. And I am a 6th year student. Not a Christian fundamentalist as you asked. This is not part of the argument. I'm not using it in the debate about Irish.
    Fine. We'll pretend you never brought it up.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Where did I say specifically that Irish helps overall student grades? I said other language study does.
    Have it your way. Makes no difference to the argument.


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    #293
    musho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭musho


    i agree


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    #294
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Fine. We'll pretend you never brought it up.

    Really, it was you who brought it up by asking such an idiotic question as "are you a Christian fundamentalist."
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Have it your way. Makes no difference to the argument.

    Well it's true that I didn't explicitly state that learning Irish improves academic grades overall. "Have it your way" - are you still refusing to see that you were wrong on this point?


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    #295
    Salty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭Salty


    musho wrote: »
    i agree

    With what may I ask?


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    #296
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Really, it was you who brought it up by asking such an idiotic question as "are you a Christian fundamentalist."
    Asking opponents to prove an absence is a common Christian fundamentalist ploy. It is idiotic of you to not see that that is what you are doing.
    _meehan_ wrote: »
    Well it's true that I didn't explicitly state that learning Irish improves academic grades overall. "Have it your way" - are you still refusing to see that you were wrong on this point?
    Wrong on what point? That learning a second language is unproven to aid overall academic progress in a study using proper controls? Of course I might be wrong on this, but then again we know for a fact that nobody has presented any evidence that proves this theory, so it remains unproven.
    The only hard evidence provided so far is that students do better learning a language as different as possible from their mother tongue. So thank you for showing that under no circumstances should Irish be taught in Irish schools to benefit students' other skills as it is far too similar English.


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    #297
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    _meehan_ wrote: »
    In many secondary schools, French is the only European language available from 1st to 6th year. It has to be undertaken by students who want to go to University. Is French, therefore, forced on people?

    Not all universities require a European language, neither do the Institutes of Technology so there are options in this regard...

    Why is more subject choice such a bad thing? If someone wants to study Irish they will, if not then then better that they choose a subject that they like. Why do some people feel the need to force others into studying a subject which does not suit them academically?


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    #298
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    In the absence of any proof there is an effect, I will assume there is no effect.
    I do not need to prove anything to be perfectly logical in assuming your unproven claim can be ignored.
    Are you a Christian fundamentalist by any chance? They love to pull that "you can't prove it's not there" nonsense.:rolleyes:

    I have put forward a large body of evidence to support my position, on what basis do you ignore this?

    I have shown study after study, all agreeing that there is a positive overall impact to second language learning. You have shown nothing to suggest that these study's are in error. You are simply burying your head.:rolleyes:


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    #299
    Hector Mildew
    Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭Hector Mildew


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I have shown study after study, all agreeing that there is a positive overall impact to second language learning. You have shown nothing to suggest that these study's are in error. You are simply burying your head.:rolleyes:

    I din't read those studies in full, at what level does learning a second language have the most impact (I.e. Primary, JC, LC, etc.)? How would offering a choice of second language affect the results?


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    #300
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Hector Mildew wrote: »
    I din't read those studies in full, at what level does learning a second language have the most impact (I.e. Primary, JC, LC, etc.)? How would offering a choice of second language affect the results?

    The studies suggest that the Impact is proportional to the amount of time the second language is studied. The longer they are studied the more positive the impact.

    I doubt offering a choice of second language would affect the results, though that said, the amount of difference between first and second language can be a factor.

    However, the question of if learning a second language is beneficial or not and the question of Irish being compulsory are two separate Issues, I was arguing the former.


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    #301
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    It affects far more than just students. It affects teachers and lecturers at second and third level. It affects parents. It affects book shops and publishers. It affects policy-makers, administrative staff and researchers. There's a whole world out there beyond your secondary school classroom.

    I don't think 18 year olds should be laboured with the task of propping up teachers, lecturers, parents, bookshops, policy makers... And I am someone who can and does speak the language! Turning 13 years of compulsory Irish into 11 isn't going to have such awful knock-on effects. Indeed, it might even give researchers a new line of study.


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