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Air Corps to collect Irish citizens from Libya

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    #92
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Unless you have appropriate contacts in the DFA or DoD, that's a ballsy statement to make so definitively.

    I do, as it happens. From what I've heard, communications breakdown was between the DFA and the Libyans rather than the crew on the ground. It may be some time before we know exactly what happened. A lot of what has been reported in the media is woefully inaccurate.

    G4 departed Baldonnel for Dublin then onto Rome and Luqa with DFA people 20 minutes ago.


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    #93
    Morpheus
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    crazy! thought the G4 was U/S?


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    #94
    Steyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    "IRL251" Noted tracking across South Wales - heading 112 - height 41000' - 20.39.


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    #95
    Steyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    I wonder will this prompt the incoming Government to purchase at least 2 Aircraft for jobs like this.


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    #96
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Morphéus wrote: »
    crazy! thought the G4 was U/S?

    nah it's still knocking around, officially the plan is to get rid of it as soon as any money needs to be spent on it

    but that was just kicking the can down the road to let the next govt make the decision, no doubt Enda will be criticised by FF TDs (if there are any left) for wasting money flying around in de guverment jet in a few weeks' time

    maybe maintenance costs were reduced when it didn't have to make the 30 second trip from Baldonnel to Dublin Apt to pick up Bertie (he got an extra 20 minutes in bed because of that), it'll get to stretch it's legs going to Knock now :pac:
    Steyr wrote: »
    "IRL251" Noted tracking across South Wales - heading 112 - height 41000' - 20.39.

    went to EIDW first, en route to LIRA then LMML
    Steyr wrote: »
    I wonder will this prompt the incoming Government to purchase at least 2 Aircraft for jobs like this.

    lol


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    #97
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Given that the Irish citizens involved in Libya were aiding and funding the Government aparatus, I fail to see why we are sending out the Air Corp to rescue them.

    Time to send the planes home and leave them to market forces. They've been aiding Gadafy so let him look after their exit,


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    #98
    sherdydan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 393 ✭✭sherdydan


    Why in God's name havent all the E.U countrys gotten together at this stage, dropped in a few planes worth of troops to secure the airport, and then gotten every EU citizen the fu*k out of there!

    Seriously, I'm not trying to get all "action man" but there are EU citizens there, who cannot be taken out of the country for whatever reason, at on point I heard the majority (56 of the 70 odd I think) of Irish citizens were in the airport, so I'd assume there are large amounts of various other EU citizens there.


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    #99
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    sherdydan wrote: »
    Why in God's name havent all the E.U countrys gotten together at this stage, dropped in a few planes worth of troops to secure the airport, and then gotten every EU citizen the fu*k out of there!

    Seriously, I'm not trying to get all "action man" but there are EU citizens there, who cannot be taken out of the country for whatever reason, at on point I heard the majority (56 of the 70 odd I think) of Irish citizens were in the airport, so I'd assume there are large amounts of various other EU citizens there.

    They have been supporting the Libyan Despot regime. Leave them to their own devices. Why are we bothered? If the have the cash, they or their employer afford a plane. They are sorted.


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    #100
    sherdydan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 393 ✭✭sherdydan


    BrianD wrote: »
    They have been supporting the Libyan Despot regime. Leave them to their own devices. Why are we bothered? If the have the cash, they or their employer afford a plane. They are sorted.


    But it isnt really a financial issue, it's getting these people on the planes in the first place!


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    #101
    savagecabbages
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭savagecabbages


    I think its great to see the IAC making an effort to help out citizens, I dont care who made the call, or who they work for. They are IRISH CITZENS.

    It would be a sad day if we all adopted the attitude of some posters on this thread and started leaving our citizens around the world for dead...

    Given the timescale and the rapidly changing situation on the ground in Libya having a commercial plane on standby in Malta for god knows how long could become very expensive very fast.

    Out of curiosity how long is left on the clock for the CASAs? Have they performed well at their fishery patrol duty? I'm asking this as they are obviously too small for this emergency duty (which they were never supposed to be performing anyway), and whether there is merit to replacing them with larger fishery patrol aircraft like Hercules or another more versatile aircraft.


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    #102
    ectoraige
    Registered Users Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭ectoraige


    sherdydan wrote: »
    Why in God's name havent all the E.U countrys gotten together at this stage, dropped in a few planes worth of troops to secure the airport, and then gotten every EU citizen the fu*k out of there!

    Seriously, I'm not trying to get all "action man" but there are EU citizens there, who cannot be taken out of the country for whatever reason, at on point I heard the majority (56 of the 70 odd I think) of Irish citizens were in the airport, so I'd assume there are large amounts of various other EU citizens there.

    I've been working under the assumption that this scenario is being seriously contemplated and is part of the reason the aircraft have been sent out there. They are about the best assets we can contribute to such a scenario should it play out that way.


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    #103
    savagecabbages
    Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭savagecabbages


    Not to mention the outcry/bad publicity if the sh1t hit the fan and we were seen leaving citizens to their own devices/deaths, while other countries were getting people out, or at least trying to get people out.


    How are the other rescue efforts going?


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    #104
    Utrinque Paratus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭Utrinque Paratus


    Absurdum wrote: »
    Latest news is that Irish258 (Learjet) is evacuating a British casualty from Tripoli as the Brits currently don't have the capability to undertake the mission. The G4 is preparing to depart Baldonnell for Malta and possibly Tripoli with DFA officials.

    The story with Casa 253 yesterday is still unclear, however it has nothing to do with bags of cash or satellite phones (or lack of :rolleyes:).

    Tripoli airport is in chaos at the moment, there is nobody in charge. You can't just land an aircraft, walk into the terminal and pick out your passengers and then get on your way. Especially when there are 100's of armed and angry lads hanging around and you don't know what's going on. There are reports that Gaddafi's aircraft are attacking protesters in Tripoli.

    Some people posting in this thread and other threads have no idea what they are talking about.

    edit: just to add, the situation is changing/evolving literally by the minute, some of the above info is liable to change

    Absurdum wrote: »
    Latest news is that Irish258 (Learjet) is evacuating a British casualty from Tripoli as the Brits currently don't have the capability to undertake the mission. The G4 is preparing to depart Baldonnell for Malta and possibly Tripoli with DFA officials.


    Thats because its an international effort, Irish and other EU nationals are being evacuated on British govt chartered planes.


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    #105
    blondie83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭blondie83


    BrianD wrote: »
    They have been supporting the Libyan Despot regime. Leave them to their own devices.

    sigh...Brian have you ever even been to Africia? It's just that your putting yourself forward as quite the expert on Irish people working there, I'd love to know where you're getting your information from!


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    #106
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    BrianD wrote: »
    They have been supporting the Libyan Despot regime. Leave them to their own devices. Why are we bothered? If the have the cash, they or their employer afford a plane. They are sorted.


    No they haven't. Stop inventing stories here Brian.


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    #107
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Absurdum wrote: »
    No they haven't. Stop inventing stories here Brian.

    on the other hand, an oil and gas recruitment guy was on BBC radio five live this morning talking about wages - those poor souls in the desert camps will be on between £500 and £1000 per day, tax free, with free flights, accommodation and schooling for their children.

    a friend of mine who's a primary school teacher in Bahrain is earning about £70k tax free, with similar arrangements. in the UK, he would be earning about £32k before tax.

    i'm not saying 'throw them to the wolves', but these are apparently intelligent people who were quite happy to be raking in the danger money - and thats what it is - and when it goes wrong they come crying to mummy.

    they made a big decision, and they made quite a bad big decision - they should have to experience some discomfort for that.


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    #108
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    BP have organised at least one flight from Tripoli, but short of employing their own militia, I'm not sure what they can do.

    Don't forget as well, the consular people love this sort of thing, it makes a nice change from drinking wine with their French colleagues, or playing tennis with the Swiss.


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    #109
    Morpheus
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    wonder if any of the DFF staff on the G-IV are qualified on the MP5 .... ;)


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    #110
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    BP have organised at least one flight from Tripoli, but short of employing their own militia, I'm not sure what they can do.

    Don't forget as well, the consular people love this sort of thing, it makes a nice change from drinking wine with their French colleagues, or playing tennis with the Swiss.

    most of the big companies in these places have contingency plans - they'll have planes on contract, emergency plans, drills that they practice occasionally and they'll employ people/companies to advise them on the political and security situation and to tell them when to stay, and when to leave.

    there appear to be three seperate problems so far - firstly that the plans/drills don't seem have worked, secondly that the plan seems to have been based on the assumption that there will always be communications and that the roads and airports will be safe to use - and thirdly that lots of people have gone out there to work either on their own, or with companies that haven't even attempted to make plans and arrangements.

    these people need to understand that they weren't earning danger money because its a bit hot in Libya, they were earning danger money because it was dangerous, and it seems they haven't taken that into account or made plans of their own.


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    #111
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    OS119 wrote: »
    they made a big decision, and they made quite a bad big decision

    If they did, they were only following the lead given by all the Western governments in cosying up to Gadhaffi over the last ten years or so, including our own dear Bertie, despite the mayhem caused on this island by the arms and explosives Libya supplied.

    aherngadaffi.jpg

    In the circumstances, now that it's all gone pear-shaped, they have the right to expect the support and assistance of their governments.


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    #112
    SamuelFox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭SamuelFox


    I stand over the thrust of my comments – this mission by the Defence Forces is a publicity stunt. I exaggerated for effect in some of my previous posts which may have clouded what I tried to say.

    The whole concept of military activity, the basic building block is the utility of force. That’s the difference between an army and a civilian organisation. If you send in troops you have to resource them to do the job, because using military resources sends an aggressive message, whether you intend it to or not. This means that force deployed must be capable of doing the job, or have back up that is capable of doing the job. If you don’t have that force then all you do is risk antagonising the locals and making a bad situation worse. There is nothing worse than going off half cocked.

    In this case most European governments, including the British, preferred to use civilian aircraft to minimise this tension. (AFAIK the RAF sent a Herc as the civilian plane broke down, and now that civilian planes are flying the Hercs have been withdrawn) This doesn’t attract the same headlines, but it’s more effective, and the result is that several planes have left Libya for the UK. Ironically the two people interviewed by Sky at Gatwick yesterday had Irish accents.

    Ireland, on the other hand, chose to send military planes in without any back up, completely ignoring of the principles of the utility of force – the planes caused all the hassle expected by foreign military planes landing, but none of the benefits. That’s why the Air Corps got sent back to Malta with a slapped arse, and Irish people flew to Gatwick with BP and the UK Government.

    I’ve been criticised for saying that “pilots” were the instigators of this mission. I used the term “pilots” to mean the Air Staff or whatever the leadership of the Air Corps are called. Clearly no junior officer made this decision – its bizarre that I even have to clarify this. The point I was making is that this crisis was seen as an opportunity to publicise the Air Corps, and that was the motivation for the mission. The joke of this matter is that civilians from the Department of Foreign Affairs have now flown into Tripoli on a civilian aircraft in order to convince the Libyans to let the military in. That’s a bit of a farce.

    Another issue with using the Air Corps is capacity – there are hundreds of people looking to get out, about 50 of whom are Irish. We sent two planes with a combined capacity of about 40, so probably couldn’t have lifted the lot in go anyway.
    From a military point of view two the decision to send two small planes looks contradictory - multiple airlifts from a dangerous airport is a bad idea, so we should get everyone out in one go, which requires a big plane.
    On the other hand if multiple airlifts aren’t a problem why send two planes? Send one to shuttle back and forth and leave the other doing what it should be doing in Ireland.
    Ultimately if we had chartered a plane we could have got a lot more people out, in one go, including fellow European citizens that we also have consular obligations to.

    The final bizarre thing about this is the lack of communications. I wouldn’t get into a car without a mobile phone, so its beyond comprehension that supposedly military officers could go into what they describe as a dangerous area without a failsafe communications system. It’s just another sign of the amateurism of this whole episode. If it was too dangerous to send in civvie planes then it was probably too dangerous to rely on civvie communication systems.


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    #113
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    One of the "technical" delays in the UK was reluctance to go. I'm not sure if this was pilots or airlines or even insurance companies, but I was surprised the UK government couldn't just commander an airbus and get a couple of RAF pilots to fly it.

    I know its not that simple, but there are hundreds of planes in the UK yet it took 24 hours to find one to fly out there. As it turned out, it was quicker to send a gun boat.


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    #114
    SamuelFox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭SamuelFox


    One of the "technical" delays in the UK was reluctance to go.
    Are you sure of that? That wasn't in the news over here. Given that Virgin are helping out with the airbridge to Afghan I thought it would be easy enough to get some volunteers!


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    #115
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    One of the "technical" delays in the UK was reluctance to go. I'm not sure if this was pilots or airlines or even insurance companies, but I was surprised the UK government couldn't just commander an airbus and get a couple of RAF pilots to fly it.

    I know its not that simple, but there are hundreds of planes in the UK yet it took 24 hours to find one to fly out there. As it turned out, it was quicker to send a gun boat.

    i get the impression it was cheapness - they hired a one-man band that was the cheapest quote and were then surprised when the cheap, one man band aircraft had a technical problem and there was no aircraft to replace it.

    i wouldn't be surprised to hear that reluctance was part of the story - the handling of this at a UK political level has been chaotic and half-arsed to say the least.

    my own impression is that the well rehersed drills and well thought out plans that exist for evacuations from pretty much every country contain a list of military assets that are required to be kept available and at high readiness in order to carry them out - unfortunately this and previous governments have refused to fund the commitments required, and so when the Operations Cell at PJHQ are told 'there's a problem, get our people out of Libya' they dug the plan out and discovered that the assets required are either in Afghanistan, scrapped, or in the UK and cannibalised so that other assets can go to Afghanistan.

    the loss of Nimrod, the 'relaxing' of the readiness state for the E-3D fleet, the loss of carrier airpower, the loss of RN escort vessels and the lack of 'spare' attack and medium/heavy lift helicopters for the Amphibious fleet is going to have a real impact on how quickly and how effectively the UK can mount a 'non-permissive' operation in Libya to recover those UK/EU citizens trapped well away from the easy access points like Tripoli and Benghazi.

    hopefully somebody in Downing Street will realise that the only thing you get with 'less' is 'less'.


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    #116
    Steyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Steyr


    Taken yesterday at Malta:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/59358228@N05/5475206056/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/59358228@N05/5474609661/


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    #117
    cyrusdvirus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    Steyr wrote: »
    Taken yesterday at Malta:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/59358228@N05/5475206056/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/59358228@N05/5474609661/

    GRRRR

    Use the A&A picture thread!! ;)


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    #118
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    sherdydan wrote: »
    Why in God's name havent all the E.U countrys gotten together at this stage, dropped in a few planes worth of troops to secure the airport, and then gotten every EU citizen the fu*k out of there!

    Seriously, I'm not trying to get all "action man" but there are EU citizens there, who cannot be taken out of the country for whatever reason, at on point I heard the majority (56 of the 70 odd I think) of Irish citizens were in the airport, so I'd assume there are large amounts of various other EU citizens there.
    Did it ever cross your mind Gaddafi's tigger happy supporters and it might produce a bloodbath ?


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    #119
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    blondie83 wrote: »
    sigh...Brian have you ever even been to Africia? It's just that your putting yourself forward as quite the expert on Irish people working there, I'd love to know where you're getting your information from!


    I'm aware of the situation. Somebody else mentioned that Eircsson Consulting were out there. What else could be doing but aiding the regime? All of these individuals have been supporting this regime. Tax free it would seem I suspected and confirmed by others (that's always been the carrot to get people out there). People have to be accountably for the actions.

    But it gets better, the DCU professor that got out on a BP flight was, wait for it, delivering a history and philosophy lecture at an institution dedicated to the study of the ideology underpinning the regime of M. Gadafy. You couldn't make it up. I really hope that the Libyans were paying for this and not DCU.

    I never said leave anybody for dead or stranded. I'm just saying recoup the cost of the mention from those who have been extracted or from their employers. Sending the Air Corp was both unprecedented and unneccessary. Most people seem to be leaving on civilian or chartered flights. Air Malta was still flying in and out yesterday. Even the Irish advance team is flying in on a commercial flight to Tripoli.

    It seems that the DF are determined to continue with this mission regardless. Common sense would say, park the plane in Malta as a last resort option and stick the 40 Irish on the first flight out of Tripoli to Europe.


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    #120
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    The whole concept of military activity, the basic building block is the utility of force. That’s the difference between an army and a civilian organisation.

    Although most of your points are valid, I take exception to that one. The main difference between a government military and a civilian organisation isn't the use of force, it's the fact that they're subject to military discipline. There are plenty of civilian organisations capable of using force. A government knows exactly where it stands when it sends a military body, can make instructions with confidence that they will be carried out (Especially if they're intent-driven-orders), and the personnel who make any decisions are directly accountable to them.

    A second difference, come to think of it, is the relative protection that a military body has from a civilian body. For example, impounding a military aircraft is likely to be substantially more politically sensitive than impounding a civilian charter.

    Finally, the idea that the appearance of a military aircraft must bring with it the inherent background of force is daft. When US helicopters show up over Indonesia after a tidal wave, or whatever, yes, there may be a bit of indignity from the locals that the Americans showed up at their city and not the Indonesian Air Force, but I strongly doubt they were particularly concerned that the Rangers would be swooping in on top of them.

    NT


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    #121
    blondie83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭blondie83


    BrianD wrote: »
    I'm aware of the situation. Somebody else mentioned that Eircsson Consulting were out there. What else could be doing but aiding the regime? All of these individuals have been supporting this regime.
    Ericsson GSDC were my old employers - they took us on as grads on a grad salary and based us in Dublin - not tax free. Those Ericsson consulting people you talk about are engineers in their 20's just trying to make a difference by helping to set up the 3rd generation mobile telecoms infrastructure in Africia. They get no extra money for it - our department manager once actually told us "we'll never pay danger money to send people to Africia"! Was a great job all the same - saw some really interesting places, and got to feel like I was making a difference :)


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