Air Corps to collect Irish citizens from Libya

SamuelFox · 24-02-2011 1:36pm

No-one is suggesting that the Irish people there should be left there, least of all me!

What I am saying is that this is another cynical attempt at self publicity by the Defence Forces. Sending in civilian planes in military markings – which is effectively what the Air Corps have sent will do nothing except inflame the situation.

What a stupid comment. The DF don't take decisions. They follow instructions from the Government.

Don’t be so naive. The minute this happened some underworked pilot in Baldonnel saw an opportunity to get the DF in the news, and attempt to show some relevance. The same happened with the floods a few years ago and the snow at Christmas.

BEASTERLY · 24-02-2011 1:40pm

BrianD wrote: »

Didn't go exactly according to plan yesterday did it? This is descending into a farce.

I am curious as to why these planes were sent. We've had situations before and there was no direct intervention. It seems that the Irish Government acted as fast if not faster than others. The current government don't seem to be making much publicity out of it . So what's the story? A favour to the companies whose employees are there? Is it the Defence Forces doing a favour for the Government who provided much needed modernisation funds over the years? A reminder to the incoming Government that the Air Corp are useful? WOuld be interesting to know how the decision came about.

The Brits were still having "technical problems" yesterday and if you noticed on the news last night that the pictures from Malta showed an RAF C-130 at the airport (assuming these pictures weren't file footage).

Listening to PK on Radio 1 this morning it seems clear that many of these companies don't have contingency plans to extract their people. These companies can not continue to trade like this and expect the state and taxpayer to bail out their employees when the going gets tough. The Canadian model of contract of repayment is a very fair system of dealing with this. They get you out and you repay the cost later.

Anyway, getting back to military matters. What state is the Libyan army and air defences in? The BBC news showed an "abandoned" SAM facility last night. Also he soesn't seem to be able to roll out what ever part of the army he still commands - and it seems that he does still have loyalty in sections of the armed forces.

There's also talk of him creating his own emirate within Libya which would be an interesting development.

:rolleyes:

Well according to The Journal it was Libyan security forces that made the CASA leave.

The CASA plane had to leave Tripoli last night and return to its base in Valetta, Malta after Libyan security forces at the airport prevented it from picking up Irish people.

Why were the planes sent? Well there is Irish citizens in immediate danger, so why do you have to make stupid and ludicrous assumptions and conspiracy theories because our government wants to protect its own people? You just said the government acted fast, and your trying to make that a bad thing

. The government did something right, get over it. Reminds me of the people blaming the government for snow falling from the sky.

Now The Journal are saying a second attempt will be made shortly. Lets hope it all goes OK this time.

SamuelFox · 24-02-2011 1:44pm

Morphéus wrote: »

You can order a military plane to ignore libya and enter libyan airspace and forcibly land and remove your people, you cant order the same from a charter plane. not saying this would happen, but there is your contingency, regardless of what equipment they have, if the order came down, i can guarantee theyd have made the flight.

Thats not really an option tho, is it? Forcibly land? Honestly????

And if this really is the plan, do you think 9 members of the mighty Air Corps in their Gordon Gekko jet or turboprop CASA are going to do it? Not likely is it?

The people in Libya will come out either by flights given permission by the Libyans, in which case Aer Lingus, or even Aer Arann, could have done it; or without Libyan permission in which case it'll be by sea and the Aer Corps is again useless.

On the plus side the DF get even more undeserved publicity making realistic reform less likely, the lads get to tell a few tall tales in Coppers or the Golf Club and everyone is a winner. Unless you are a taxpayer, or stuck in Libya, or ever in a position where you might need a real military force and the Irish Defence Farce is what you are left with.

BEASTERLY · 24-02-2011 1:50pm

SamuelFox wrote: »

No-one is suggesting that the Irish people there should be left there, least of all me!

What I am saying is that this is another cynical attempt at self publicity by the Defence Forces. Sending in civilian planes in military markings – which is effectively what the Air Corps have sent will do nothing except inflame the situation.

Don’t be so naive. The minute this happened some underworked pilot in Baldonnel saw an opportunity to get the DF in the news, and attempt to show some relevance. The same happened with the floods a few years ago and the snow at Christmas.

So they should do nothing because to please cynical know-it-alls like you. These pilots would be doing continuous maritime patrols anyway, not exactly under worked.

If you have any evidence that is is a PR stunt then please share, if not then please come back to reality. What your saying is like saying ambulance crews only attend road accidents for PR. For **** sake get real will ya!!!

What is the unwillingness to except that the government or DF did something good without putting a negative spin on it.

SamuelFox · 24-02-2011 1:51pm

The Department says it was not possible to communicate with the flight when it was on the ground in Tripoli and it is awaiting a debriefing from the crew.

How do you lose contact with a military aircraft? Man, you couldn't make this up. I could understand how Dublin might not be able to contact them in the air, because the lads might be busy firing through the windows or out on the wings setting up ropes to abseil down and assault the airport.

But the ground? Too busy posing for facebook photos maybe.

BEASTERLY · 24-02-2011 1:56pm

SamuelFox wrote: »

Thats not really an option tho, is it? Forcibly land? Honestly????

And if this really is the plan, do you think 9 members of the mighty Air Corps in their Gordon Gekko jet or turboprop CASA are going to do it? Not likely is it?

The people in Libya will come out either by flights given permission by the Libyans, in which case Aer Lingus, or even Aer Arann, could have done it; or without Libyan permission in which case it'll be by sea and the Aer Corps is again useless.

On the plus side the DF get even more undeserved publicity making realistic reform less likely, the lads get to tell a few tall tales in Coppers or the Golf Club and everyone is a winner. Unless you are a taxpayer, or stuck in Libya, or ever in a position where you might need a real military force and the Irish Defence Farce is what you are left with.

LOL, You just have to laugh!!! Could aer arann or aer lingus do it in a couple of hours notice, doubt it.

SamuelFox · 24-02-2011 1:57pm

BEASTERLY wrote: »

So they should do nothing because to please cynical know-it-alls like you. These pilots would be doing continuous maritime patrols anyway, not exactly under worked.

The plane might have being doing continous patrols (unlikely tho), the pilots certainly not.

If you have any evidence that is is a PR stunt then please share, if not then please come back to reality. What your saying is like saying ambulance crews only attend road accidents for PR. For **** sake get real will ya!!!

Its actually totally different. Emergency Services have a role and they perform it very well, while under-resourced, underpaid and overworked. The exact opposite applies to the Defence Forces.

What is the unwillingness to except that the government or DF did something good without putting a negative spin on it.

Thats the "begrudgery" cry that was thrown at anyone who questioned theconsenus over the past decade. The banks are best in the world, we need more houses, FF is fantastic. The Defence Forces gets a very easy ride despite being the least effective public service we have. When they do something worth commending I will do so. When they launch a publicity stunt like this one I'll show it for what it is.

BEASTERLY · 24-02-2011 2:00pm

SamuelFox wrote: »

How do you lose contact with a military aircraft? Man, you couldn't make this up. I could understand how Dublin might not be able to contact them in the air, because the lads might be busy firing through the windows or out on the wings setting up ropes to abseil down and assault the airport.

But the ground? Too busy posing for facebook photos maybe.

Em... Have you watched the news, mobile phone systems have been shut down. Radio contact to a plane on the ground a few hundred miles away is not possible. All your arguments have been based on stupid things you made up in your head. Either you are trolling or you really are a special breed.

BEASTERLY · 24-02-2011 2:05pm

SamuelFox wrote: »

The plane might have being doing continous patrols (unlikely tho), the pilots certainly not.

Its actually totally different. Emergency Services have a role and they perform it very well, while under-resourced, underpaid and overworked. The exact opposite applies to the Defence Forces.

Thats the "begrudgery" cry that was thrown at anyone who questioned theconsenus over the past decade. The banks are best in the world, we need more houses, FF is fantastic. The Defence Forces gets a very easy ride despite being the least effective public service we have. When they do something worth commending I will do so. When they launch a publicity stunt like this one I'll show it for what it is.

From all three of those comments you have showed you dont have a clue. Unlike what you have suggested, Im coming a neutral standpoint, ive no vested interests in FF or the DF, It's your ignorance that I have problem with.

This is my last post because to have an intellegent conversation you need both parties to have some form of intelligence.

Fratton Fred · 24-02-2011 2:07pm

SamuelFox wrote: »

No-one is suggesting that the Irish people there should be left there, least of all me!

What I am saying is that this is another cynical attempt at self publicity by the Defence Forces. Sending in civilian planes in military markings – which is effectively what the Air Corps have sent will do nothing except inflame the situation.

Don’t be so naive. The minute this happened some underworked pilot in Baldonnel saw an opportunity to get the DF in the news, and attempt to show some relevance. The same happened with the floods a few years ago and the snow at Christmas.

If there are Irish citizens in immediate danger and the Irish defence forces were not chopping at the bit to do whatever they can, I would seriously question why they joined in the first place.

The Air Corp is the only bit of the DF that is in a position to assist, so bit is right they went.

SamuelFox · 24-02-2011 2:08pm

BEASTERLY wrote: »

Could aer arann or aer lingus do it in a couple of hours notice, doubt it.

Aer Arann was a joke mate. A commercial charter airline? Probably, other countries seem to have used them. 2 left for the UK today, with plenty empty seats for any stray Irish who want to leave, had Dublin thought of that.

RMD · 24-02-2011 2:12pm

SamuelFox wrote: »

Don’t be so naive. The minute this happened some underworked pilot in Baldonnel saw an opportunity to get the DF in the news, and attempt to show some relevance. The same happened with the floods a few years ago and the snow at Christmas.

Are you seriously suggesting the whole plan was created by some underworked pilot in Baldonnel? It had nothing to do with the government / higher chain of command in the air corps? Nope, it was all some underworked pilot who wouldn't have the authority to decide "hey lads, let's go to Liyba". I'm sorry, but that is probably the most idiotic statement I've ever seen on boards.

You're either trolling Samuel, or you have some serious chip on your shoulder with the defense forces. Either way they would have been out on maritime patrol so this isn't some underworked pilot or a waste of money. They went out to try and help Irish citizens who are in a country that's in an absolute state right now. The role of the DF is to help protect the Irish people, yet whenever they do this you claim it is a publicity stunt. You know so little about the DF yet have such a loud voice when it comes to it, it just makes you look like a fool.

Morpheus · 24-02-2011 2:12pm

SamuelFox, you are here armed with no relevant information, you cannot back up your arguments and you just sound like a raving looney with some of the "facts" you have given us.

So the aircorps doing this just for publicity? flying one of their most expensive assets into what is effectively a warzone with no regard for anything other than posing for facebook photos? Really? educate yourself with some real facts or go back under your bridge.

BrianD · 24-02-2011 2:18pm

BEASTERLY wrote: »

Em... Have you watched the news, mobile phone systems have been shut down. Radio contact to a plane on the ground a few hundred miles away is not possible. All your arguments have been based on stupid things you made up in your head. Either you are trolling or you really are a special breed.

Military communications as well? Satellite phones? In the Leb in the '80s there were no mobile phones.

Avgas · 24-02-2011 2:20pm

BrianD wrote: »

Didn't go exactly according to plan yesterday did it? This is descending into a farce.

Interesting post BrianD, but maybe we should give the air corps some credit here....even if they eventually manage to bring home just a few of our people it will have been worth it.....plus it takes a fair amount of b**lls to fly into a civil-war/anarchy situation without any DAS/ECM onboard knowing full well some loony with 14.5mm/SA-7 could take you down.........it is criminal that the world of DAS/ECM, etc seems more or less unknown to the Air Corps...probably not their fault...a resource issue.....doubtless....

BTW......I think some of the air corps slagging/criticism which has been here on boards has contributed to an awareness that they need to become more relevant....and in some way that explains such missions now........they and DoD civil servants also are aware that the scale of cutback looming in the public sector [whoever is in power] will be huge..so use that Learjet or lose it.....

My (wild) guess is the reason they flew back empty handed is they lacked money for bribes....RTE radio had a report earlier that bribes were being taken by Libyan security forces in and around the airport......the obvious point is there should be a common EU force and position on this...not necessarily a stabilisation force,....but even a common plan as regards evacuation and cost sharing......fractional time-share in a future Belgian A400 or Swedish C-17 anyone? And if the UNSC pass some sort of mandate...could we be looking at a possible deployment of the battlegroups for perimeter security...?

There are quite a few interesting angles on this for Irish security/defence policy...let us hope those drafting the new defence white paper are paying attention.

BrianD · 24-02-2011 2:21pm

Morphéus wrote: »

SamuelFox, you are here armed with no relevant information, you cannot back up your arguments and you just sound like a raving looney with some of the "facts" you have given us.

So the aircorps doing this just for publicity? flying one of their most expensive assets into what is effectively a warzone with no regard for anything other than posing for facebook photos? Really? educate yourself with some real facts or go back under your bridge.

He may be exaggerating for effect but there is something distinctly unusual and unprecedented by this activity.

In fairness, it was remarkable stupid of the DF to produce and publish that video of two planes taking off at Baldonnel. If their social manager is reading - these are best done after mission accomplished.

Morpheus · 24-02-2011 2:25pm

Its on various news sites if you look, that the Libyans are attempting to jam all satellite phones near tripoli.

RMD · 24-02-2011 2:40pm

BrianD wrote: »

He may be exaggerating for effect but there is something distinctly unusual and unprecedented by this activity.

In fairness, it was remarkable stupid of the DF to produce and publish that video of two planes taking off at Baldonnel. If their social manager is reading - these are best done after mission accomplished.

I'll definitely agree with you there, publishing that video was ridiculous under any circumstance, even if they did succeed. Just makes the air corps look like a bunch of amateurs, the fact that they failed as well just makes it worse.

Fratton Fred · 24-02-2011 2:42pm

This does somewhat counter the "ireland is a neutral country, we don't need an air force" argument.

RMD · 24-02-2011 2:50pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This does somewhat counter the "ireland is a neutral country, we don't need an air force" argument.

This is still a neutral act, we're not in anyway being offensive to Libya, we're rescuing Irish citizens. We also need the Air Corps for maritime patrol, search and rescue, air ambulance, Garda helicopter, and I hate to say it but ministerial transport; which should be the least of priorities.

Morpheus · 24-02-2011 3:04pm

Why talk about neutrality? it has very little to do with a military led humanitarian mission which has been undertook by the aircorps under direction of the govt in order to provide assistance to irish citizens caught up in a very dangerous environment in a country which doesnt have a currently working justice or military system without protection. They are irish citizens and Ireland has a duty to them regardless of what some people here say about oil workers etc.

Anyway Since when has ireland been a constitutionaly neutral country? I certainly didnt vote on it in a referendum?

Ireland is not

and never has been

constitutionaly neutral.

we have a military foreign policy of non alignment on a case by case basis under the triple lock mechanism. i.e. fence sitting

if we WERE neutral,
A. we wouldnt be relying on the UK to defend our airspace
and B. we would have to INCREASE defence spending as we couldnt rely on other countries to defend us.

as a result, id counter with If ireland was neutral, we would STILL NEED an airforce to defend our own airspace.

twinytwo · 24-02-2011 3:05pm

RMD wrote: »

This is still a neutral act, we're not in anyway being offensive to Libya, we're rescuing Irish citizens. We also need the Air Corps for maritime patrol, search and rescue, air ambulance, Garda helicopter, and I hate to say it but ministerial transport; which should be the least of priorities.

This begs the questions what happens if we dont them out, Libya errupts in civil war... and the people we couldnt get out start being killed?. We surely cannot sit on the fence then.

PatsytheNazi · 24-02-2011 3:12pm

Morphéus wrote: »

Why talk about neutrality? it has very little to do with a military led humanitarian mission which has been undertook by the aircorps under direction of the govt in order to provide assistance to irish citizens caught up in a very dangerous environment in a country which doesnt have a currently working justice or military system without protection. They are irish citizens and Ireland has a duty to them regardless of what some people here say about oil workers etc.

Anyway Since when has ireland been a constitutionaly neutral country? I certainly didnt vote on it in a referendum?

Ireland is not

and never has been

constitutionaly neutral.

we have a military foreign policy of non alignment on a case by case basis under the triple lock mechanism. i.e. fence sitting

if we WERE neutral,
A. we wouldnt be relying on the UK to defend our airspace
and B. we would have to INCREASE defence spending as we couldnt rely on other countries to defend us.

as a result, id counter with If ireland was neutral, we would STILL NEED an airforce to defend our own airspace.

" A. we wouldnt be relying on the UK to defend our airspace " Really :eek: So, say, the people of Mullingar can sleep safely in their beds because allegedly, the selfless RAF are patrolling the skies above them making sure the Al Queda or something air force don't attack them !!!!

Fratton Fred · 24-02-2011 3:26pm

Morphéus wrote: »

Why talk about neutrality? it has very little to do with a military led humanitarian mission which has been undertook by the aircorps under direction of the govt in order to provide assistance to irish citizens caught up in a very dangerous environment in a country which doesnt have a currently working justice or military system without protection. They are irish citizens and Ireland has a duty to them regardless of what some people here say about oil workers etc.

Anyway Since when has ireland been a constitutionaly neutral country? I certainly didnt vote on it in a referendum?

Ireland is not

and never has been

constitutionaly neutral.

we have a military foreign policy of non alignment on a case by case basis under the triple lock mechanism. i.e. fence sitting

if we WERE neutral,
A. we wouldnt be relying on the UK to defend our airspace
and B. we would have to INCREASE defence spending as we couldnt rely on other countries to defend us.

as a result, id counter with If ireland was neutral, we would STILL NEED an airforce to defend our own airspace.

That was my point.

Any modern western country should be capable of pulling its citizens out of a crisis zone.

This perceived neutrality Ireland has is irrelevant in these situations.

Morpheus · 24-02-2011 3:31pm

Ah right, misread your comment

patsy... where do I start?

If you look for the information, you will find out that the irish govt has a legitimate agreement with uk to help provide both CAP and SAR support in Irish airspace if we request it.

this is straying way off topic, any update on the aircorps "maltese falcon" mission in malta?

BrianD · 24-02-2011 4:21pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This does somewhat counter the "ireland is a neutral country, we don't need an air force" argument.

If we were a militarily neutral control we'd have a large air force like the Swiss or Swedes. The fact is that we are neutral by convenience. The plane sent is a fishery patrol aircraft and assists in SAR. It's uses are more civilian than military.

So next time we do some thing like this the Defence Forces need to add a bag of gold sovereigns and a satellite phone to the check list.

Morpheus · 24-02-2011 4:57pm

no help when the libyans are jamming satellite phones!!!

Absurdum · 24-02-2011 5:51pm

Latest news is that Irish258 (Learjet) is evacuating a British casualty from Tripoli as the Brits currently don't have the capability to undertake the mission. The G4 is preparing to depart Baldonnell for Malta and possibly Tripoli with DFA officials.

The story with Casa 253 yesterday is still unclear, however it has nothing to do with bags of cash or satellite phones (or lack of :rolleyes:).

Tripoli airport is in chaos at the moment, there is nobody in charge. You can't just land an aircraft, walk into the terminal and pick out your passengers and then get on your way. Especially when there are 100's of armed and angry lads hanging around and you don't know what's going on. There are reports that Gaddafi's aircraft are attacking protesters in Tripoli.

Some people posting in this thread and other threads have no idea what they are talking about.

edit: just to add, the situation is changing/evolving literally by the minute, some of the above info is liable to change

gizmo555 · 24-02-2011 6:27pm

Absurdum wrote: »

The story with Casa 253 yesterday is still unclear, however it has nothing to do with bags of cash or satellite phones (or lack of :rolleyes:).

Tripoli airport is in chaos at the moment, there is nobody in charge. You can't just land an aircraft, walk into the terminal and pick out your passengers and then get on your way. Especially when there are 100's of armed and angry lads hanging around and you don't know what's going on. There are reports that Gaddafi's aircraft are attacking protesters in Tripoli.

Which makes the fact that a situation was allowed to arise where these aircrew could not maintain contact while on the ground in Tripoli immeasurably more serious.

Manic Moran · 24-02-2011 6:59pm

The story with Casa 253 yesterday is still unclear, however it has nothing to do with bags of cash or satellite phones (or lack of ).

Unless you have appropriate contacts in the DFA or DoD, that's a ballsy statement to make so definitively.

There is ample precedent for local officials making best use of chaos to make bribes of foreign governments. Even the mighty US paid Somali officials cold, hard cash in 'fees' to secure the safety of Americans during the evacuation in 1991. The story of the passengers of one flight in Tripoli having to come up with $2,000 would not be in any way incompatible with either history or local culture. The possibility should at least have been brought to the IAC's attention before they landed.

no help when the libyans are jamming satellite phones!!!

Portable military SatComs are not all that hard to carry around, and are much harder to jam. I'm sure the US would let the Irish take up a small amount of bandwidth had they asked.

Why talk about neutrality? it has very little to do with a military led humanitarian mission which has been undertook by the aircorps under direction of the govt in order to provide assistance to irish citizens caught up in a very dangerous environment in a country which doesnt have a currently working justice or military system without protection

It does if an over-reliance on the policy of neutrality has resulted in a position where the Air Corps is limited as to its options on how to undertake the humanitarian mission in question. As it stands, the Air Corps is wholly reliant on Tripoli airport operating at least to a functional level and sorting itself out. Were those Irish citizens working at the oil fields, there would be all but nothing the Irish could do. However, the British are very definitely thinking about sending a jaunt out to the oil fields directly and picking up their lads. Alternatively, if the airport were in total chaos (not the perceived chaos reported, but an honest to God free-for-all), the option of sending two or three transports, two empty for passengers, and one full of soldiers for security, maybe with a fighter flight to prevent against air intercepts, which could be carried out by such world superpowers as Portugal or Belgium, is not available to the Irish Air Corps because nobody's spent the money on the equipment to allow them to do it. No need for it, neutrality, you see.

NTM

Air Corps to collect Irish citizens from Libya

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