Michael Noonan - ''we should pay our way''. RTE radio one

squod · 24-02-2011 01:27PM #1

How many FG voters on here genuinely believe that we should voluntarily pay back the €100bn+ of bank debt incurred by the international derivatives traders and property developers who owe these banks?

123balltv · 24-02-2011 02:13PM

the poorest in society are bailing out the richest
I cry every week when I check my payslip ***** lets raid the dail if this
happened in any other Country :mad: there would be murder.
bring on 2012 I cant take anymore cuts lets end this

PeterIanStaker · 24-02-2011 02:20PM

It doesn't matter what government is elected.

FF and their friends in the race tent and banks have stripped the nation like a plague of locusts.

The 31st Dail may as well not bother coming in to work, because there's nothing they can do to even take the country off life support as it were.

seamus · 24-02-2011 02:22PM

123balltv wrote: »

the poorest in society are bailing out the richest

Yawn.

In fact the richest in society are propping up the poorest, who pay almost nothing in taxes and take a lot in benefits.

Triangla · 24-02-2011 02:24PM

Surely he means we should pay their way.

Me: never bought a house or took out loans in the 'boom', never unemployed, paying income tax since I was 16.

Them: speculators who took a risk, lost and now the idiots at the wheel will pay them back because they have no idea how these things actually work.

Clowns.

SEPT 23 1989 · 24-02-2011 02:27PM

seamus wrote: »

Yawn.

In fact the richest in society are propping up the poorest, who pay almost nothing in taxes and take a lot in benefits.

Every penny the poor have goes back into the economy

jimmycrackcorm · 24-02-2011 02:32PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Every penny the poor have goes back into the economy

As long as they don't live near the border.

starbelgrade · 24-02-2011 02:35PM

seamus wrote: »

Yawn.

In fact the richest in society are propping up the poorest, who pay almost nothing in taxes and take a lot in benefits.

Hardly.

Most of the taxes in the economy are generated by the middle classes, who you could hardly call rich. They pay far & above the most taxes out of any of the social classes and in proportion to what they earn, they pay the highest percentage.

And it will be the middle classes who will continue to pay the most in the term of paying for the IMF & bank bailouts.

And if FG take power, their plan is to hit the private sector middle class workers even harder in order to pay for middle class public sector wages rather than make the cut backs needed in that sector.

As far as getting easy cash into the economy, the middle class PAYE sector has always & will probably always be, easy pickings.

brianthebard · 24-02-2011 02:38PM

seamus wrote: »

Yawn.

In fact the richest in society are propping up the poorest, who pay almost nothing in taxes and take a lot in benefits.

Is that you Maggie? The dementia seems to have made you even less credible in your old age.

Gunsfortoys · 24-02-2011 02:40PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Hardly.

Most of the taxes in the economy are generated by the middle classes, who you could hardly call rich. They pay far & above the most taxes out of any of the social classes and in proportion to what they earn, they pay the highest percentage.

And it will be the middle classes who will continue to pay the most in the term of paying for the IMF & bank bailouts.

And if FG take power, their plan is to hit the private sector middle class workers even harder in order to pay for middle class public sector wages rather than make the cut backs needed in that sector.

As far as getting easy cash into the economy, the middle class PAYE sector has always & will probably always be, easy pickings.

This.

I work in the industry, I can tell you people on 100,000 a year are paying feck all and getting tax breaks through the nose.

seamus · 24-02-2011 02:42PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Hardly.

Most of the taxes in the economy are generated by the middle classes, who you could hardly call rich. They pay far & above the most taxes out of any of the social classes and in proportion to what they earn, they pay the highest percentage.

The top 25% of earners pay 80% of the tax in this country.

Proportion to income is largely irrelevant in terms of talk of "bailing out". Simple fact is that if any "bailing out" is to be done, then most of the money for that bailout will come from the wealthiest in society, not the "poor wurker" or the hard-pressed middle class.

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

Scroll down past the questionnaire. Big earners pay proportionally more of their income than any other group.

Rabble Rabble · 24-02-2011 02:43PM

seamus wrote: »

Yawn.

In fact the richest in society are propping up the poorest, who pay almost nothing in taxes and take a lot in benefits.

The poorest in net worth ( middle income people on negative equity) are clearly bailing out the richest. Fact.

Also keeping the lads in benefit going.

Monty Burnz · 24-02-2011 02:44PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Every penny the poor have goes back into the economy

Are we talking about those who work at the lower end of the pay scale, or those who don't work at all?

What qualifies as poor these days? Seeing as poverty is defined in relative terms, eliminating poverty is an impossibility. The best we can do is to see that everyone in society is fed, clothed, housed and has the opportunity to have their children educated.

Rabble Rabble · 24-02-2011 02:45PM

seamus wrote: »

The top 25% of earners pay 80% of the tax in this country.

Proportion to income is largely irrelevant in terms of talk of "bailing out". Simple fact is that if any "bailing out" is to be done, then most of the money for that bailout will come from the wealthiest in society, not the "poor wurker" or the hard-pressed middle class.

Have you got a source for that? The PAYE sector is where most of the money comes from - and I doubt if the PAYE take is even 80%.

Monty Burnz · 24-02-2011 02:46PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

And it will be the middle classes who will continue to pay the most in the term of paying for the IMF & bank bailouts.

And if FG take power, their plan is to hit the private sector middle class workers even harder in order to pay for middle class public sector wages rather than make the cut backs needed in that sector.

As far as getting easy cash into the economy, the middle class PAYE sector has always & will probably always be, easy pickings.

What?? I think you meant to say Labour - FG are the guys who want to see cuts in pay and numbers in the PS, Labour and the Shinners want no cuts. Fianna Failure are obviously irrelevant, as they'd probably do the opposite of whatever they say anyhow.

Rabble Rabble · 24-02-2011 02:47PM

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

This.

I work in the industry, I can tell you people on 100,000 a year are paying feck all and getting tax breaks through the nose.

No real money is earned by wage-earners with a few exceptions. Money earned by contractors, and self owned businesses can be hidden with expenses.

seamus · 24-02-2011 02:48PM

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Have you got a source for that? The PAYE sector is where most of the money comes from - and I doubt if the PAYE take is even 80%.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0828/1224277778361.html
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

Edited my post too late.

Dionysus · 24-02-2011 02:49PM

Triangla wrote: »

Surely he means we should pay their way.

Me: never bought a house or took out loans in the 'boom', never unemployed, paying income tax since I was 16.

Them: speculators who took a risk, lost and now the idiots at the wheel will pay them back because they have no idea how these things actually work.

Clowns.

Maith thú! 100% agree. Likewise with me. And now Fine Gael want to use my taxes to bail out these naive, idiotic, misguided, Sunday Independent-reading superficial morons who purchased houses at the height of the boom, while I eschewed it all paying my supposedly "dead money", rent, while the supposedly invincible Celtic Tiger materialists lived on money they didn't have.

It's disgusting to see the impending Fine Gael-led government promising to in effect prop up the property market with my taxes and defer the day when house prices will fall to affordable levels - i.e. four times a person's annual income. So much for a market economy. My taxes are going to be used by Fine Gael to keep me out of the property market, and reward those who fúcked-up during the boom. Fine Gael "fairness" my arse. Bribing corrupt bastards - even before they get into power.

Gunsfortoys · 24-02-2011 03:01PM

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

No real money is earned by wage-earners with a few exceptions. Money earned by contractors, and self owned businesses can be hidden with expenses.

Not necessarily.

Plenty of high wage-earners through companies get massive expenses too.

Brenireland · 24-02-2011 03:05PM

seamus wrote: »

Yawn.

In fact the richest in society are propping up the poorest, who pay almost nothing in taxes and take a lot in benefits.

Hi just seen your user name and I just had to say....Morning Seamus.

11:11 · 24-02-2011 03:05PM

Well, I am personally paying an extra €600 a year on top of what I already pay.

I work full-time, and don't actually get 'great' pay, but I get by (€19,000 a year). I can say I don't starve, I've somewhere to live and money on the side for whatever I need. I don't want wide-screen televisions, unlimited drinking money or spending spree money for crap I don't need.

People are biting off more than they can chew these days...even with this new tax, it's not impossible to get by as long as you actually work hard and take some personal financial sacrifices, and stop buying absolute **** you don't need.

As for the banks. Well. I don't want to pay for that. But I am forced. This is what we face.

Any ideas how to change that?

squod · 24-02-2011 03:20PM

11:11 wrote: »

Any ideas how to change that?

People have spent the last few months discussing that. Sen Shane Ross, David mcWilliams et al over on http://newvision.ie/wordpress/

Orando Broom · 24-02-2011 04:08PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

It doesn't matter what government is elected.

FF and their friends in the race tent and banks have stripped the nation like a plague of locusts.

The 31st Dail may as well not bother coming in to work, because there's nothing they can do to even take the country off life support as it were.

Aided and abetted by the opposition. Never forget there is a political class not a party class.

niallers1 · 24-02-2011 04:48PM

If you have a problem paying back other people loans, investments , gambling debts then vote for Sinn Fein or The socialist/United left alliance party..

If you are happy to pay back other people loans, investments , gambling debts then vote Labour, Fianna Fail or Fianna Gael.

Royal Irish · 24-02-2011 04:55PM

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

The poorest in net worth ( middle income people on negative equity) are clearly bailing out the richest. FACT.

Also keeping the lads in benefit going.

FYP. Fact has to be in caps to make it true.

starbelgrade · 24-02-2011 05:22PM

seamus wrote: »

The top 25% of earners pay 80% of the tax in this country.

Proportion to income is largely irrelevant in terms of talk of "bailing out". Simple fact is that if any "bailing out" is to be done, then most of the money for that bailout will come from the wealthiest in society, not the "poor wurker" or the hard-pressed middle class.

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

Scroll down past the questionnaire. Big earners pay proportionally more of their income than any other group.

I read that report & the other link you gave to the Irish Times article. I cannot see anywhere where it backs up your claim that the top 25% of earners pay 80% of the tax in this country.

In addition to this, PAYE is only half of the total tax take in this country - the other half comes from VAT. Value Added Tax is a highly inequitable tax as it costs everyone the same amount, regardless of their income.

I don't have any statistics to prove this, but I would hazard a guess that the 75% of people who aren't in the top 25% of top earners, would make up a significant part of the total VAT take each year.

seamus · 24-02-2011 06:21PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't have any statistics to prove this, but I would hazard a guess that the 75% of people who aren't in the top 25% of top earners, would make up a significant part of the total VAT take each year.

You wouldn't suggest though that they pay 75% of the VAT, right?

It's next to impossible to spend money without paying tax on it one way or another. If you buy products, you pay VAT. If you buy shares, you end up paying CGT and other income taxes on it. If you stick it into a savings account, you pay DIRT on the accrued interest (and end up paying VAT or whatever when they withdraw and spend that cash). Even you stick it all in a private pension, it comes back to the state eventually as an income tax.

So it stands to reason that a person who takes home €300k after income tax still pays ten times more into the exchequer than someone who takes home €30k. Now, granted ten times is probably a bit high; the person on €30k will likely spend most of their money on goods and services, the person on €300k will stick a significant amount in investments.
But it stands to reason that those with the most money probably still contribute a significant bulk of our indirect taxes as well as direct ones because they are spending the most money.

It simply doesn't support the assertion that the poor are supporting the rich. Quick figures for 2009 show that Income tax take was 12bn. If the top 5% of people contribute 6bn of that @ an average rate of 20% then the total pay of the top 5% is 30bn. If the average wage per capita is €30k x 2m workers, then the sum of cash earned by all workers in the year is €60bn. In other words, the top 5% are earning and spending around half the of the money in the economy at any given time.

Now that massive inequality aside, it stands to reason that the top 10 or 20% of the earners are therefore spending more than half of the money in the economy in a given year and therefore contributing more than half of the indirect taxes.

gcgirl · 24-02-2011 06:28PM

How many partook in SSIA's ?

Well they are well and truly clawing that euro back

Liam Byrne · 24-02-2011 06:50PM

If Noonan said "WE should pay OUR way", then I have no problem with that; I have, and always will, pay MY debts.

If, however, he wants me to pay OTHER PEOPLE'S WAYS, then he can feck off.

Or is there political doublespeak going on and was he saying "we'll pay AS WE SEE FIT" - i.e. "OUR WAY" ?

Think I've gone into political overload / hyperanalysis & sentence get-out-clause deconstruction after listening to FF all week.

Rabble Rabble · 24-02-2011 06:58PM

seamus wrote: »

You wouldn't suggest though that they pay 75% of the VAT, right?

It simply doesn't support the assertion that the poor are supporting the rich. Quick figures for 2009 show that Income tax take was 12bn. If the top 5% of people contribute 6bn of that @ an average rate of 20% then the total pay of the top 5% is 30bn. If the average wage per capita is €30k x 2m workers, then the sum of cash earned by all workers in the year is €60bn. In other words, the top 5% are earning and spending around half the of the money in the economy at any given time.

I think the poor subsidising the rich is meant to be us, subsidising the bankers, and the super rich non-taxpayers. Nobody is saying that the general taxation system prior to the banking bailout subsidised the normal rich.

That should have been obvious.

As for the rich and the poor, the wealth and income within the top 25% is more stratified than the wealth of the bottom 75%, and the welath and income of the top 1%, and probably the top 0.1% is also more stratified than the bottom 99%, or the bottom 99.9%.

In that reckoning the family on 100K are not that rich, nor are the family on 150K, or 200K.

These kind of people, often in the PAYE sector, pay their taxes. The subsidising of the super-rich ( or as I prefer rich, lets normalise) goes on because the super-rich often dont pay any taxes, and are bailed out for massive investments.

To pick an example from a different jurisdiction, which I will use to make the difference between the rich and the resr of us plain.

In 2005 Philip Green, founder of Top Shop earned 1.2B pounds. That's right. Billion. Numbers we cant even really fathom. But lets try:

Drawing his earnings on a graph which is 12 inches high, and with 12 ticks each ( therefore) representing £100M, he will appear at the top of the yaxis. My thought experiment is to see how relatively poor everybody else is,

If you earn, per annum:

1) £100M you are one inch from the bottom. Thats near the bottom of the graph.
2) £10 M you are 1/10 inch from the bottom. You are barely visible.
3) £1M you are 1/100 inch from the x-axis. Probably not visible.
4) £300K down. You are effectively on the x-axis. No printer will show you. You are statistically earning nothing compared to Green.

He didnt pay taxes as a non-Dom that year. Does he have investments, is he a bond holder? He could be. He is the kind of person the relative poor - the bottom 95% are subsidising.

Buceph · 24-02-2011 07:10PM

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

He didnt pay taxes as a non-Dom that year. Does he have investments, is he a bond holder? He could be. He is the kind of person the relative poor - the bottom 95% are subsidising.

I don't think anyone is saying that we should reimburse them because it's the morally correct thing to do. People are saying that we should honour the debt because the effects of not doing so would be catastrophic.

Personally, I'd go somewhere between Labour and FG's plans. But ultimately, I don't think it's a case of us negotiating with the EU. But the EU with Ireland a part of it, taking a stance on how the markets operate, how they should be corrected and how banks do business in the future. The current banking crisis isn't a purely Irish issue, and the bond situation isn't an Irish issue, it's a Eurozone issue. There have been calls from some Germans for a huge investigation into how the markets do business. It's just it's going to take Ireland living up to EU obligations in the mean time to ensure we as a European entity get to the point where the issues can be addressed at a global level.

Michael Noonan - ''we should pay our way''. RTE radio one

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