Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

RichardAnd · 21-02-2011 06:19PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The point is not about individual circumstances but that the disparity between public sector and private sector sick leave is too wide and needs to be addressed.

Ironically my OH is a nurse and whereas one time it might not have been a big deal to take a sick day, she would be unable to now because her ward has lost half their staff which aren't being replaced and she is unable to take any sick days because it would overburden her colleagues. As she jokes - it makes no difference coming when sick as the patients are all sick anyway.

Private sector unions are a rarity. Compare Aer Lingus with Ryanair.

The bolded section brings up another problem with the PS. The current recruitment embargo isn't sustainable in the long run and if real reform of the PS is going to happen, it will have to start taking on new staff at some point.

NWPat · 21-02-2011 06:28PM

fliball123 wrote: »

And quite rightly so IMO as long as we are paying over 20billion out more than we are taking in...we need to have a voice ... and when Enda comes in and one of the biggest policy winners with FG is the fact that he will cut the public sector...hense the rise in FG and the fail of Labour

Enda isn't promising a whole lot, a reduction over a number of years based on early retirement and redundancy. This will cost around 1 billion, which has to be borowed, and likely to lead to less and worse services.

Jaysoose · 21-02-2011 06:37PM

RichardAnd wrote: »

The bolded section brings up another problem with the PS. The current recruitment embargo isn't sustainable in the long run and if real reform of the PS is going to happen, it will have to start taking on new staff at some point.

But surely the embargo will have to stay in place until the actual real level of staff needed is identified. If the poster aboves OH doesnt want to take off sick as she will be impacting on her colleagues etc then this would be an indication that the levels of staffing are correcting themselves in this case and a case can be made for additional staff.

Just throwing people at a perceived staffing problem is never gonna fix the problem.

Treehouse72 · 21-02-2011 06:57PM

This whole discussion suggests that we have some choice in all this.

In reality, the PS folk here could win this debate and bring every contributor in the thread over to their view, and it still wouldn't make any difference. In other words, there is no argument that can be made that will change anything about forthcoming events.

What the PS must realise is this: you are proposing choices that do not exist. You might as well suggest that we use our gold, frankincense and myrrh reserves to pay the bills. Any proposal for avoiding further cuts is just as fanciful.

Renege on the bank bailout money, you say. That makes no difference whatsoever. None. Not a scintilla. The bailout money is nothing to do with the deficit. That deficit is €19b at the moment. The idea that the 4 year plan will make significant inroads into this sum is absurd given the laughable 2.75% growth rate projected in it that nobody believes anymore. Meaning there is no doubt that a large chunk of that €19b will still have to be borrowed come 2014/5 and beyond.

So are we seriously expecting the Germans to keep on sending us double-digit billions of euros for the guts of the next decade? Why in the name of God should we have any expectation they'll do that? Morally, how do we get the balls big enough to insist they do so?

What about all the rich people who pay too little tax, as so often mentioned in this thread? Never mind taxing them, you could just take all their money and it wouldn't change anything. Just take €20b off the richest echelon of Irish people and we'd be right back to square one in 2012 after that €20b plugs the 2011 deficit. Except, by 2012 we won't have the richest people in the country to tax any more because we'd have taken all their money!! D'oh! Is there another layer of people below that with another €20b to hit? Cool, let's take that too. Only, by 2013 we still have a €19b deficit, and again, another €20b worth of taxable wealthy people are wiped out. After that, do we go after the next €20b?

People who don't get any of this need to start internalising it fast, because this isn't rhetoric, this is the cast-iron reality of the situation.

ParkRunner · 21-02-2011 09:36PM

Treehouse72 wrote: »

This whole discussion suggests that we have some choice in all this.

In reality, the PS folk here could win this debate and bring every contributor in the thread over to their view, and it still wouldn't make any difference. In other words, there is no argument that can be made that will change anything about forthcoming events.

What the PS must realise is this: you are proposing choices that do not exist. You might as well suggest that we use our gold, frankincense and myrrh reserves to pay the bills. Any proposal for avoiding further cuts is just as fanciful.

Renege on the bank bailout money, you say. That makes no difference whatsoever. None. Not a scintilla. The bailout money is nothing to do with the deficit. That deficit is €19b at the moment. The idea that the 4 year plan will make significant inroads into this sum is absurd given the laughable 2.75% growth rate projected in it that nobody believes anymore. Meaning there is no doubt that a large chunk of that €19b will still have to be borrowed come 2014/5 and beyond.

So are we seriously expecting the Germans to keep on sending us double-digit billions of euros for the guts of the next decade? Why in the name of God should we have any expectation they'll do that? Morally, how do we get the balls big enough to insist they do so?

What about all the rich people who pay too little tax, as so often mentioned in this thread? Never mind taxing them, you could just take all their money and it wouldn't change anything. Just take €20b off the richest echelon of Irish people and we'd be right back to square one in 2012 after that €20b plugs the 2011 deficit. Except, by 2012 we won't have the richest people in the country to tax any more because we'd have taken all their money!! D'oh! Is there another layer of people below that with another €20b to hit? Cool, let's take that too. Only, by 2013 we still have a €19b deficit, and again, another €20b worth of taxable wealthy people are wiped out. After that, do we go after the next €20b?

People who don't get any of this need to start internalising it fast, because this isn't rhetoric, this is the cast-iron reality of the situation.

I can assure you as a public servant that this message, or something similar, has been delivered at least twice a week for the past three years. The perception that public servants are not fully aware of what is happening in the "real world" is mind boggling.

sarumite · 21-02-2011 10:41PM

EF wrote: »

I can assure you as a public servant that this message, or something similar, has been delivered at least twice a week for the past three years. The perception that public servants are not fully aware of what is happening in the "real world" is mind boggling.

I would agree....unfortunately it appears that the leaders of the PS union aren't in touch with what their members on the ground are fully aware of.

colsmiff · 21-02-2011 11:11PM

sarumite wrote: »

I would agree....unfortunately it appears that the leaders of the PS union aren't in touch with what their members on the ground are fully aware of.

To such an extent that, as employees of their respective unions, actually had their own union ( yes thats right!) fight against paycuts when asked to take one by the membership of the union they are representing. You couldn't make it up!

doomed · 21-02-2011 11:39PM

Anyone hoping that the budget deficit can be slashed by reduction in public sector pay alone is not really playing with the full deck.

If Ireland fired all its public servants in the morning you would still have a big hole in the public finances. The deficit comfortably exceeds the entire net (dont forget the taxes) cost of public pay. When you add in the social welfare costs that would ensue from having to add 300,000 to the dole queues and the huge loss of available spend in the economy it gets much worse. Leave aside the inconvenience caused by that big bloke in the hoodie taking your car because he wanted to and because there are no guards to arrest him.

That's an extreme example but the capacity to make major inroads in the deficit through the public sector is much less than people believe, so if that is the best we can come up with we are really don't have a paddle. There have already been significant cuts and they have been a drop in a bucket.

Like it or not we need both public and private sectors and each depends on the other.

By the way, is anyone making an extra effort to buy Irish products? That would be a start.

Chris_5339762 · 21-02-2011 11:46PM

No because the Irish products are too expensive.

I still cant conceive how an Irish product, home grown and transported here, is far, FAR more expensive than something grown in Germany and shipped to Ireland through Lidl.

Someone somewhere is still making a killing. How is Irish Pride bread about €1.60 per loaf yet the equivalent loaf in Aldi, just as good, is 65cents?

Japer · 22-02-2011 12:51AM

Where is the bread in Aldi made ? Surely it does not have the carbon footprint of being made in eastern Europe or China like most of what is in Aldi, as it needs to be kept fresh ?

If Irish workers can buy bread at 65 cents, and groceries at similar prices in Aldi, etc why do the public service unions use the cost of living excuse as the reason why public sector workers wages are € 20,000 more here compared with the UK ?

The_Thing · 22-02-2011 01:00AM

Japer wrote: »

Where is the bread in Aldi made ? Surely it does not have the carbon footprint of being made in eastern Europe or China like most of what is in Aldi, as it needs to be kept fresh ?

If Irish workers can buy bread at 65 cents, and groceries at similar prices in Aldi, etc why do the public service unions use the cost of living excuse as the reason why public sector workers wages are € 20,000 more here compared with the UK ?

if you had ever been to Lidl you'd know that they don't sell everything.

The_Thing · 22-02-2011 01:08AM

srsly78 wrote: »

How the feck did this guy pass?

My aunt worked in HR

colsmiff · 22-02-2011 02:20AM

Japer wrote: »

Where is the bread in Aldi made ? Surely it does not have the carbon footprint of being made in eastern Europe or China like most of what is in Aldi, as it needs to be kept fresh ?

If Irish workers can buy bread at 65 cents, and groceries at similar prices in Aldi, etc why do the public service unions use the cost of living excuse as the reason why public sector workers wages are € 20,000 more here compared with the UK ?

My missus is visiting the UK this week and just took 5 people out for a pub lunch- total cost £24- her text to me tonight-"Feck me its expensive living in Ireland"

Now would you like to restate the need for IE salaries to be equivalent to the UK?

maninasia · 22-02-2011 06:47AM

Ask her if the food was good in that UK pub, in my experience it is not. In fact some of the worst food I ever ate was recently in a UK chain pub.

maninasia · 22-02-2011 06:53AM

Jaysoose wrote: »

But surely the embargo will have to stay in place until the actual real level of staff needed is identified. If the poster aboves OH doesnt want to take off sick as she will be impacting on her colleagues etc then this would be an indication that the levels of staffing are correcting themselves in this case and a case can be made for additional staff.

Just throwing people at a perceived staffing problem is never gonna fix the problem.

Obviously you need young blood coming in and also to be training replacements, the whole way it is managed is ridiculous!

TRSJ · 22-02-2011 08:05AM

isn't this the whole reason why Labour are sliding down in the polls each day. They refuse to stand up to the unions and address this unfair society they want where they look after their vested interests in the unions. Keep the pay higher in the public sector at the expense of the needy in our society. Unless Labour are prepared to stand up for all our society they will get a much smaller vote in this election than they were hoping for.

NWPat · 22-02-2011 09:34AM

TRSJ wrote: »

isn't this the whole reason why Labour are sliding down in the polls each day. They refuse to stand up to the unions and address this unfair society they want where they look after their vested interests in the unions. Keep the pay higher in the public sector at the expense of the needy in our society. Unless Labour are prepared to stand up for all our society they will get a much smaller vote in this election than they were hoping for.

No, this is your blinkered and biased view of recent opinion polls.

RichardAnd · 22-02-2011 09:41AM

Jaysoose wrote: »

But surely the embargo will have to stay in place until the actual real level of staff needed is identified. If the poster aboves OH doesnt want to take off sick as she will be impacting on her colleagues etc then this would be an indication that the levels of staffing are correcting themselves in this case and a case can be made for additional staff.

Just throwing people at a perceived staffing problem is never gonna fix the problem.

That's not what I meant. What I was saying was that any organisation can't function long term without new people coming in. In some civil service departments, the result of reqruitment bans in the 80s are very clear in that there are a bunch of people in their 50s-60, no one in their 40s and then a bunch in their 20s-30s. That kind of staff mix isn't very healthy and it will lead to stagnation over time as there will be no new skills coming into the organisation.

Hiring people for the sake of it isn't the way to go but I would hope that, as part of reform, the PS begins to hire people when needed for certain jobs.

thebman · 22-02-2011 10:41AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

That's not what I meant. What I was saying was that any organisation can't function long term without new people coming in. In some civil service departments, the result of reqruitment bans in the 80s are very clear in that there are a bunch of people in their 50s-60, no one in their 40s and then a bunch in their 20s-30s. That kind of staff mix isn't very healthy and it will lead to stagnation over time as there will be no new skills coming into the organisation.

Hiring people for the sake of it isn't the way to go but I would hope that, as part of reform, the PS begins to hire people when needed for certain jobs.

Or evaluate performance and let the bottom 5% go and hire new people, motivated people assuming performance is below a reasonable base performance level.

fliball123 · 22-02-2011 01:03PM

k_mac wrote: »

Why should someone on certified sick leave receive a strike? What about people who keep getting pregnant? Or someone who gets confined to a wheelchair? Should they be strikes too?

Don't unions also represent private sector workers? What makes you think the public sector aren't sick of their representatives too?

Read it again continuously sick...is different to being on sick leave if they have a docs note well and good if not strike1

fliball123 · 22-02-2011 01:07PM

NWPat wrote: »

Enda isn't promising a whole lot, a reduction over a number of years based on early retirement and redundancy. This will cost around 1 billion, which has to be borowed, and likely to lead to less and worse services.

True but its more than any other party and if Labour get in sure the CPA will be kept which IMO will completely kill whats left of a badly wounded animal

fliball123 · 22-02-2011 01:13PM

EF wrote: »

I can assure you as a public servant that this message, or something similar, has been delivered at least twice a week for the past three years. The perception that public servants are not fully aware of what is happening in the "real world" is mind boggling.

Have you not been reading some of the stuff coming out of some of the ps posters on here???

fliball123 · 22-02-2011 01:17PM

doomed wrote: »

Anyone hoping that the budget deficit can be slashed by reduction in public sector pay alone is not really playing with the full deck.

If Ireland fired all its public servants in the morning you would still have a big hole in the public finances. The deficit comfortably exceeds the entire net (dont forget the taxes) cost of public pay. When you add in the social welfare costs that would ensue from having to add 300,000 to the dole queues and the huge loss of available spend in the economy it gets much worse. Leave aside the inconvenience caused by that big bloke in the hoodie taking your car because he wanted to and because there are no guards to arrest him.

That's an extreme example but the capacity to make major inroads in the deficit through the public sector is much less than people believe, so if that is the best we can come up with we are really don't have a paddle. There have already been significant cuts and they have been a drop in a bucket.

Like it or not we need both public and private sectors and each depends on the other.

By the way, is anyone making an extra effort to buy Irish products? That would be a start.

No one is saying that..but how is fair that we are getting increases in taxes and all other areas of spend

public services
dole
pensions

are all being cut the only sacred lamb is ps pay

ardmacha · 22-02-2011 01:25PM

pensions

Pensions increased more than PS pay in the boom. Pensions, other than PS pensions, have not been cut.

Gumbo · 22-02-2011 01:45PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Have you not been reading some of the stuff coming out of some of the ps posters on here???

Have you not been reading some of the stuff coming out of some of the ps bashing posters on here???

it works both ways.................

fliball123 · 22-02-2011 01:46PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Pensions increased more than PS pay in the boom. Pensions, other than PS pensions, have not been cut.

Hasnt the rate of Interest relief going forward been cut from 40% to 33%...I agree existing pensioners on pension have not been hit..and this is another area that needs to be looked at

fliball123 · 22-02-2011 01:49PM

kceire wrote: »

Have you not been reading some of the stuff coming out of some of the ps bashing posters on here???

it works both ways.................

Hang on I was responding to a specific comment that people in the ps are reminded every day that the country is up its own hole in debt and yet there is still no proof of any significant savings being made...but sure proof in the pudding if the cpa is still in tact come december it means the ps have sufficiently pulled a coup and made the savings required...and fair play to them..If they get a cut in december its their own fault for not making the savings that they were asked to make

Gumbo · 22-02-2011 01:59PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Hang on I was responding to a specific comment that people in the ps are reminded every day that the country is up its own hole in debt and yet there is still no proof of any significant savings being made...

what proof do you want? surely if money is being saved then we wont know the figures involved until January 2012?

noodler · 22-02-2011 02:29PM

NWPat wrote: »

No, this is your blinkered and biased view of recent opinion polls.

Well, in your oponion by the same token.

I always felt it nationally irresponsible for Labour not to support the Croke Park deal fully from the off.

More recently? Their flip-flopping on numeous issues has become more apparent for me.

kceire wrote: »

what proof do you want? surely if money is being saved then we wont know the figures involved until January 2012?

Well, in fairness, the CP Deal has been in effect for almost a year now without any real signs of savings. You'll probably blame the Government here although many others feel it was a number of people in the PS dragging their feet (*for obvious reasons).

Even if no progress has been made yet, some quantification of savings to be made would be nice.

NWPat · 22-02-2011 02:29PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Hang on I was responding to a specific comment that people in the ps are reminded every day that the country is up its own hole in debt and yet there is still no proof of any significant savings being made...but sure proof in the pudding if the cpa is still in tact come december it means the ps have sufficiently pulled a coup and made the savings required...and fair play to them..If they get a cut in december its their own fault for not making the savings that they were asked to make

This statement is untrue and shows you have no idea about this subject. If you had any real concerns you would have visited this site
http://implementationbody.gov.ie/home/
and seen that in 2010 1.8 billion was saved by the introduction of the pension levy and a series of pay cuts.

Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

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