Why are bad teachers allowed to teach

galwayrush · 21-02-2011 11:52PM

OPENROAD wrote: »

Do we not have a system like they have in some other countries, where schools are rated by exam results?

Results are available, (we used them to chose which school we sent our kids to), but not easily available.;)

OPENROAD · 21-02-2011 11:59PM

crayolastereo wrote: »

Those systems are unfair on disadvantaged areas, and in any case we don't have any kind of system.

Shouldn't parents have the right to send kids to the schools where they will get the best education. I appreciate education should be more than just LC results, but sadly it is not when it comes to getting into college/university.

Smartly Dressed · 22-02-2011 12:00AM

In my teenage years, you can imagine that I came across a lot of things that made me angry and annoyed.

I can tell you, though, that nothing has ever pissed me off more than watching lazy, careless, old (and sometimes disgusting) teachers piss around for the final years of their teaching career, just passing the time until they could retire to their pensions.

One teacher in particular springs to mind. He would often spend double classes photocopying sheets so that he wouldn't have to teach us and when he couldn't escape, he would often consult with the best student in the class on how to do a particular question because he didn't know himself.

Depressingly, I can think of 3 other people who were exactly like the aforementioned teacher. I'm not naive enough to think that it's something new or exclusive to my school, but everyone knows that this goes on and yet nothing is ever done because it's Ireland, and we wouldn't want to fall out with the neighbours, now, would we?

Chuchoter · 22-02-2011 12:01AM

OPENROAD wrote: »

Shouldn't parents have the right to send kids to the schools where they will get the best education. I appreciate education should be more than just LC results, but sadly it is not when it comes to getting into college/university.

I can't go to loads of schools because I'm not in the catchment. If you live in a bad area, you're stuck in a bad school.

steddyeddy · 22-02-2011 12:07AM

paulmr wrote: »

yes you might not see stupid remarks but many students would rate their teacher on what happened in class today or yesterday or on one particular incident or memory of that teachers class and not on the totality of their experience in that teachers class. How many students would be influenced by their peers. Also people all learn in different ways and what works for one student might not work for another so while one student will rate their teacher as excellent the person beside them may rate that same teacher as very poor.

I absolutely agree that there are bad teachers out there but as yet I dont see how a teacher can be properly and fairly evaluated and certainly not by their students.

in fairness there are some people who have legitimate concerns on that site ect, kids and teenagers are people too with rights and expectations. Several people on this thread said they stated their case to the principal and had it dismissed. Certainly not by their students? Surely the people being taught (or not as in some cases) are best to evaluate the teacher. My teacher never came in for example, I was a student when I made that judgement and it was right. Care to tell me why I shouldnt have evalutated that teacher as being useless?

Or a reason why Landyn Orange Tv shouldnt have evaluated her teacher as useless.

galwayrush · 22-02-2011 12:08AM

crayolastereo wrote: »

I can't go to loads of schools because I'm not in the catchment. If you live in a bad area, you're stuck in a bad school.

We got ours into a school outside our catchment area.

steddyeddy · 22-02-2011 12:11AM

crayolastereo wrote: »

The entire education system is set up for students, yet their opinions count for nothing?

spot on

ride-the-spiral · 22-02-2011 12:12AM

It's so very annoying that teacher's are not as performance based as other professions. The worst part is that if you say you have a bad teacher, as long as they show up and make it look like they're teaching you the syllabus, you get told something along the lines of: "It's not your teacher's fault if you do badly!"

We have one Irish teacher who is just terrible, everybody who's ever had her has agreed and some teacher's have even agreed in a roundabout way. The worst part is that us (The higher irish class) have had her for each of our six years in school, and even now the best of us find it hard to string a fully grammatically correct sentence together.

There are some teachers who are approaching retirement and still have a genuine interest in teaching and will go above and beyond the call of duty to teach well. We even have teachers who you can see honestly don't care, but they still realise that they're getting paid to teach and will do their hours to the best of their ability.

Any other job, and a bad performance is punished, but there's just nothing can be done about a bad teacher.

Blatter · 22-02-2011 12:15AM

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Why are bad students allowed to stude?

My teechers wear great.

Your English teacher obviously wasn't.

Aoifey! · 22-02-2011 12:16AM

I agree that is it very difficult to work out which teachers are good or bad, but some teachers are just obviously not meant to be in the job. The checking of techers in this country is horrendous.

There was one teacher in particular in my school that was awful. She was (and still is) the only Music teacher and also taught History and CSPE. In first year I had her for all 3, and 2 until Junior Cert. There were 4 History classes and she only taught one. For the Junior Cert her class had about 50% doing ordinary whereas every other class had about 10%, and this happened almost every year she had a Junior Cert class. For Music, I don't thihnk she has had the numbers for a Leaving Cert Music class for 10 years as she is such an awful teacher, but a massive amount did it outside school. There were multiple complaints from dirrerent class groups, but not one was she inspected whilst I was there.

There should be regular inspections (or at least of teachers who have had multiple complaints against them). Bad teachers can made a student despise a subject they mat have otherwise very much enjoyed.

steddyeddy · 22-02-2011 12:18AM

Just to say there seems to be a attitude here that teenagers and kids cannot judge teaching standard and that to some degree is true

However a lot of what has been mentioned here has been a contra indication to being a teacher it wasnt about how well a subject was taught it was about a subject not being taught, a lack of effort, the absense of the teacher very few posts are about people making an effort to teach and falling short. Most complaints are about people who shouldnt be in the job and yet all these observations have been "wrong" because we were students when we made them.

OPENROAD · 22-02-2011 12:21AM

Aoifey! wrote: »

I agree that is it very difficult to work out which teachers are good or bad, but some teachers are just obviously not meant to be in the job. The checking of techers in this country is horrendous.

There was one teacher in particular in my school that was awful. She was (and still is) the only Music teacher and also taught History and CSPE. In first year I had her for all 3, and 2 until Junior Cert. There were 4 History classes and she only taught one. For the Junior Cert her class had about 50% doing ordinary whereas every other class had about 10%, and this happened almost every year she had a Junior Cert class. For Music, I don't thihnk she has had the numbers for a Leaving Cert Music class for 10 years as she is such an awful teacher, but a massive amount did it outside school. There were multiple complaints from dirrerent class groups, but not one was she inspected whilst I was there.

There should be regular inspections (or at least of teachers who have had multiple complaints against them). Bad teachers can made a student despise a subject they mat have otherwise very much enjoyed.

Should it not be a case of judging them by exam results in comparison to other classes/subjects in the school?

Junco Partner · 22-02-2011 12:31AM

Craebear wrote: »

Because it's Ireland and in Ireland sure isn't everything grand.

i hadnt realised teaching was a job exclusive to this grand country.

byhookorbycrook · 22-02-2011 12:32AM

galwayrush wrote: »

It's not possible to sack the crapy teacher, no matter how bad they do in such a visit.

Incorrect ,at primary anyhow.

Aoifey! · 22-02-2011 12:38AM

OPENROAD wrote: »

Should it not be a case of judging them by exam results in comparison to other classes/subjects in the school?

But what if they get a particularly bad class group and no matter how good of a teacher, the grades are over all poor?

Although if they were continuously bad then it could work.

byhookorbycrook · 22-02-2011 12:52AM

If a results regime is enforced, schools will try to cherry pick students, discourage the enrolement of children with special needs and teach only to the syllabus.

whydoibother? · 22-02-2011 01:23AM

Personally I'm ok with teachers teaching to the syllabus. Is the syllabus that bad? Considering some of the horsesh$it I was taught in primary school, I'd love if the syllabus was more focused on the three R's and teachers were obliged to stick to it. It would set kids up much better for secondary school, now that we're slipping in the world-rankings. I had hours upon hours of Irish dancing, knitting and singing. The teacher would never have gotten away with it if there had been boys in the class. I think that's what gets me the most. She took advantage of the fact that we were all girls. Irish dancing was instead of PE because she was old and didn't want anything like a sport where we might run away from her. Better to keep us contained. Irish and maths were kept to a minimum. This was all in a Confirmation year where there's enough time being wasted on that.

Chuchoter · 22-02-2011 01:29AM

Personally I think they should bring back in the Primary Cert (modernized) to force primary teachers to do what they are supposed to be doing.

Br4tPr1nc3 · 22-02-2011 01:34AM

because those who cant do, teach.

**** teachers cant teach, so they teach.

th3 s1aught3r · 22-02-2011 01:54AM

When I was in secondary school I had a particulary bad French teacher for the leaving cert. Everyone knew she was a bad and disinterested teacher.
Some students went to the principal about her but nothing was ever done :rolleyes:

kowloon · 22-02-2011 04:07AM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If a results regime is enforced, schools will try to cherry pick students, discourage the enrolement of children with special needs and teach only to the syllabus.

When I was in school, a fair while back, the headmaster would have meetings with students with poor results and put pressure on them to leave. It was a private school, so the results were quite important to them.

Not sure if anything like that happens now, but if it doesn't a result rating system would bring the practice back very quickly.

Twee. · 22-02-2011 04:33AM

Knowing a lot about your subject doesn't make you a good teacher. I've found this to be very true in college. Lecturers have masters and PHDs in their subject, along with some degree in education and teaching, yet they aren't good teachers.

Those teachers who know a lot do fine with the average and above average students who can understand the content and just trot along. It takes a special kind of person to persevere with the struggling or troublesome students. It can happen very often that a teacher is the only person a student can confide in, an adult they can trust.

I've had a rake of excellent teachers, and what they all have in common is charisma, confidence, knowledge, authority (firm but fair!) and positive attitudes. In particular I had great, passionate English teachers. After handing in a few high scoring essays in college I was asked where I went to school because "they did a great job"

.

The teachers I found to be crap were lacking in confidence and authority. They allowed students to dictate the class and had no idea how to deal with teenagers. If you show weakness you're setting yourself up for failure! In 6th year we had a recent graduate come in to teach us choir. She came in shouting about rules, taking names for detention, banging things on the desk. We had no respect for her because we knew it was an act she put on to make us fear her. After a few weeks she chilled out and got to know us, and let go of that angry voice! The class was better behaved and far more productive.

GOOD teachers are a special breed. Anyone can learn a syllabus, but really teaching it is the problem. My aunt is a teacher and the biggest compliment she can pay someone is telling them that they'd make a great teacher. In her opinion, it does take a certain personality.

Adrian009 · 22-02-2011 04:35AM

De Dannan wrote: »

I believe that this is one of the most important jobs in the world. A good teacher is worth their weight in gold and should be paid a lot more than they are imo. By the same token a bad teacher can destroy a childs interest in learning forever and should be not be allowed to continue
How many poor teachers have been removed from their posts, and if not, why not ??

Why are bad singers allowed to sing? At least they have auto-tune ...

Dionysus · 22-02-2011 05:34AM

De Dannan wrote: »

Why are bad teachers allowed to teach

Why are "bad"/disruptive kids allowed in classes where they can undermine the education of the kids who want to learn?

Dionysus · 22-02-2011 05:41AM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If a results regime is enforced, schools will try to cherry pick students, discourage the enrolement of children with special needs and teach only to the syllabus.

Precisely. Each teacher should have his/her own little entrance test already written up and anybody with special needs, well they can't get in; anybody with a discipline issue, well they too are out; anybody with a low IQ well they also are not allowed in....

With the stroke of a pen the teachers in schools in socially-deprived areas will overnight have as few discipline problems as affluent areas, and one-third of the numbers of students in each class that they previously had.

Dionysus · 22-02-2011 06:04AM

Badgermonkey wrote: »

3 months paid holiday, early retirement & decent pension sounds enticing to me.

A fully-qualified teacher starting off earns €33,041 + c. €2500 = €35,541/52 = €683 gross per week. Not exactly a fortune by any standard. This is for teaching class sizes of up to 30 students each and taking into account the huge cutback in learning support which allowed the most troublesome kids to be removed for extra help. In socially-deprived areas up to half of a class could be entitled to some resource or learning support need. Others will not even be diagnosed because the funding is not there to pay for the educational psychologist.

In many cases, the state is getting one teacher to do the job of two teachers and a couple of SNAs. Something's going to give, and when all is said and done it's the kids who are going to suffer. It may take five or ten years for society to feel its effects, but in 2011 the writing's on the wall.

SpatialPlanning · 22-02-2011 07:02AM

There is one issue I have with the education system as an outsider looking in, though I do not know if it should be directed at incompetent/lazy teachers or an ineffective assessment procedure.

Teachers always seem to be their busiest coming up to inspection time. Why is this? Why should their efforts increase only when they are to be held accountable for the quality of their work? Should a teacher not be equally prepared for every other lesson? If not, why are assessments so overwhelming? Would a better solution be to introduce more frequent, or even unannounced, year-round checks to ensure a teacher is maintaining their standards?

maninasia · 22-02-2011 07:25AM

liah wrote: »

I think it's more a case of the position not being enticing enough, in terms of hours or pay or treatment or whatever else, to attract people to the profession.

I don't actually know what it's like in Ireland, but when I was in school in Canada the teachers weren't paid that well, would work a lot of overtime, and had to attempt to control around 30 unruly and disrespectful teenagers who were obsessed with making life hell for them. I can kind of see why the job isn't the most attractive one. Even teachers who start out good eventually get broken down by year after year of trouble-causing kids.

I think if wages were increased for teachers (again, not sure if this is already the case in Ireland) it may draw in more competition as it would be seen as a more desirable job, and then employers could afford to be more picky with who they want to hire as teachers as there would be a larger pool of options.

Right now I just don't think there's enough teachers to allow schools to be picky in who they hire, full stop.

I could just be wildly misinformed though and talking out of my arse.

Yes, you are talking out of your arse..every point you raised is irrelevant or plain wrong!

maninasia · 22-02-2011 07:26AM

Hank_Jones wrote: »

Unions most likely.

Great documentary called "Waiting for Superman" about the subject of children's education in the US and how teachers can't be fired because of the system that protects them.

Unions AND parents expectations, immature society at large.

Azureus · 22-02-2011 08:12AM

Dionysus wrote: »

A fully-qualified teacher starting off earns €33,041 + c. €2500 = €35,541/52 = €683 gross per week. Not exactly a fortune by any standard. This is for teaching class sizes of up to 30 students each and taking into account the huge cutback in learning support which allowed the most troublesome kids to be removed for extra help. In socially-deprived areas up to half of a class could be entitled to some resource or learning support need. Others will not even be diagnosed because the funding is not there to pay for the educational psychologist.

In many cases, the state is getting one teacher to do the job of two teachers and a couple of SNAs. Something's going to give, and when all is said and done it's the kids who are going to suffer. It may take five or ten years for society to feel its effects, but in 2011 the writing's on the wall.

That pay scale is also not bad by any means! In my opinion, teaching is a vocation; some people are born to do it/can get their points across well/maintain a class interest, others are just not bothered because they have they 'oh i dont get paid enough' mentality. Yes, it is about the money to an extent-its why people work in the first place-but with a job like teaching surely there should be more to it than that? Otherwise why go into that profession in the first place? Personally I think it's because it has a reputation as an easy ride (holidays etc) and people assume its going to be an easier job than it is in actuality.

Class sizes are too big and I agree that education funding for special needs etc definately needs to increase massively/have more dedicated exclusively to it, but thats beside the point here. Fact is, a lot of teachers sit back on their laurels and expect to read the syllabus out loud and get paid for it, because theyve done their time getting their qualifications and it's simply not good enough. It's the typical Celtic Tiger sense of entitlement. I had way too many teachers like this (and that's excluding the one who sat with his feet on the desk slugging whiskey).

That said, I had some fantastic English and Science teachers in secondary school, and I will never forget my 4th class primary teacher who was the most innovative woman I have ever met! It really makes a difference when you've people who care about their jobs.

Why are bad teachers allowed to teach

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